Absorbing creations: necessary?

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AuthorTopic: Absorbing creations: necessary?
Warrior
Member # 15001
Profile #0
Is it possible to play through the game without absorbing any creations? I'm barely into the game, not quite up to Dilame which I know is there because of my first, aborted attempt. Now I have a Shock Trooper with a Fyora, an Artila, and a Thahd. For further detail, I am trying to get through without using any canisters because I plan to talk my way through as many encounters as possible.

Ok, so, can I succeed just improving the creations I have now and adding to my Essence as I go to get more creatures? Or are these low-level creations going to get so out-of-date that I have to destroy them to make higher level companions?
Posts: 67 | Registered: Thursday, March 6 2008 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #1
It's possible -- in fact, it's possible to get through the whole game without making any creations at all. On higher difficulty levels it'll become painful towards the end, though, especially once you can no longer upgrade your creations' stats any further.

[ Monday, April 14, 2008 03:26: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #2
Full stat comparisons for keeping a creation all game can be found here:
http://minmax.ermarian.net/g4/g4cre.html

Fyoras and Thahds become useless characters almost immediately due to their puny attacks. Artilas will have a useful ranged attack for a while but they are so very fragile.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
"Slartucker is going to have a cow when he hears about this," Synergy said.
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Warrior
Member # 15001
Profile #3
Thanks. The thahd is not as tough as I thought it would be. I guess I shouldn't have named it. So far the fyora and the artila are still useful. I might try to keep the fyora through the game for role-playing reasons -- because you don't just dismiss your loyal sidekick. The other two, maybe not.
Posts: 67 | Registered: Thursday, March 6 2008 08:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #4
It's very possible. I played a game through as a shock trooper on torment without absorbing any creations, or letting any die until the very end. I even managed to keep my fyora useful up until its tragic death in the Titan's Hall. (After which I got bored and went on a rampage in some major cities and stopped redoing battles if I lost another creation. I think the death of that faithful fyora drove my shock trooper insane.)

It does take some planning, though. You almost certainly don't want three creations before Dillame, because you'll want those spots available for more powerful creations later on in the game. Early on, the shock trooper is more than capable of fighting for herself. And you will want a cryoa. They're very good creations. There's a fair bit of leeway with the canisters, so don't be afraid to use a walkthrough to find a drayk canister or three and use them. (No in-game effect until 5 canisters, and no ending change until 12 or something like that.) Put just enough points into blessing magic that you can cast speed and mass energize as soon as possible and use them constantly. You'll want to be good at casting healing spells too. And I recommend against any early melee creations--early creations have less health and resistance, so you need them to have ranged attacks so they can stay out of harm's way. By the end of the game, my other creations stayed up front to knock enemies down to a sliver of health while my roamer and fyora (the weakest two) hung out in back to finish that sliver of health off.

That's probably more than you wanted to know, but Dikiyoba hopes it's useful to you.

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Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #5
Unfortunately, Battle Creations suck universally. There is never any point at which there is any reason whatsoever to use or invest in battle creations.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
"Slartucker is going to have a cow when he hears about this," Synergy said.
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 15228
Profile #6
Its possible to play through the whole game on easy or normal with a Cryoa wit max stats, at least in the older games. I didn't ditch mine until I could make a Gazer (attacking with kill is fun!) :D as far as battle creations, the only one really worth getting are thads in the early game, and Rotgroths towds the end. if you can get enough essence for Drakons they're awesome too. my favorite party is a Gazer/eyebeast, wit a drakon and a Rotgroth (though I had to cheat for the essence) artillas and vlish retain their usefulness for most of the game too, but eventually its best to replace them for heavier artillery (acid/poison is useles against rotgroths) You shouldn't have to worry about absorbing creations, even with the noblest intent the weak ones will get slaughtered and make way for better ones.

[ Monday, April 14, 2008 06:49: Message edited by: Ale193 ]

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Posts: 23 | Registered: Sunday, March 9 2008 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #7
The major problem with low level creations is that they become susceptible to mental attacks in the last third of the game. Tier 4 and 5 creations seem to be immune.

This game assumes that you will replace creations, but as long as you have 4 slots you can just make a few powerful ones and keep your older ones. I had a lifecrafter that use 2 powerful creations for most of the end game.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 7488
Profile #8
quote:
Originally written by Disappearer:

Unfortunately, Battle Creations suck universally. There is never any point at which there is any reason whatsoever to use or invest in battle creations.
Except maybe a couple of Battle Betas as meatshields, though I admittedly prefer Glaahks and Ur-Glaahks (and maybe Drakons) in that role.
quote:
Originally written by Randomizer:

This game assumes that you will replace creations
I have yet to play a Geneforge game where I didn't. In fact, about 99% of the creations I make are expendable. I pretty much like to play as a loner.

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Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.
If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
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Posts: 558 | Registered: Friday, September 15 2006 07:00
Councilor
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Originally by Randomizer:

quote:
The major problem with low level creations is that they become susceptible to mental attacks in the last third of the game. Tier 4 and 5 creations seem to be immune.
You know, I didn't think there were enough mental attacks to make mental resistance a huge issue. Maybe a few of the mass mental attacks, but mass attacks always hurt if you don't have most of your creations out of the way.

Dikiyoba.

Edit: Added quote.

[ Monday, April 14, 2008 10:15: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ]

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Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 9906
Profile Homepage #10
I don't like having creations, they just get in the way and suck up xp. Maybe it was because I played as a servile but hey.

But the Protoss do like Rotrgroths, even if they are battle creations.

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Posts: 301 | Registered: Tuesday, August 21 2007 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 7488
Profile #11
Having creations in any Genegorge games will reduce your xp, which is why I said above that I prefer to play as a loner.

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Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.
If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Oh well. Another day, another dementia.
Posts: 558 | Registered: Friday, September 15 2006 07:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #12
Really, having creations doesn't reduce your experience by all that much, since things are worth less experience each time you gain a level, so you gain additional experience just by having the creations slow your leveling down.

Dikiyoba.

[ Monday, April 14, 2008 11:10: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ]

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Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 13473
Profile #13
I think absorbing the low level creations and LEARNING from the shaper on how to create high level creations would be the best route. Yes, absorbing is neccesary in certain situations

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UR-DRAKONS RULE. Ur-Drakons are the god of geneforge 4. They cant be beat. Ur-Drakons shall rule forever. Those who disagree should be destroyed. (I am Seriously Serious about the Seriousness of me being Serious.
Posts: 47 | Registered: Tuesday, January 22 2008 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #14
Yes, having creations in Geneforge is like having advantages in Avernum 4 and 5: you'll never be more than a small handful of levels behind even at the end of the game. So if you want to keep seven vlish (or whatever) around the whole game, it's an easy call to make.

The real perfectionist problem is if you plan on upgrading to new creations, or if you just use disposable creations; as unlike Avernum, you don't just lose skill points, you also lose a small amount of precious maximum essence. But if that really bugs you, you can always iwanttobestronger a few levels to make up for the XP leeching.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
"Slartucker is going to have a cow when he hears about this," Synergy said.
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 10374
Profile #15
At level 40 you need to type iwanttobestronger thousand times to advance a level.Hands hurt.

I always use as much as creations as I have essence and I achieved level 41 so is a level achived without creations significantly higher or you give it to much importance.I think its former one.

[ Monday, April 14, 2008 12:02: Message edited by: LakiRa@ ]
Posts: 263 | Registered: Sunday, September 9 2007 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 10374
Profile #16
*cough*I hope you will ignore this

[ Monday, April 14, 2008 12:04: Message edited by: LakiRa@ ]
Posts: 263 | Registered: Sunday, September 9 2007 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 7488
Profile #17
quote:
Originally written by Disappearer:

you can always iwanttobestronger a few levels to make up for the XP leeching.
I don't think that cheat is available in G4. I typed it in about 10 times in a row with no result, and I didn't see it mentioned anywhere in the hint book.

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Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.
If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Oh well. Another day, another dementia.
Posts: 558 | Registered: Friday, September 15 2006 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 16812
Profile #18
It's "iamweak" in G4. Why they didn't stick with "iwanttobestronger" I'll never know

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Posts: 33 | Registered: Saturday, April 12 2008 07:00
Canned
Member # 8014
Profile #19
I suggest creating a vlish or two as soon as it is resonable. Vlish are very powerfull in some situations.

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Posts: 1799 | Registered: Sunday, February 4 2007 08:00
Warrior
Member # 15187
Profile Homepage #20
Battle creations: At least in G3, I thought the Rotghroth (sp?), especially the one that dripped acid, was especially nice... also I've always liked the glaahk (sp?)... though not when I have to fight them. They're deadly creatures.

The Wingbolt in G4 was nice (again, except when I had to fight one), maybe my favorite in the game. Eyebeasts are kind of nice, too. But these're high-level creations. Lower-level: take the vlish, I suppose, and the Cryoa... except that the Cryoa isn't so effective against creatures who are cold-immune.

I think I remember doing a check long, long ago on whether or not creations stole XP and finding that they didn't... but companions like Greta (notwithstanding she's a very helpful companion) do steal XP. In the beginning of G3 it's good to tell the girl who wants to tag along with you to get lost... because she also steals half your XP and then runs off anyway after you're done saving her life.

Um... I've never liked absorbing creations, especially when playing a rebel (in G4) or rebel-sympathizer (in G3) . . . it doesn't mesh with the rebels' ethics. I happen to feel that we should be allowed to simply 'disown' creations... especially if there's a certain 'reservation' for disowned creations, much like the one we're compelled to destroy in, I think, G3.

But in general, though I tend to try shaping creatures on first play just to see what they can do for me, I, too, have not been a huge fan of towing creations along, and I've preferred to do the games as a loner... my biggest problem: creations're too costly (essence-wise).
Posts: 178 | Registered: Saturday, March 8 2008 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #21
Your comparison was wrong; creations and Alwan and Greta all leech XP the same way. It's very minor, but they all do.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
"Slartucker is going to have a cow when he hears about this," Synergy said.
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #22
Originally by Clavicle:

quote:
...except that the Cryoa isn't so effective against creatures who are cold-immune.
There aren't all that many cold-immune creatures. Shades. A few special enemies. Cryodrayks have a fairly large resistance to cold too, I think. I can't think of any others off the top of my head. But cryoas do have a pretty good melee attack as well as their ice breath.

Dikiyoba.

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Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Warrior
Member # 15187
Profile Homepage #23
Okay, maybe I don't remember the XP drains too well... I haven't played those games in a while.

As to cryoas... well, it's true that there aren't a 'lot' of enemies who are resistant to cold... it's just that whenever one pops up, it's a little annoying when my cryoa's breath-attacks render 0 damage.. and then I have to move the animal up to the foe, thus prompting the foe to either back up out of the way (and out of range of my own missile attacks) or else give my cryoa an unpleasant thumping.

Otherwise, as I've said, they're fairly good creations.

I'm not complaining. Sure, once in a long while they're useless... and they're not the only ones who experience those occasional moments of what-do-I-do?... but generally they're quite useful.
Posts: 178 | Registered: Saturday, March 8 2008 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #24
Cold resistance is actually annoyingly common. Most regular enemies are vulnerable to cold, but a large proportion of the less common but more annoying enemies resist it heavily: specters of all sorts are immune, and golems and pylons both take only 10% damage. And of course there are cryodrayks. The cryoa melee attack isn't horrendous, but creation melee attacks are really never good after G2.

Cryoas are still good -- they are one of the better values for their essence cost, and they are available early -- but the majority of your team should probably use magical or physical damage, to avoid being shut out against ice resistant enemies.

Although note that cryoas are great against wingbolts and their ilk.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
"Slartucker is going to have a cow when he hears about this," Synergy said.
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00

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