A5 Questions

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AuthorTopic: A5 Questions
Warrior
Member # 2000
Profile Homepage #0
I have some questions on the possible return of some features that were strangely lost in the transition from Exile to Avernum.

Dual-weilding with the ambidextrous trait. This just seems silly not to have, so long as the two-handed weapons are kept equal or superior in strength to two one-handers. Gives more options for playstyle.

Bashing weapons. I realize 'edged weapons' no longer exists either and all non-pole weapons were lumped into "Meele" but the total lack of maces and flails in Avernum confuses me. Especially with that stun mechanic in A4.

Field style magic. BoA had this with wall of knives, but anti-magic field seems so essential for being able to take out enemy casters and conflag. was a great low level AOE DOT. Again, these are just more flavours to playstyle.

Weapon poisons. I'm a broken record. More options! Makes a member of my party feel more like a thief besides pumping in tool skill.

If not for A5, then hopefully A6.

-Ed

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Posts: 141 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #1
Dual wielding always seems hokey to me. Ambidexterity means you can use one sword equally well with either hand. Using two swords at once, each as well as a single sword, would seem to require a lot more than just ambidexterity. I mean, a real blow with a sword requires a major lunge or swing with the whole body, not just a flick of the wrist. No matter how ambidextrous you are, doing that with two swords isn't really much easier than doing it twice with one sword, in the same amount of time.

Which is as much a matter of balance as of credibility. Ambidexterity sounds like a reasonable positive trait, if you're thinking how useful and common it is in real life. If it were called 'double all my attacks' it would sound broken.

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Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #2
1. Dual-wielding was broken. Instead of trying to balance it, which would require two-handed weapons to be twice as powerful as one-handed or strange damage modifications for ambidexterity, I think just saying no works fine.

2. There's no reason the engine can't do bashing weapons, but they're just not part of Avernum anymore. They were always poor man's swords in Exile anyway.

3. Fields are nice. I think their removal might be balance-related, though. The AI probably wouldn't do too well with them, and walking through 8 AP of fields would be a mess.

4. I have no problem with weapon poison only coming with magic weapons. It's a powerful ability.

—Alorael, who was happy to see area spells reappear in A4. It's a bit of a shame there's still no way to fry your own party with a fireball, though.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #3
4. The only weapon poison is the Alien Waveblade and Assassin's Dagger.

3. Fields are out because the AI doesn't have a way to handle them. It's the biggest exploit that you can hide behind them and monsters won't go through them to attack you. Only chitrachs going through a null bug's antimagic field.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Warrior
Member # 2000
Profile Homepage #4
I think "it was unbalanced" is never an excuse, especially on a completely new engine...

Adding more options to playstyle shouldn't be scrapped for the mentality that it's 'just easier to leave out.'

These were good features, so long as they are kept in line.

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Posts: 141 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #5
It's a matter of the time required to balance a feature with the rest of the game. A5 adds battle disciplines so fighters have more options than melee or missle.

We've barely started testing and Jeff was surprised that I had adrenaline rush before leaving the demo (Yeah, it's my fault that you can no longer legsweep with starting characters, too). It affected the balance that it was too easy to acquire new battle disciplines so it's now takes longer.

When you have jaded min/maxers that take the game to an extreme any new feature can get out of hand. Also some features were dropped because players didn't like them.

[ Friday, August 24, 2007 19:23: Message edited by: Randomizer ]
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Warrior
Member # 246
Profile #6
So what features were dropped? Or are you on an NDA and can't say without being stabbed repeatedly?
Posts: 117 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #7
Random is being stabbed repeatedly at this moment.

-S-

[ Friday, August 24, 2007 21:54: Message edited by: Synergy ]

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #8
It's still in a state of flux. Jeff can change his mind at any moment.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Warrior
Member # 1586
Profile #9
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

Dual wielding always seems hokey to me. Ambidexterity means you can use one sword equally well with either hand. Using two swords at once, each as well as a single sword, would seem to require a lot more than just ambidexterity. I mean, a real blow with a sword requires a major lunge or swing with the whole body, not just a flick of the wrist. No matter how ambidextrous you are, doing that with two swords isn't really much easier than doing it twice with one sword, in the same amount of time.

Hate to tell you this but it is a valid real life style of fighting. a lot of moderns call this style 'Florentine', although it is not exclusively European.
It is a difficult style not because you cannot do sufficient damage but because of the difficulty of not falling in to an easily read pattern. Simply, if your pattern is short it is easy to decipher in the quickest battle and you die - if it is longer it requires a longer battle to work out making your chances better.

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Posts: 56 | Registered: Tuesday, July 23 2002 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #10
Fighting with a sword and a dagger, or perhaps two daggers, is a lot more doable than fighting with two longswords, which was what I believe the Exile dual wielding was about.

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Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
BANNED
Member # 10021
Profile #11
I agree weapon poisoning should come back.

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Posts: 157 | Registered: Saturday, August 25 2007 07:00
Canned
Member # 8014
Profile #12
quote:
I agree weapon poisoning should come back.
Do you mean as a spell?
Because some weapons already have that.

Edit -Actually, this would imbalance things for how it is now. Besides, you have spells to inflict acid on enemies.

[ Saturday, August 25, 2007 16:29: Message edited by: Iffy ]

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Posts: 1799 | Registered: Sunday, February 4 2007 08:00
BANNED
Member # 10021
Profile #13
I mean you make a potion that you can use to poison your weapon for a time like in Exile.

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Posts: 157 | Registered: Saturday, August 25 2007 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
Profile Homepage #14
Or, heck, just have more weapons that drip poison like the Alien Blade. Or, for that matter, bring back item augmentation like in A3.

Of course, the idea of dual-wielding with one acid dagger and one poison dagger is too appealing to rule out. :D

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Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Guardian
Member # 5360
Profile #15
Nalyd knows this much: he's tired of stabbing. Every single attack animation, since the early days of G1! Just one slash thrown in there would be a great relief.

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Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 9851
Profile #16
The biggest thing for me, would be if equipment worn was better reflected. I am not talking about anything major, for example, if one of my characters was using an acid sword, it would be cool if the sword changed color to green, same with armor, just so that there is some visual interest to the characters, rather than staring at exactly the same sprites the whole game.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Saturday, August 18 2007 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7252
Profile #17
Yeah..a changing graphic due to equipment would be nice..

And at Nalyd's idea of different attack animations..I want to see my swordie do an overhead slash!

I mean..with the upcoming Battle Discipline System..the old stabbing animation just doesn't cut it..

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Posts: 732 | Registered: Saturday, June 24 2006 07:00
BANNED
Member # 10021
Profile #18
Well the bsttle discipline system might not even need difrent strokes if used in real life so it wouldn,t be necessary.

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There's a Starman some where in the sky.
Posts: 157 | Registered: Saturday, August 25 2007 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
Profile Homepage #19
The extra animations probably won't happen. If you're expecting super high-end graphics, you should look for a different game.

You Geneforge/A4 vets are spoiled. Back in the day of the Trilogy, back when it was a proper trilogy, we had one attack frame and we liked it.

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TM: "I want BoA to grow. Evolve where the food ladder has rungs to be reached."

Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice.
Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
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Profile #20
Yeah the games were still good back then just insanly huge.

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Let the children lose it
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Five years, thats all weve got
Weve got five years, stuck on my eyes
Five years, what a surprise
Weve got five years, my brain hurts a lot
Five years, thats all weve got
Weve got five years, what a surprise
Weve got five years, stuck on my eyes
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Five years, thats all weve got
Five years
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Posts: 157 | Registered: Saturday, August 25 2007 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7252
Profile #21
Uhm..I don't want want uber animation graphics..just..something added..heck..I still will like the poking motion..

And..Starman1985..could you shorten your signature? It's pretty long and boring..

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Posts: 732 | Registered: Saturday, June 24 2006 07:00
Warrior
Member # 246
Profile #22
This will probably be shot down, but if 3D graphics were used it would be easier to add effects like different armor colors (or textures). It would also make adding attacks easier since you wouldn't have to draw each position the character could potentially be in - you'd just rotate the model. This might not sound like much of an advantage until you consider that games using Geneforge's engine have around 16 positions along with around eight or so frames per position. That's 128 individual graphics cells that have to be drawn. Even if you drew in such a way that you could copy and paste whole chunks it is still time consuming and possibly quite expensive.

Edit: Before anyone complains about the increase to system requirements, consider other games. Age of Empires 3 for example has pretty fancy graphics and yet it runs on cards from up to three years ago (friend of mine has an FX 5700 which is really on par with GeForce 3 Ti). Granted the engine is highly optimized compared to most but it also makes use of fancy shader effects. Spidweb games would probably do well even without shader effects - especially if things like lighting were pre-calculated.

[ Sunday, August 26, 2007 23:50: Message edited by: Frobozz ]
Posts: 117 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #23
My understanding is that the graphics are already made in Poser, so I suppose something like that isn't completely out of the question.

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Warrior
Member # 8872
Profile #24
quote:
Originally written by Ephesos:

The extra animations probably won't happen. If you're expecting super high-end graphics, you should look for a different game.

You Geneforge/A4 vets are spoiled. Back in the day of the Trilogy, back when it was a proper trilogy, we had one attack frame and we liked it.

Exactly! But, change can be good. These games are evolving. And you can always replay the good oldies.

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