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1 Character Party with 4 People In in Blades of Avernum
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #2
There is another solution, and it's one that gets quite a bit of use in BoE. Premade party. See Election, Emulations, Quintessence, Echoes: Assault, Zankozzie's Big Mistake, and Chains. They only use one-PC parties, but there's no reason you couldn't get them to have more than that.

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Article - Bob in Blades of Avernum Editor
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #4
Well, Quintessence is essentially Bob-less. It gives you one clear goal at the start and the rest of the scenario is spent achieving that goal. Same with Za-Khazi Run.

Echoes: Assault does fine without Bob (for the first half, at any rate). Your goal is pretty obvious - to survive. When the text box comes saying that the fort has fallen, it also says that your only option now is retreat.

So basically the answer is making it so that the next thing the player has to do is perfectly clear without Bob to tell them. But if it's a bit complex - find the Black Amythests before the baddie does so he can't complete the spell to kill you, for example - you really need Bob.

You can go for a while in a scenario without direction, of course. Just make sure that wandering about and exploring will naturally lead the player into the next stage of the scenario.

Morgan - Agreed, but how much better would it have been if Anthalon was a great character?

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Article - Bob in Blades of Avernum
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #4
Well, Quintessence is essentially Bob-less. It gives you one clear goal at the start and the rest of the scenario is spent achieving that goal. Same with Za-Khazi Run.

Echoes: Assault does fine without Bob (for the first half, at any rate). Your goal is pretty obvious - to survive. When the text box comes saying that the fort has fallen, it also says that your only option now is retreat.

So basically the answer is making it so that the next thing the player has to do is perfectly clear without Bob to tell them. But if it's a bit complex - find the Black Amythests before the baddie does so he can't complete the spell to kill you, for example - you really need Bob.

You can go for a while in a scenario without direction, of course. Just make sure that wandering about and exploring will naturally lead the player into the next stage of the scenario.

Morgan - Agreed, but how much better would it have been if Anthalon was a great character?

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Rate my scenarios!

Areni
Revenge
To Live in Fear
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Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Article - Bob in Blades of Avernum Editor
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #0
He's the man of a thousand faces. He has appeared in hundreds of scenarios, wearing many different guises, but underneath, always the same unmistakeable character.

He plays the role of Mayor Crouch from Valley of Dying Things. He masquerades as the Prime Director in At the Gallows. He wears the face of Gwennyth in Shadow of the Stranger. He appears dozens of times in Falling Stars.

Who is this man of mystery? He's the guy who sends you on missions.

Let's call him Bob.

Bob's a busy guy. While he isn't in every scenario ever made, if you pick one at random, chances are he's there. Often he puts in multiple appearances in a scenario. Why? Because, as smart as they are, scenario designers can't do everything on their own. Sometimes, they need Bob's help.

Bob's bread and butter is providing direction for poor, confused players. Often, it can be hard for players to know what to do next, so they get confused. Confused players are unhappy players, and (most) scenario designers don't want their players to be unhappy. So they want to help the players, but it looks kinda sloppy to have a big booming voice out of the sky announce "Try going to Centrevilleburgtown!", so they get Bob to do it. Stuff happens, players come and tell Bob about it, and he tells them what to do next.

Bob is so busy that he has his own little helpers. They're called Boblings. There's hundreds of them, and they take all the little jobs. They handle side quests, occasional courier missions, and other incidental stuff like that. It helps ease the load on Bob.

But if a job's important, Bob comes in and does it himself. When you come back to him time and again, and when the jobs he sends you on changes the state of the story, that's Bob.

A funny thing about Bob is that he only seems to be able to play three basic roles:

1) A mayor or some other kind of government official.
2) A military leader.
3) A powerful spellcaster.

No one really knows why, least of all Bob himself.

Also, despite the fact that Bob is almost always more important than the party - after all, he's telling them what to do! - he's far too busy to do it himself. So designers need to come up with an excuse why Bob doesn't go save the world instead of getting other people to do it. Often it's that he's too busy organising everyone, or something boring like that. It can be more interesting, though it doesn't really matter if it is.

But there's a problem. You see, Bob feels a little unappreciated. He's a very nice guy and isn't about to go on strike or anything, but he does feel that he doesn't get the credit he deserves. After all, he usually plays the most important NPC in the scenario! The player spends far more time talking to Bob than anyone else. So Bob has a few requests. He's very understanding and will help you out even if you don't do them, but it'll make him feel better about himself.

First off, Bob hates being given stupid exposition all the time. When a scenario has a complicated backstory to explain or someone needs to figure out the bad guy's plan and tell the player, it's always Bob. He's getting sick of it, because it makes him feel like he's nothing but a Fact Vendor - insert completed quest, collect new info. No actor likes being given exposition, and neither does Bob.

Because, you see, Bob is an actor. He can act any role you give him, good or bad. And he really likes to have good roles. He feels so frustrated when the party keeps coming to talk with him, and all he can do is play a bureaucratic paper-pusher. He really feels that he should have the best role in the scenario, considering how much time the player spends with him. He liked his role as Gwennyth in Shadow of the Stranger and would like to do more like that.

Also, since all of Bob's scenes are with the party and since there's so many of them, he loves his character to have a really interesting relationship with the party. The Boss-Subordinate relationship is pretty well explored by now and pretty boring. Bob loves to try something new. He'd be thrilled if he got to play someone like SHODAN from System Shock 2 (not a Blades scenario!). The bad guy who forces the player to work for him because they both know the party has no other option - he loves that idea. He'd also love to play a rich, beautiful, picky young woman giving her suitors tasks to determine who is worthy to be her husband.

Make Bob happy.

--------------

Discuss.

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Areni
Revenge
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Isle of Boredom
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Article - Bob in Blades of Avernum
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #0
He's the man of a thousand faces. He has appeared in hundreds of scenarios, wearing many different guises, but underneath, always the same unmistakeable character.

He plays the role of Mayor Crouch from Valley of Dying Things. He masquerades as the Prime Director in At the Gallows. He wears the face of Gwennyth in Shadow of the Stranger. He appears dozens of times in Falling Stars.

Who is this man of mystery? He's the guy who sends you on missions.

Let's call him Bob.

Bob's a busy guy. While he isn't in every scenario ever made, if you pick one at random, chances are he's there. Often he puts in multiple appearances in a scenario. Why? Because, as smart as they are, scenario designers can't do everything on their own. Sometimes, they need Bob's help.

Bob's bread and butter is providing direction for poor, confused players. Often, it can be hard for players to know what to do next, so they get confused. Confused players are unhappy players, and (most) scenario designers don't want their players to be unhappy. So they want to help the players, but it looks kinda sloppy to have a big booming voice out of the sky announce "Try going to Centrevilleburgtown!", so they get Bob to do it. Stuff happens, players come and tell Bob about it, and he tells them what to do next.

Bob is so busy that he has his own little helpers. They're called Boblings. There's hundreds of them, and they take all the little jobs. They handle side quests, occasional courier missions, and other incidental stuff like that. It helps ease the load on Bob.

But if a job's important, Bob comes in and does it himself. When you come back to him time and again, and when the jobs he sends you on changes the state of the story, that's Bob.

A funny thing about Bob is that he only seems to be able to play three basic roles:

1) A mayor or some other kind of government official.
2) A military leader.
3) A powerful spellcaster.

No one really knows why, least of all Bob himself.

Also, despite the fact that Bob is almost always more important than the party - after all, he's telling them what to do! - he's far too busy to do it himself. So designers need to come up with an excuse why Bob doesn't go save the world instead of getting other people to do it. Often it's that he's too busy organising everyone, or something boring like that. It can be more interesting, though it doesn't really matter if it is.

But there's a problem. You see, Bob feels a little unappreciated. He's a very nice guy and isn't about to go on strike or anything, but he does feel that he doesn't get the credit he deserves. After all, he usually plays the most important NPC in the scenario! The player spends far more time talking to Bob than anyone else. So Bob has a few requests. He's very understanding and will help you out even if you don't do them, but it'll make him feel better about himself.

First off, Bob hates being given stupid exposition all the time. When a scenario has a complicated backstory to explain or someone needs to figure out the bad guy's plan and tell the player, it's always Bob. He's getting sick of it, because it makes him feel like he's nothing but a Fact Vendor - insert completed quest, collect new info. No actor likes being given exposition, and neither does Bob.

Because, you see, Bob is an actor. He can act any role you give him, good or bad. And he really likes to have good roles. He feels so frustrated when the party keeps coming to talk with him, and all he can do is play a bureaucratic paper-pusher. He really feels that he should have the best role in the scenario, considering how much time the player spends with him. He liked his role as Gwennyth in Shadow of the Stranger and would like to do more like that.

Also, since all of Bob's scenes are with the party and since there's so many of them, he loves his character to have a really interesting relationship with the party. The Boss-Subordinate relationship is pretty well explored by now and pretty boring. Bob loves to try something new. He'd be thrilled if he got to play someone like SHODAN from System Shock 2 (not a Blades scenario!). The bad guy who forces the player to work for him because they both know the party has no other option - he loves that idea. He'd also love to play a rich, beautiful, picky young woman giving her suitors tasks to determine who is worthy to be her husband.

Make Bob happy.

--------------

Discuss.

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Areni
Revenge
To Live in Fear
Deadly Goblins
Ugantan Nightmare
Isle of Boredom
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
How crap can you get? in Blades of Avernum
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #5
For 50 dollars you can get BoE and have enough great scenarios to last you two years.

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Areni
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Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Happy Easter in General
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #21
I am aching to see the Passion. It doesn't come out down here until the 22nd! Gahh!

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Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
WILL SNY ONE TELL US WHERE TO GET EDITOR in Blades of Avernum Editor
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #2
One topic is plenty for you.

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Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
WILL SNY ONE TELL US WHERE TO GET EDITOR in Blades of Avernum
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #2
One topic is plenty for you.

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Areni
Revenge
To Live in Fear
Deadly Goblins
Ugantan Nightmare
Isle of Boredom
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Yet Another Article in Blades of Avernum Editor
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #6
I'd disagree re: Groul. I very much doubt he gets a thrill out of being naughty, he just takes the most logical path to get what he wants, unfettered by normal moral standards.

But I DO agree there's more to him than just the desire for control. How to repeatedly reproduce that sort of depth other characters? No idea, but this method at least puts me in striking distance.

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Areni
Revenge
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Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Yet Another Article in Blades of Avernum
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #6
I'd disagree re: Groul. I very much doubt he gets a thrill out of being naughty, he just takes the most logical path to get what he wants, unfettered by normal moral standards.

But I DO agree there's more to him than just the desire for control. How to repeatedly reproduce that sort of depth other characters? No idea, but this method at least puts me in striking distance.

--------------------
Rate my scenarios!

Areni
Revenge
To Live in Fear
Deadly Goblins
Ugantan Nightmare
Isle of Boredom
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Yet Another Article in Blades of Avernum Editor
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #4
Hmm.

I do think that every character in a scenario should have one central goal. I don't believe that makes them one-dimensional. The Wickerman has one goal, and I'd hardly call him a weak character.

Simplest character: "I sell weapons."

Next stage up: Much the same, but with some added "characteristics" - sneaky grin, glass eye, bad temper, whatever.

Next stage up: Character actively pursuing something. He's not just sitting there waiting for you to talk to him - he's living his own life. Might be a small thing, might be a big thing.

Next stage up: Fantastic, memorable character. Has X factor. I have no idea how to produce X factor. Let me know if you do.

--------------------
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Areni
Revenge
To Live in Fear
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Ugantan Nightmare
Isle of Boredom
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Yet Another Article in Blades of Avernum
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #4
Hmm.

I do think that every character in a scenario should have one central goal. I don't believe that makes them one-dimensional. The Wickerman has one goal, and I'd hardly call him a weak character.

Simplest character: "I sell weapons."

Next stage up: Much the same, but with some added "characteristics" - sneaky grin, glass eye, bad temper, whatever.

Next stage up: Character actively pursuing something. He's not just sitting there waiting for you to talk to him - he's living his own life. Might be a small thing, might be a big thing.

Next stage up: Fantastic, memorable character. Has X factor. I have no idea how to produce X factor. Let me know if you do.

--------------------
Rate my scenarios!

Areni
Revenge
To Live in Fear
Deadly Goblins
Ugantan Nightmare
Isle of Boredom
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Article - Choices and Linearity in Blades of Avernum Editor
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #19
*sigh*

I was never arguing that "plot is god", spyderbytes - I was arguing that the "plot is god" point of view is at least at prevalent as the "outdoors is bad" point of view, regardless of whether or not I actually agree with either. You can't disallow the "pushing" of one such opinion in an article without disallowing the other.

You make a lot of points for and against various opinions, most of which are very good, but all of which are completely irrelevant to what the discussion is (or rather, was) actually about.

But since this seems to have turned into a debate about plot, I'll point out to Thuryl that a pile of text boxes does not equal plot - it's the exact opposite. Story = stuff happening. How much actually happens while you're reading those text boxes? Nothing, most the time. They're usually filled with backstory & exposition - something it is VERY easy to have too much of.

--------------------
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Areni
Revenge
To Live in Fear
Deadly Goblins
Ugantan Nightmare
Isle of Boredom
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Article - Choices and Linearity in Blades of Avernum
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #19
*sigh*

I was never arguing that "plot is god", spyderbytes - I was arguing that the "plot is god" point of view is at least at prevalent as the "outdoors is bad" point of view, regardless of whether or not I actually agree with either. You can't disallow the "pushing" of one such opinion in an article without disallowing the other.

You make a lot of points for and against various opinions, most of which are very good, but all of which are completely irrelevant to what the discussion is (or rather, was) actually about.

But since this seems to have turned into a debate about plot, I'll point out to Thuryl that a pile of text boxes does not equal plot - it's the exact opposite. Story = stuff happening. How much actually happens while you're reading those text boxes? Nothing, most the time. They're usually filled with backstory & exposition - something it is VERY easy to have too much of.

--------------------
Rate my scenarios!

Areni
Revenge
To Live in Fear
Deadly Goblins
Ugantan Nightmare
Isle of Boredom
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Article - Basic but Vital Tips in Blades of Avernum Editor
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #5
Read the forum header again.

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Areni
Revenge
To Live in Fear
Deadly Goblins
Ugantan Nightmare
Isle of Boredom
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Article - Basic but Vital Tips in Blades of Avernum
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #5
Read the forum header again.

--------------------
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Areni
Revenge
To Live in Fear
Deadly Goblins
Ugantan Nightmare
Isle of Boredom
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Roses of Reckoning (BoA) is Released! in Blades of Avernum
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #19
We'll carry on saying what we've always said - it was the first major scenario.

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Areni
Revenge
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Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Roses of Reckoning (BoA) is Released! in Blades of Avernum
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #17
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Do these still exist somewhere?
Hopefully not.

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Areni
Revenge
To Live in Fear
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Isle of Boredom
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
You know your bored when... in Blades of Avernum Editor
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #2
I've been looking forward to my first topic-locking.

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Areni
Revenge
To Live in Fear
Deadly Goblins
Ugantan Nightmare
Isle of Boredom
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
You know your bored when... in Blades of Avernum
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #2
I've been looking forward to my first topic-locking.

--------------------
Rate my scenarios!

Areni
Revenge
To Live in Fear
Deadly Goblins
Ugantan Nightmare
Isle of Boredom
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Article - Choices and Linearity in Blades of Avernum Editor
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #12
quote:
Originally written by spyderbytes:

I'm part of the BoA designers community, but not the BoE one (I never even registered BoE--I didn't have the time or interest in designing scenarios when it came out).
By 'designing community' I meant people who have actually made scenarios. I'm not trying to discredit you or anything, just making my point. The vast majority of established designers put story as their No. 1 priority.

quote:
And I certainly don't hold the view that "plot is god". We just had an entire thread (I suppose I should look it up, but I'm too lazy ;) ) where several people disputed that it was.
How many of them were established designers?

The reason I bring this up is "players" or new designers often don't really understand what makes a scenario fun. They enjoy finding cool weapons and nice loot, so they assume that's all there is to it. They load their scenarios up with loads of mega-weapons and tons of cash, since more has obviously got to be better, and we get a Monty Haul scenario. Players making the transition to designers make this mistake over and over.

Basically, I'm saying that there are more people who know a lot about scenario design that disagree with the "Outdoors is Bad" point of view than there are one who disagree with the "Story as Priority No.1" point of view (or "Story as God" point of view, as you call it). If you're going to discredit the latter, you have to discredit the former.

As far as I'm concerned, you can say whatever you like in an article. It's up to the reader to decide whether or not to listen to you. If you feel newbies are being mislead, by all means, write your own article setting them straight.

--------------------
Rate my scenarios!

Areni
Revenge
To Live in Fear
Deadly Goblins
Ugantan Nightmare
Isle of Boredom
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Article - Choices and Linearity in Blades of Avernum
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #12
quote:
Originally written by spyderbytes:

I'm part of the BoA designers community, but not the BoE one (I never even registered BoE--I didn't have the time or interest in designing scenarios when it came out).
By 'designing community' I meant people who have actually made scenarios. I'm not trying to discredit you or anything, just making my point. The vast majority of established designers put story as their No. 1 priority.

quote:
And I certainly don't hold the view that "plot is god". We just had an entire thread (I suppose I should look it up, but I'm too lazy ;) ) where several people disputed that it was.
How many of them were established designers?

The reason I bring this up is "players" or new designers often don't really understand what makes a scenario fun. They enjoy finding cool weapons and nice loot, so they assume that's all there is to it. They load their scenarios up with loads of mega-weapons and tons of cash, since more has obviously got to be better, and we get a Monty Haul scenario. Players making the transition to designers make this mistake over and over.

Basically, I'm saying that there are more people who know a lot about scenario design that disagree with the "Outdoors is Bad" point of view than there are one who disagree with the "Story as Priority No.1" point of view (or "Story as God" point of view, as you call it). If you're going to discredit the latter, you have to discredit the former.

As far as I'm concerned, you can say whatever you like in an article. It's up to the reader to decide whether or not to listen to you. If you feel newbies are being mislead, by all means, write your own article setting them straight.

--------------------
Rate my scenarios!

Areni
Revenge
To Live in Fear
Deadly Goblins
Ugantan Nightmare
Isle of Boredom
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Yet Another Article in Blades of Avernum Editor
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #0
Creating Compelling Characters

In Blades, there tends to be a strong emphasis placed on story. And without strong characters, a story is nothing but a sequence of events. It's the characters that make us care about those events, and that give those events power.

So, how do you create a good character? I've previously written an article on giving depth to background figures like shopkeepers and guards, but what about those focal, important characters? How do you make your characters the kind that players will love (or love to hate)?

What I advance here is not the only way to develop characters. It may well not be the best way. It's just my way.

Whenever I create a character, I start by deciding what the one most important thing in the world is to this person. What is it that he values more than anything? Maybe it's honour? Maybe freedom? Peace? All these are noble motives, though not all your characters need to be noble. Money, power or their own safety could as easily be their greatest desire. Whatever it is, be sure that this is what drives their every action in your scenario.

Then, I take that driving a desire and find a situation for that character to be in. Something that brings out the best (or worst) in his particular personality.

For example, Stalker (in A Small Rebellion) wants nothing more than freedom from the Empire. It's a noble ideal, but he wants it so much, that he'll do anything to get it - even become a monster himself. Similarily, Commander Groul (in Nephil's Gambit) wants control - so he manufactures a war for himself to win, just so he can be a hero and get more power.

It's important to note here that in a good story, plot is inseperable from character. You couldn't replace Commander Groul with any other character - the story wouldn't work. No other character would do what Groul does.

In my scenario Revenge, the villain Bur-Denn is motivated by just that - revenge. If he wanted, he could probably escape the island and flee to safety, and the scenario would never happen. But his safety is not the most important thing to him, so he stays. Similarily, if the "hero" Kassand were not also motivated by revenge, he wouldn't be there in the first place. They're almost mirror images of each other, and neither character could be changed without ruining the story.

It doesn't really matter whether you come up with a great character and build a story for him to be in, or if you come up with a great story and find the right characters to play the parts, or if you develop both at once. The end result should be that you have a tightly woven, compelling story with characters that intrigue us.

--------------------
Rate my scenarios!

Areni
Revenge
To Live in Fear
Deadly Goblins
Ugantan Nightmare
Isle of Boredom
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Yet Another Article in Blades of Avernum
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #0
Creating Compelling Characters

In Blades, there tends to be a strong emphasis placed on story. And without strong characters, a story is nothing but a sequence of events. It's the characters that make us care about those events, and that give those events power.

So, how do you create a good character? I've previously written an article on giving depth to background figures like shopkeepers and guards, but what about those focal, important characters? How do you make your characters the kind that players will love (or love to hate)?

What I advance here is not the only way to develop characters. It may well not be the best way. It's just my way.

Whenever I create a character, I start by deciding what the one most important thing in the world is to this person. What is it that he values more than anything? Maybe it's honour? Maybe freedom? Peace? All these are noble motives, though not all your characters need to be noble. Money, power or their own safety could as easily be their greatest desire. Whatever it is, be sure that this is what drives their every action in your scenario.

Then, I take that driving a desire and find a situation for that character to be in. Something that brings out the best (or worst) in his particular personality.

For example, Stalker (in A Small Rebellion) wants nothing more than freedom from the Empire. It's a noble ideal, but he wants it so much, that he'll do anything to get it - even become a monster himself. Similarily, Commander Groul (in Nephil's Gambit) wants control - so he manufactures a war for himself to win, just so he can be a hero and get more power.

It's important to note here that in a good story, plot is inseperable from character. You couldn't replace Commander Groul with any other character - the story wouldn't work. No other character would do what Groul does.

In my scenario Revenge, the villain Bur-Denn is motivated by just that - revenge. If he wanted, he could probably escape the island and flee to safety, and the scenario would never happen. But his safety is not the most important thing to him, so he stays. Similarily, if the "hero" Kassand were not also motivated by revenge, he wouldn't be there in the first place. They're almost mirror images of each other, and neither character could be changed without ruining the story.

It doesn't really matter whether you come up with a great character and build a story for him to be in, or if you come up with a great story and find the right characters to play the parts, or if you develop both at once. The end result should be that you have a tightly woven, compelling story with characters that intrigue us.

--------------------
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Areni
Revenge
To Live in Fear
Deadly Goblins
Ugantan Nightmare
Isle of Boredom
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00

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