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Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #13
Checking the Bandits .exs file, it seems that Marx wasn't behind the lumber camp massacre. That was another bunch, and you walk in during negotiations about an alliance. Yeah, Marx tries to kill the party... that's been hired to kill him. Not that unreasonable.

I think the reason why Marx comes off as so much more sympathetic than Pinochet is that he has motives. Not that they're necessarily good ones, but just the fact that they're there makes him better by comparison.

In reference to Marx being presumed alive in Bandits 2, considering that the party is placed in a situation where they can decide the outcome, I assume that it would be natural to expect them to make the 'right' choice.

Thuryl - I agree very much with most of your comments, especially Changing Faces. The first time I played it I got stuck shortly before the end. It was better that way.

[ Wednesday, May 12, 2004 04:38: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum Editor
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Whoops. I guess my memory of that scenario is a bit hazy. I certainly don't remember anything about Marx murdering his wife.

In reference to Sauron, there are reasons behind his actions, if you really want to study the Silmarillion.

[ Wednesday, May 12, 2004 04:09: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #11
Whoops. I guess my memory of that scenario is a bit hazy. I certainly don't remember anything about Marx murdering his wife.

In reference to Sauron, there are reasons behind his actions, if you really want to study the Silmarillion.

[ Wednesday, May 12, 2004 04:09: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum Editor
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #4
quote:
Originally written by TM Revolution:

Just curious here, but how does Bandits not allow you to choose your side? If nothing else, you will probably be forced to side with Pinochet. If you side with Marx, it's only 'cuz you chose to. (And I'm not sure how a political story could be told in ~10 towns, half of them being "extras".)

And that said, are you absolutely sure that Pinochet represents "mainstream" capitalism? The mayor's namesake- Augusto Pinochet- was a man who charged into Chile at the order of the US and assassinated the elected, Socialist president of Chile and set up a Despotism. He had no scruples, and neither did his counterpart in my scenario. Pinochet (imperialist Capitalism) murdered, Marx murdered (imperialist Communism). Heck, Marx is a BANDIT after all- I never go out and say that he's good. I'm afraid you're more-or-less interpolating from my political standpoint rather than taking it for what it is.

A. You don't actually force the party to side with Marx, but you do paint Pinochet big, bad and black while Marx is presented as the victim. He is never portrayed as doing anything bad - sure, he leads a bunch of bandits against the evil mayor, but he's just trying to get his family back. Also, the sequel assumes that you sided with Marx.

B. Did I say anything about mainstream capitalism either? If, as you say, Bandits is about imperialist Capitalism vs imperialist Communism, it still leans heavily in favour of the latter.

I'm not having a go at viewpoints here, just techniques. The "Family is important" moral of Baba Yaga was handled just as clumsily, but I used Bandits as an example because the moral is central to the entire scenario rather than tacked on at the end.

Vent - The pollution is there, causing problems. It's bad. Why is it there? Magical waste produced by schoolkids (or something). It's clearly based on modern-day pollution, since it doesn't make much sense in a fantasy setting. The scenario ignores all the difficult issues associated with pollution (such as how to fix it - there's a handy mechanism that no one bothered to activate before they left) and just makes a dodgy villain out of it.

[ Tuesday, May 11, 2004 18:50: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #4
quote:
Originally written by TM Revolution:

Just curious here, but how does Bandits not allow you to choose your side? If nothing else, you will probably be forced to side with Pinochet. If you side with Marx, it's only 'cuz you chose to. (And I'm not sure how a political story could be told in ~10 towns, half of them being "extras".)

And that said, are you absolutely sure that Pinochet represents "mainstream" capitalism? The mayor's namesake- Augusto Pinochet- was a man who charged into Chile at the order of the US and assassinated the elected, Socialist president of Chile and set up a Despotism. He had no scruples, and neither did his counterpart in my scenario. Pinochet (imperialist Capitalism) murdered, Marx murdered (imperialist Communism). Heck, Marx is a BANDIT after all- I never go out and say that he's good. I'm afraid you're more-or-less interpolating from my political standpoint rather than taking it for what it is.

A. You don't actually force the party to side with Marx, but you do paint Pinochet big, bad and black while Marx is presented as the victim. He is never portrayed as doing anything bad - sure, he leads a bunch of bandits against the evil mayor, but he's just trying to get his family back. Also, the sequel assumes that you sided with Marx.

B. Did I say anything about mainstream capitalism either? If, as you say, Bandits is about imperialist Capitalism vs imperialist Communism, it still leans heavily in favour of the latter.

I'm not having a go at viewpoints here, just techniques. The "Family is important" moral of Baba Yaga was handled just as clumsily, but I used Bandits as an example because the moral is central to the entire scenario rather than tacked on at the end.

Vent - The pollution is there, causing problems. It's bad. Why is it there? Magical waste produced by schoolkids (or something). It's clearly based on modern-day pollution, since it doesn't make much sense in a fantasy setting. The scenario ignores all the difficult issues associated with pollution (such as how to fix it - there's a handy mechanism that no one bothered to activate before they left) and just makes a dodgy villain out of it.

[ Tuesday, May 11, 2004 18:50: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum Editor
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #0
A lot of designers like to weave a bit of a moral into their scenarios. I'm not going to tell anyone not to do this, as I think the intent is good, even if the results are often quite poor. However, I will warn you to be very, very careful, as even the best designers are capable of screwing it up quite badly.

When done right, this can add an extra dimension to a scenario - you aren't just playing light entertainment, there's something much deeper to it. When done badly, you'll get reviews complaining about Big Important Ideas and that the scenario has a Point To Make. No one enjoys a lecture.

The most obvious example is The Valley of Dying Things. This scenario's theme can be summed up very simply - "Pollution is bad". Pollution is turned into some sort of cheesy villain. It has no motives or reason to exist in this game - I mean, it's just called 'waste'. It comes from a magical school, which apparently spent a large portion of time creating this deadly non-descript sludge. Why? No idea. What kind of bizarre magical procedure produced this stuff? No idea. What was so important that they decided it was worth the risk? No idea. We are told "pollution is bad" - but we're never told why it exists.

If you're going to address an issue, you need to address it properly and fully. Throwing in a moral without exploring the issue properly is asking for trouble.

Now, VoDT is hardly the worst offender in these cases. The scenario Bandits is a thinly-veiled lecture on the evils of Capitalism. The hero is called Karl Marx, and Capitalism (embodied in Mayor Pinochet) is portrayed as an incredibly greedy, evil entity. The characters are simply caricatures, espousing their various ideologies - the good of all (Communism) as opposed to intense self-interest and greed, greed, greed (Capitalism). It's about as subtle as a sledgehammer in a bowl of soup.

I firmly believe that as a designer and storyteller, you should never villify any point of view. Don't paint your baddies big and black - try to see them as they see themselves. No one believes they are evil. People who work at power plants don't see themselves as environmental vandals - they are providing a much-needed service to the community. Those who admire the principles of capitalism don't see themselves as greedy, grasping overlords - they believe in rewarding hard work and innovation. Even Hitler believed he was purifying the human race.

A scenario that does it right: Nephil's Gambit. Central to this game is the character Commander Groul. He's charismatic, intensely intelligent, resourceful, and brave. He's a hero. He also has no scruples whatsoever.

Commander Groul believes that the end justifies the means, whatever those means may be. He engineers a war for himself to win, so he can win favour and take power. Your adversary is not a cackling, black-robed, evil-loving wizard away in a dark tower - he's the hero of your country.

Nephil's Gambit doesn't hit you over the head with "The end does not justify the means". Instead, it takes Groul's point of view to it's natural conclusion, weaves a masterful story, and lets you decide for yourself. Do you follow Groul, or stand against him?

Don't TELL the player something is bad - let him see and learn for himself. No one will be convinced by an editorial comment from the designer. If you want your scenario to be deep and meaningful, you need to create a story and characters with depth and meaning - not just buzzwords.

In summary:
1) Making a point can be a good thing.
2) Done poorly, it can be a bad thing.
3) Making a point does not work when the scenario doesn't explore the issue properly.
4) You can't explore an issue properly with a one-sided argument.

[ Saturday, May 22, 2004 15:01: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #0
A lot of designers like to weave a bit of a moral into their scenarios. I'm not going to tell anyone not to do this, as I think the intent is good, even if the results are often quite poor. However, I will warn you to be very, very careful, as even the best designers are capable of screwing it up quite badly.

When done right, this can add an extra dimension to a scenario - you aren't just playing light entertainment, there's something much deeper to it. When done badly, you'll get reviews complaining about Big Important Ideas and that the scenario has a Point To Make. No one enjoys a lecture.

The most obvious example is The Valley of Dying Things. This scenario's theme can be summed up very simply - "Pollution is bad". Pollution is turned into some sort of cheesy villain. It has no motives or reason to exist in this game - I mean, it's just called 'waste'. It comes from a magical school, which apparently spent a large portion of time creating this deadly non-descript sludge. Why? No idea. What kind of bizarre magical procedure produced this stuff? No idea. What was so important that they decided it was worth the risk? No idea. We are told "pollution is bad" - but we're never told why it exists.

If you're going to address an issue, you need to address it properly and fully. Throwing in a moral without exploring the issue properly is asking for trouble.

Now, VoDT is hardly the worst offender in these cases. The scenario Bandits is a thinly-veiled lecture on the evils of Capitalism. The hero is called Karl Marx, and Capitalism (embodied in Mayor Pinochet) is portrayed as an incredibly greedy, evil entity. The characters are simply caricatures, espousing their various ideologies - the good of all (Communism) as opposed to intense self-interest and greed, greed, greed (Capitalism). It's about as subtle as a sledgehammer in a bowl of soup.

I firmly believe that as a designer and storyteller, you should never villify any point of view. Don't paint your baddies big and black - try to see them as they see themselves. No one believes they are evil. People who work at power plants don't see themselves as environmental vandals - they are providing a much-needed service to the community. Those who admire the principles of capitalism don't see themselves as greedy, grasping overlords - they believe in rewarding hard work and innovation. Even Hitler believed he was purifying the human race.

A scenario that does it right: Nephil's Gambit. Central to this game is the character Commander Groul. He's charismatic, intensely intelligent, resourceful, and brave. He's a hero. He also has no scruples whatsoever.

Commander Groul believes that the end justifies the means, whatever those means may be. He engineers a war for himself to win, so he can win favour and take power. Your adversary is not a cackling, black-robed, evil-loving wizard away in a dark tower - he's the hero of your country.

Nephil's Gambit doesn't hit you over the head with "The end does not justify the means". Instead, it takes Groul's point of view to it's natural conclusion, weaves a masterful story, and lets you decide for yourself. Do you follow Groul, or stand against him?

Don't TELL the player something is bad - let him see and learn for himself. No one will be convinced by an editorial comment from the designer. If you want your scenario to be deep and meaningful, you need to create a story and characters with depth and meaning - not just buzzwords.

In summary:
1) Making a point can be a good thing.
2) Done poorly, it can be a bad thing.
3) Making a point does not work when the scenario doesn't explore the issue properly.
4) You can't explore an issue properly with a one-sided argument.

[ Saturday, May 22, 2004 15:01: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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Article - 10 Dread Diseases in Blades of Avernum Editor
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #16
I think I'll just add "You are free to break any and all of these rules once you understand why they exist."

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Article - 10 Dread Diseases in Blades of Avernum
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Profile #16
I think I'll just add "You are free to break any and all of these rules once you understand why they exist."

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Article - 10 Dread Diseases in Blades of Avernum Editor
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That sounds very much like AC2.

Yeah, you're right. All generalizations are bad, including this one.

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Article - 10 Dread Diseases in Blades of Avernum
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That sounds very much like AC2.

Yeah, you're right. All generalizations are bad, including this one.

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Koala Cull in General
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I've heard of pet lions living fine without meat.

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Article - 10 Dread Diseases in Blades of Avernum Editor
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Profile #5
It... sorta does. But really, the insanity aspect wasn't the good bit.

Yeah, I really should have included an example. I'll fix that.

EDIT: Possibly I should amend that to "Insanity is bad except in comedies"?

[ Thursday, May 06, 2004 16:51: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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Article - 10 Dread Diseases in Blades of Avernum
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Member # 112
Profile #5
It... sorta does. But really, the insanity aspect wasn't the good bit.

Yeah, I really should have included an example. I'll fix that.

EDIT: Possibly I should amend that to "Insanity is bad except in comedies"?

[ Thursday, May 06, 2004 16:51: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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Article - 10 Dread Diseases in Blades of Avernum Editor
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Member # 112
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Below I list some of the many illnesses that plague Blades scenarios. Keep a vigilant eye out, so you may spot symptoms in your own work before it's too late.

1: Stupid Party Syndrome

Scenarios affected by this condition force the party to do something really dumb simply to advance the plot. For example, in Echoes: Assault you have to attack a friendly fortress to complete the scenario, despite the fact that this is about the most illogical thing you could do.

2: Scooby Doo's Disease

At the end of the scenario, everything slots together and someone explains everything that has gone on before, just like at the end of a Scooby Doo episode. This is usually followed by the big final fight. Look at Tatterdemalion for an example - this happens at the end of two of the three paths.

3: Verbal Diarrhea

This very common ailment will cause characters - usually villains - to spontaneously spew exposition, usually for unreasonably protracted periods. See Spears.

4: The Plague

Occasionally a scenario will suffer from body image issues and do it's very best to look exactly like Exile/Avernum 3. A very common symptom is monster plagues. See Wreck of the Slug.

5: Monty Haul Gut

Simply put, this comes from way too much rich food, weapons, gems, etc. See nearly anything by Brave Sir Robin.

6: Delusions of Grandeur

If you're making a scenario with the unregistered version and think it's so good that Spiderweb will give you a free registration for it and it might even win the contest, because it's really original and has custom monsters, and you have a big final showdown with Rentar-Inhro... you are already a victim.

7: Knocker's Migrane

Players get severe headaches from repeatedly banging their heads against walls looking for secret passages. Spare them the pain - keep all your doors visible. Alternatively, play Quintessence and get a dose of your own medicine.

8: Weapon Envy

Some designers just can't get it into their heads that size isn't everything. They automatically assume that bigger is always better, especially in relation to fights and weapons. Doom Moon II is a product of such thinking.

9: Insanity

Pure and simple. If there is an insane character anywhere in your scenario, amputate him. It would have helped The Draining.

10: Linda's Condition

If you are ever, ever tempted to insert a character controlled by demons, or who turns out to be a demon, or who has a fascination with demons, go lie down till the feeling passes. See (suprise, suprise) the Demon Island scenarios.

"Deceased" is the future tense of "Diseased". Just thought you should know that.

Please keep in mind that you are free to break any and all of these rules once you know why they exist.

************

Improvements?

[ Saturday, May 08, 2004 22:46: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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Article - 10 Dread Diseases in Blades of Avernum
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #0
Below I list some of the many illnesses that plague Blades scenarios. Keep a vigilant eye out, so you may spot symptoms in your own work before it's too late.

1: Stupid Party Syndrome

Scenarios affected by this condition force the party to do something really dumb simply to advance the plot. For example, in Echoes: Assault you have to attack a friendly fortress to complete the scenario, despite the fact that this is about the most illogical thing you could do.

2: Scooby Doo's Disease

At the end of the scenario, everything slots together and someone explains everything that has gone on before, just like at the end of a Scooby Doo episode. This is usually followed by the big final fight. Look at Tatterdemalion for an example - this happens at the end of two of the three paths.

3: Verbal Diarrhea

This very common ailment will cause characters - usually villains - to spontaneously spew exposition, usually for unreasonably protracted periods. See Spears.

4: The Plague

Occasionally a scenario will suffer from body image issues and do it's very best to look exactly like Exile/Avernum 3. A very common symptom is monster plagues. See Wreck of the Slug.

5: Monty Haul Gut

Simply put, this comes from way too much rich food, weapons, gems, etc. See nearly anything by Brave Sir Robin.

6: Delusions of Grandeur

If you're making a scenario with the unregistered version and think it's so good that Spiderweb will give you a free registration for it and it might even win the contest, because it's really original and has custom monsters, and you have a big final showdown with Rentar-Inhro... you are already a victim.

7: Knocker's Migrane

Players get severe headaches from repeatedly banging their heads against walls looking for secret passages. Spare them the pain - keep all your doors visible. Alternatively, play Quintessence and get a dose of your own medicine.

8: Weapon Envy

Some designers just can't get it into their heads that size isn't everything. They automatically assume that bigger is always better, especially in relation to fights and weapons. Doom Moon II is a product of such thinking.

9: Insanity

Pure and simple. If there is an insane character anywhere in your scenario, amputate him. It would have helped The Draining.

10: Linda's Condition

If you are ever, ever tempted to insert a character controlled by demons, or who turns out to be a demon, or who has a fascination with demons, go lie down till the feeling passes. See (suprise, suprise) the Demon Island scenarios.

"Deceased" is the future tense of "Diseased". Just thought you should know that.

Please keep in mind that you are free to break any and all of these rules once you know why they exist.

************

Improvements?

[ Saturday, May 08, 2004 22:46: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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I can't quite figure this out. in Blades of Avernum
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Member # 112
Profile #12
EDIT: Double post. Hate that.

[ Tuesday, May 04, 2004 15:20: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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I can't quite figure this out. in Blades of Avernum
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Why not send donations to your favourite Blades designers? They put in thousands of hours of work and don't get a cent.

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Babysitting released in Blades of Avernum
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Profile #31
The designer tells the player what level the scenario is intended to be played at. However, the designer may want the scenario to be difficult or he may want it to be easy. In Emulations, the fights are not meant to be too troubling. One or two reloads for the tough ones and you're fine. This is so the combat doesn't detract from the flow of the story, and also to give the player a feeling of great power. On the other hand, my scenario Deadly Goblins is intended for level 1 parties, but is probably one of the most difficult scenarios there is (to beat fairly, at least). You have to be an above-average player just to complete it without cheating.

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Koala Cull in General
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I can't understand people who say "I hate humans, they're monsters!". We are the only species who cares in the slightest about kindness and justice. That's why callous acts are labelled inhumane.

If you're going to hate something, hate Dingoes. They're astonishingly cruel.

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Koala Cull in General
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I really like Khoth's suggestion.

Or we could introduce Koala-eating bugs.

EDIT: I can just imagine two greenies hitting each other on the head with picket signs. One says "Save the Koalas!", the other says "Save the Trees!"

[ Friday, April 30, 2004 20:26: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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High level scenarios wanted in Blades of Avernum
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The problem with high level scenarios is twofold. First, you have no idea what scenarios the party has played. They might have gone through a TM or Andres Gonzales type scenario and picked up a stack of Super-Duper-Killing-Sticks. Or they might have played a few Bixler ones - much more spartan. At the same level, there can be a huge range in strength.

But this is really a more technical problem. You can find ways to get around it. To my mind, the real trouble with high level parties is that THE PLAYER KNOWS THEM.

People say they like building up a party and watching it develop. Fair enough. But to do that over the course of multiple scenarios, no one scenario can define the party as a character. This robs designers of a very powerful tool. The main character in the scenario has to be a non-entity.

For example, if you build up your party to level 80 or so, you're basically going to view them as your 'lads'. You tell them to go beat that guy up, they do, and do it well. But if any designer starts trying to impose a past history or any sort of personality on them, the player isn't going to go along with that. "Hey? No, I'm not a loyal soldier of whatsit, I'm out for the loot! Don't tell me what I want!"

This can still work for some design styles, but it severely restricts others. If you have no hand in the character of the party, you can either build an intricate world that responds to their every little choice - difficult - or you must not allow them to have any real choices - bland.

Personally, I doubt I'll ever make another scenario without a pre-made party, high or low level.

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Beta for Windows BoA about to start. in Blades of Avernum Editor
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Member # 112
Profile #5
I'm with TM here. Why are windows beta-testers disallowed while people who already have the editor and have made scenarios with it are not? I would probably test if it didn't mean I'd forfeit my chances in the contest. And I'm sure you'd find my input valuable, as I'm probably one of the top 5 BoE designers around at the moment.

[ Monday, April 26, 2004 19:04: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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Beta for Windows BoA about to start. in Blades of Avernum
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Member # 112
Profile #5
I'm with TM here. Why are windows beta-testers disallowed while people who already have the editor and have made scenarios with it are not? I would probably test if it didn't mean I'd forfeit my chances in the contest. And I'm sure you'd find my input valuable, as I'm probably one of the top 5 BoE designers around at the moment.

[ Monday, April 26, 2004 19:04: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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Areni
Revenge
To Live in Fear
Deadly Goblins
Ugantan Nightmare
Isle of Boredom
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Article - Building Blocks in Blades of Avernum Editor
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #6
Okay, here goes. In Deadly Goblins, the story beat is "The goblins set a trap for you, and you escape". It's at this point that you realise they are targeting you.

The sequence is: while wandering around in the forest, a couple of goblins shoot arrows at you. You chase them, but they run and disappear out of sight. Following them, you find a farmhouse. You go inside to see if they're there. The door closes behind you and is magically locked. A few moments later, the wall is set on fire.

You try to find a way out, and stumble into the master bedroom. The goblin wizard teleports in, summons a nasty monster, and teleports out. You kill it, and find a key in dresser. Taking it, you run back the way you came.

The fire has spread a long way by now, and you have to find a way through it. You come to the storerooms, which you unlock with your key. There's a weak wall in one of them. A way out! You smash it, and are about to escape when that goblin wizard throws up a magic barrier to block you!

You search around through the storerooms, the flames coming ever closer. You find a piercing crystal, destroy the barrier, and make your way out just in time! You collapse on the cool grass, panting and sweating as the house burns down behind you.

That's a sequence. Could have been much shorter, but where would the fun be in that?

In terms of sequences that have little story, you could probably quote the first half of Echoes: Assault. There's a large chunk where all you're doing is trying to escape, but there's a bunch of sequences with fireballs thrown about, garbage chutes dived into and so on. They don't have much story to them, but they're fun and interesting.

Note: Baldur's Gate is a terrible place to look for sequences. :P

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Rate my scenarios!

Areni
Revenge
To Live in Fear
Deadly Goblins
Ugantan Nightmare
Isle of Boredom
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00

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