Geneforge 5: Improvements, Innovations etc

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Author	Topic: Geneforge 5: Improvements, Innovations etc
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Thursday, March 15 2007 04:14 Profile Homepage #25 quote: Originally written by Student of Trinity: 1) Let the player recognize in advance what the canister will do. By now canisters are well known, and a rebel PC might be trained in recognizing them. 2) Do some clever stuff with timers and SDFs to give canister effects that don't appear for some time, or until some specific things are done (such as using another canister, or entering some special environment). By the time you fully realize what that canister did to you, you've played too much more of the game to want to go back. Some delayed effects could even be made random, so that consulting a walkthrough wouldn't remove the risk. I like option 2) best, but it could be combined with 1), in that player knowledge of canisters could be unreliable or incomplete. I can think of a third option, although it changes the canister system almost as radically as #2: make all canisters interchangeable. Rather than picking a canister effect at random and being saddled with something useless like a level of Create Thahd, you'd always get Create Thahd from the first canister you picked up, Searer from the second canister, and so on and so forth. You have to keep using the early, less useful canisters because it's the only way to get to the good stuff. I suppose if we wanted, we could divide canisters into "creations", "magic" and "other", and give each a separate progression (and distinguish the three types with handy colour-coding). Of course, this would also mean that you couldn't play a low-canister game and still make Drakons at the end, since your first level of Create Drakon would presumably come at around your 20th creation canister. Being able to get all the really useful creations in a low-canister game has always felt like a bit of an exploit to me anyway, though; using canisters in moderation doesn't really seem consistent with everything the game tells us about them. [ Thursday, March 15, 2007 04:23: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Thursday, March 15 2007 04:54 Profile #26 quote: Originally written by Thuryl: Being able to get all the really useful creations in a low-canister game has always felt like a bit of an exploit to me anyway, though; using canisters in moderation doesn't really seem consistent with everything the game tells us about them. This is a good point. But I think I'd rather have it resolved a bit less crudely, through a somewhat extended version of my #2 proposal. You only get Create Drakon if you have already absorbed enough 'lower level' canisters to prepare you. It could be that if you haven't completed the required series of prior treatments, then you get some warped or crippled version of the ability, or even get warped or crippled yourself. You don't want to go too far with this, because the whole point of canisters is to offer easy power. But perhaps it can still be easy without being totally trivial, in that you may have to take the right course of canisters, perhaps combined with other easy, but pyscho-genetically dangerous, actions. And this would all tend to make canister management into a big aspect of the game. But that would be cool, I think. Canisters have always been a big part of the games, even though their mechanics have so far been trivial. Why not give them a bit more strategy? -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Agnessa Warrior Member # 43	written Thursday, March 15 2007 06:26 Profile #27 Well, I don't think it'd be too burdensome to have a little pop-up thing every time you touch a canister--not much different than every time you look into a container of whatever sort to see if there's anything good in there. So instead of the auto-touch=use, it'd be a little window with three choices: use, smash, change mind. Change mind would allow you to back out of touching it without either effect. Use would be just like it is now, while smash would result in the changed image (broken canister) and a little 'you gained experience' message. But yeah, I think if you wanted your character to be a Trakovite or even a very pro-Shaper (orthodox) character, smashing canisters instead of using them should be a choice. And it would underscore the whole canister=easy way vs. 'gain skills the hard way' ethos, even if the reward for canister smashing was not xp (which is probably easiest to code--and I'd make it a flat number so that it's still worthwhile at high levels) but say 2 skill points (not enough necessarily to improve a skill, but add enough of them, and you're getting somewhere). Posts: 145 \| Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Faint Piping of Two Demoniac Flutes Guardian Member # 5360	written Thursday, March 15 2007 06:33 Profile #28 Maybe you could gain a couple of valuable crystals, about 500xp, and a ring of puresteel. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 \| Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
The_Nazgul Infiltrator Member # 2940	written Thursday, March 15 2007 10:04 Profile Homepage #29 A bit more gold and treasures would be nice. :D -------------------- "I don't want to achieve immortality through my work, I want to achieve it through not dying." Posts: 469 \| Registered: Thursday, May 1 2003 07:00
shadowss Apprentice Member # 7501	written Thursday, March 15 2007 12:13 Profile #30 well I've been thinking of connecting the spawner script with a golem creation(change template + script of ornk) i haven't gotten to this since I'm working on an editor.. and if u want to play as a drakon you can do: go to gf4itemchars.txt , find you character,eg (CTRL+RF[lifecrafter}) and change the code: cr_graphic_template = 140; to cr_graphic_template = 85; they will still treat you as a human, but u look like a drakon lol -------------------- previous display name was TAKE ALL SHAPER I am ALWAYS with you i know all that u do i know all of your secrets including how to shape Posts: 41 \| Registered: Sunday, September 17 2006 07:00
Emperor Tullegolar Shaper Member # 7420	written Thursday, March 15 2007 12:46 Profile Homepage #31 quote: Originally written by Thuryl: I can think of a third option, although it changes the canister system almost as radically as #2: make all canisters interchangeable. Rather than picking a canister effect at random and being saddled with something useless like a level of Create Thahd, you'd always get Create Thahd from the first canister you picked up, Searer from the second canister, and so on and so forth. You have to keep using the early, less useful canisters because it's the only way to get to the good stuff. At first I thought this conflicted with game canon, which says the canister maker places one specific ability into each canister, but you could just say something like "oh, that canister had create thahd in it the whole time" even though it didn't. Whatever, good idea. It gets my Emperor's Seal of Approval®, mostly because it makes it more difficult to resist delicious canisters. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 \| Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Faint Piping of Two Demoniac Flutes Guardian Member # 5360	written Thursday, March 15 2007 13:13 Profile #32 That would eliminate the possibility of getting those few spell/creations that can only be gained by canisters. And the Emperor's Seal of Approval is a death warrant. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 \| Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
-silver- Cartographer Member # 995	written Thursday, March 15 2007 14:22 Profile #33 quote: Originally written by Nalyd Twisted: That would eliminate the possibility of getting those few spell/creations that can only be gained by canisters. And the Emperor's Seal of Approval is a death warrant. it would do no such thing. it would just mean you had to consume "enough" canisters to get to them... Posts: 206 \| Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Faint Piping of Two Demoniac Flutes Guardian Member # 5360	written Thursday, March 15 2007 14:41 Profile #34 Well, if you want to fall into that particular corruption, then yes, go ahead. But Nalyd won't do that -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 \| Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Emperor Tullegolar Shaper Member # 7420	written Thursday, March 15 2007 17:55 Profile Homepage #35 It forces people to make the sacrifice for true power. Your unwillingness to make that sacrifice reveals your weakness. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 \| Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Thursday, March 15 2007 18:32 Profile Homepage #36 As Thuryl said, getting the goodies by using canisters sparingly just seems wrong. You should either have to avoid canisters entirely or just go for them all. Having delayed canister effects would just encourage going online for spoilers, but having canisters give abilities in order is a fairly good idea. I haven't really noticed any specifically placed canisters abilities anyway. —Alorael, who could even see a mix. You'll always find a Strength canister in one place, but it's next to two other canisters that give whatever abilities come next in your progression. Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Friday, March 16 2007 04:34 Profile Homepage #37 Geneforge 4 was definitely a huge improvement over its predecessor GF3, but the one thing which really disappointed me was that Jeff continues to retain some redundant creations. He continues to build 'sideways' (adding Wingbolts, War Tralls, etc), but leaves the **ty core creations unchanged. No-one has touched pyroroamers or battle betas since GF1, and Jeff knows it. Battle Creations in general are redundant. So why has he left them as an option to be Shaped? Why can't we have Vlish that Daze or Stun? Why not a support Vlish which can heal? Why not a Battle Beta that can intimidate enemies? Why not a pyroroamer who can hit multiple targets with a cone firebreath? Hell, I'm not a game designer, and I can think of several ways to make PC creations more fun to shape. Instead of continually adding new tiers of creations, Jeff should reform those which already can be shaped, and perhaps add a third option (eg. Vlish/Terror Vlish/Radiant Vlish). He made a partial attempt at this in GF 4 (witness the wonderful improvement to the Drakon), but some redundant creations still remain (Unstable Thahd, I'm looking at you!) -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00**
Faint Piping of Two Demoniac Flutes Guardian Member # 5360	written Friday, March 16 2007 05:45 Profile #38 Unstable Thahd? Any of the "charged" creations were redundant. No offense to Jeff's work, but please don't include them in GF5. The ideal addition would be a "Make you own Creation" option, i.e. A floating Battle Beta with Vlish tentacles and wingbolt wings. Won't happen, but it only hurts a litte to dream. [ Saturday, March 17, 2007 05:56: Message edited by: Nalyd The Dead ] -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 \| Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Friday, March 16 2007 09:06 Profile Homepage #39 Battle creations have the inertia of four games behind them now, so I don't think the core creations will be getting any overhauls. They do need some way to become the equals of the other two types, though. I'm sure Jeff will work on it in G5. Unstable creations were an experiment. Unless Jeff is really fond of them I doubt they'll return. —Alorael, who very much likes the idea of support creations. Healing is probably unbalanced because creations lack essence, but trading in part of your essence pool to have an improved way to bless, haste or otherwise improve your party would be an interesting mechanic. The balancing would be tricky, but if it worked it would be fun. Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Friday, March 16 2007 09:42 Profile Homepage #40 How would the balancing be tricky? Geneforge ONE had creations with unlimited slowing ability. G4 had creations that could curse. Haste and Bless are also far cheaper spells than others that are already emulated by creations (Aura of Flames and Kill, I'm looking at you). And Jeff would have to work hard to make a creation more broken than the G3 Vlish. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Friday, March 16 2007 15:18 Profile Homepage #41 quote: Originally written by Trefoil Live: Battle creations have the inertia of four games behind them now, so I don't think the core creations will be getting any overhauls. They do need some way to become the equals of the other two types, though. I'm sure Jeff will work on it in G5. I think that if battle creations are going to be viable, they need much, much more durability than they currently have. A HP bonus on a par with kyshakks would be a good start. I like the idea that someone mentioned earlier of giving them debuffing attacks, too, but while it'd certainly make them more useful I'm not sure it'd really fit what their role is supposed to be. Traditionally, fire creations have been the versatile damage-dealers, magic creations have been debuffers (although some of them also have better damage output than fire creations), and battle creations... well, admittedly, battle creations haven't been much of anything so far. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Friday, March 16 2007 15:46 Profile Homepage #42 Battle creations were at least theoretically useful in G1 and G2, when most of them did have higher combat bonuses than other creations, and when melee damage was higher than missile damage (d8 vs d6-8) rather than lower (d4 vs d3-12). -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Enraged Slith Agent Member # 27	written Friday, March 16 2007 15:48 Profile #43 I feel that some of these suggestions could make this game much more appealing to a wider audience, but some of these feel like they'd only affect a powergamer's or a torment player's opinion. As for the increased HP of battle creations: maybe a little, just for torment's sakes. It's really dumb that some fire creations have more HP than battle creations. However, an increase in health points could severely unbalance the game in battle creations favor, especially with the new 1 AP attack system. Maybe changing the AP cost for ranged attacks back to 3 would help. It would make the fragile ranged creations much more susceptible to stun than battle creations. I'd also like to see more diversity in creations. There should be benefits for using any type of creation, not just the creation with the strongest attack power. A more complex stat growth system would probably help there. As always, I'd like to see an option for customizing the color of your creations. (Heck, the ability could be added as an easter egg canister) PINK THAHDS PLZ!!! Edit: In G1 my higher level Battle Beta was trumped in melee by a Drayk. This should never happen. Ever. [ Friday, March 16, 2007 15:49: Message edited by: Enraged Slith ] Posts: 1233 \| Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Saturday, March 17 2007 02:03 Profile #44 Just beefing up battle creations would probably fix them nicely, making them less negligible both as allies and as enemies. But it's a good thing this is all it would take, because I think Jeff's other options are limited by the fact that PC creations are the same stock types as all the monsters you fight. Turning PC magic creations into glass cannons would be better for balance versus PC battle creations, but it would also turn all the Vlish and Gazers that you encounter into pushovers. The player can compensate for fragility with good tactics, but making a comparably effective AI is probably beyond the scope of shareware. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Saturday, March 17 2007 05:00 Profile Homepage #45 quote: Originally written by Student of Trinity: The player can compensate for fragility with good tactics, but making a comparably effective AI is probably beyond the scope of shareware. Making an effective AI is not enormously difficult. Making an effective AI that doesn't make the player abandon the game in disgust is somewhat trickier. After all, "good tactics" on the PC's part often reduce to "buff and ambush in order to kill everything before it can attack"; the same tactics applied by an AI make for a poor game. The core problem of AI design is that while easy combat and difficult combat are both trivial to design, the true goal is to make combat that feels harder than it actually is, and that involves at least as much manipulation of human intelligence as of machine intelligence. Continually tricking the average player into believing he has made extraordinary accomplishments is no mean feat. [ Saturday, March 17, 2007 05:07: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
orange111 Apprentice Member # 7880	written Saturday, March 17 2007 16:38 Profile #46 I've been noticing that not too many people like the charged creature idea so it might be better if there were 3 levels for each creature-the beginning phase (like a fyora), then a charges state and finally the last third tier state which would be a cryo in this example. It would make since that after every level of a certain creature skill, you manage to shape an improved version of it. Posts: 1 \| Registered: Tuesday, January 9 2007 08:00
Milla Infiltrator Member # 65	written Saturday, March 17 2007 20:19 Profile Homepage #47 I've rethought it and what I really want to see is more of those creation diagrams loading screens that were in G3 and G4. -------------------- Milla-Displacer Beastie This is also a good site Posts: 650 \| Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Chintznibbles Apprentice Member # 2581	written Sunday, March 25 2007 03:13 Profile #48 I second the "creature schematic" loading screens. Those are great, and there should be more of them. (although the Rotgroth one actually grosses me out a little from time to time... bleh) Since I keep managing to find a way to get like 9 points in Create Fyora and such, I think it'd be cool to have a third tier. Make them yellow and have them breathe a weak version of Kyshakk lightning. Electora? Hmm... sounds like some kind of election-based thing, but it could work... I actually like the "rebel" character classes a lot. More variety is always welcome in my book. If GF5 is Shaper-centric, an option to just pick a male or female type sprite for your character would be interesting. Useless, but interesting. ;) Finally, you should be able to talk to your creations. Intelligent creations should have huge, elaborate dialogue trees and fanciful sidequests, along the lines of the ones in Planescape:Torment. :P nod Ooh, ooh, and voicework, too. Fyora: Rar. Vlish: <eerie unintelligible whisper> Thahd: Dur, me smash! Drayk: a variety of sarcastic comments. Rotgroth: things about brains, specifically how he'd like to eat some. Drakon: Thinly veiled threats. Yeah, I know... whoever said dreaming only hurts a little was right, though. [ Sunday, March 25, 2007 03:19: Message edited by: Chintznibbles ] -------------------- Stuff? Don't mind if I do, thanks. This may, in fact, be a long, rambling post without much bearing on the topic of the thread. Consider yourself warned. Posts: 32 \| Registered: Monday, February 3 2003 08:00
Jeran Korak Lifecrafter Member # 7557	written Sunday, March 25 2007 04:08 Profile #49 1) Get rid of the "one-man one-bag" way of carring items. 2) At least 10 more types of creation 3) Get rid of the creations limit, just have as many creations as you can support with more chance of a creation going "rouge" and attacking everything in sight. 4) Get "packhorse" creation types, I.E A Battlealpha that is useless at fighting but can carry something like 500 pounds of items. My 5-cents -------------------- The force is with ME! I'm not so sure about YOU! Trust me, you do not want to click this link Posts: 942 \| Registered: Sunday, October 8 2006 07:00