Requests for future games
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Apprentice
Member # 6532
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written Friday, December 9 2005 07:53
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This may not exactly be in the right forum, but I'm not really sure where to post it. I've always loved the Exile trilogy, and I think Jeff Vogel has lots of great ideas in his games. But over the past few years, a few things have been happening that have always bugged me and I finally have gotten around to officially complaining about. Although the 3D interfaces are mostly an improvement, in many ways, it seems to me that the graphics have gotten worse, not better, in ways that really shouldn't be necessary. The buttons in the original Exile actually looked pretty cool. But ever since Avernum, they've been becoming more and more cartoony and pixelated. The text that Vogel uses for dialogues and descriptions is the most bland typeface imaginable. Same thing for the main menu screen. This may seem like a silly complaint. But it really weakened my gaming experience in Avernum and Geneforge. Having an elegant looking font and non-cartoonish interface makes the whole game feel more professional, and it isn't a matter of artistic talent. Just substitute Times instead of Geneva or whatever. I'm also curious: I loved the music that came with Exile II, but that is the last music that ever came with a Spiderweb game. Is it actually owned by someone else? If not, (or if so) is it possible to just add it in as a optional feature in future Spiderweb games? And if a reasonably talented musician came along and offered their assistance, could they use the basic themes from that music to create newer music? Final note: I really loved the actual name "Exile" and was a little saddened when it was changed for the sake of the remake. I realize it's too late to change that now, but I thought I'd throw my two cents in. I don't mean to show up and post a bunch of negative stuff with my first thread, but these things have bothered me for a while and it seems to me they should be fixable. Posts: 4 | Registered: Friday, December 9 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3933
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written Friday, December 9 2005 09:08
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i think youre absolutely right in all points, and it is a good complaint, because realizable. not sure about the forum though ;) but hm ok, i actually was satisfied with the fonts... dont remember what the changes were over the years. but id hate something like times, over these hundreds and thousands of pages to be read in a spidweb game. -------------------- OH MY GOD IT'S THE FUNKY ****!!! Posts: 425 | Registered: Wednesday, January 28 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, December 9 2005 09:16
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Avernum was definitely a step down in graphics, but I happen to think that Geneforge looks okay, and A4 looks fine. It's definitely not the same style as Exile, but I like it. The button change is a matter of taste. I don't really care that much, although now that you point it out I suppose E3/BoE does have the prettier buttons. The font I don't care so much about. If it's legible, it's fine. I don't particularly need even modest frills like serif fonts. On title screens I disagree: Avernums 1 and 2 have the best, although the humor of the E3 "Yarik's Temple" adventure is a plus. I'm not sure why Jeff has chosen to make the intro screens less exciting. I do know why music is out: MIDI doesn't sound all that good, and Jeff doesn't want to bloat downloads by adding nice music. Even if it's not much of an expense, adding a single piece of music doesn't add much you can't do yourself with your own music, and adding a track for all different environments and occurrences would add a lot of size to the downloads, which would hurt those dialup users who download Spiderweb games. —Alorael, who also liked Exile. It fit with part of the slight deliberately generic air of Exile/Avernum, and it also gave the E3 opening a better beginning: "Exile - v.t. to banish or expel..." Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6489
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written Friday, December 9 2005 09:36
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Apparently, I'm one of the only people on these boards to have this opinion, but I like Avernum better than Exile. I just find it a lot easier to use, and found Exile to be too hard. Maybe if Exile had been my first Spiderweb game I would feal differently, but I the first game I played was Nethergate, so I kind of fell in love with the graphics. I do prefer the graphics of Avernum to the graphics of Geneforge though. I also don't care for all the graphics they changed for BoA either, especially the graphics for coins. What's up with that? They just luck like metallic lumps now. -------------------- "You're drinking liquor because you're thirsty? How nasty is your freaking water?" —Lazarus Spiderweb Chat Room Avernum RP • Summaries • OoC • Roster Shadow Vale - My site, home of the Spiderweb Chat Database, BoA Scenario Database, & the A1 Quest List, among other things. Posts: 1556 | Registered: Sunday, November 20 2005 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3813
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written Friday, December 9 2005 09:39
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I think you are absolutely correct about the fonts. I'm not sure why, but reading text in Avernum is damn near impossible for me - and I just use reading glasses. No other UI gives me as much trouble as the font and poor contrast in Avernum. Having said that, it's still my favorite game. Though I'll admit to longing for Exile on my old Mac Performa every now and then! Posts: 33 | Registered: Monday, December 22 2003 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Friday, December 9 2005 10:21
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quote:Not so... I've always been an Avernum person. Height differences add so much to the game (thus I infer that 3d is awesome). Thus, I'm a little angry with how A4 turned out, general 3d-ness aside. I miss height... I do agree with Alorael that A4 looks fine, however. The graphics are generally a huge step up from the rest of the series, and animations... did I mention animations? I've never played any Geneforge, but I like seeing animations in Avernum. And about music... I find that the background sounds actually enhance the mood quite nicely. A4's are particularly nice, and I've loved working with the stock sounds in BoA. -------------------- Thuryl: "Runescape: for people who are too stupid to save their games." Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6532
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written Friday, December 9 2005 10:55
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The main menu screens haven't exactly gotten worse, but they could really be a lot better. I'm not sure if Jeff has photoshop or not, but I think it would be a decent investment, because making awesome looking titles becomes a snap. I guess my problem is that in the original Exile, it wasn't a matter of having bad graphics. The graphics were essentially non-existant, so I didn't even really notice that they were "bad." Whereas ever since Avernum, it's clear that he's trying hard to make the graphics better, and therefore it's easier for me to see how far they fall short of a really high end game. This wasn't too much of a problem for me in Avernum, but playing Geneforge felt really painful for this reason. Regardless, I'm not complaining about the actual game engine. I know he's doing the best he can with that. But there is no reason that the interface could not be better. Another thing I miss: The old communication system. Forcing players to come up with things to ask about was, I thought, the most ingenius aspect of the Exile trilogy that set it apart from other games. The simple "click on the conversation thread you want to start" idea is used in every other RPG out there, and isn't particularly interesting. Posts: 4 | Registered: Friday, December 9 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6489
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written Friday, December 9 2005 11:04
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quote:The only problem with that is that you don't always know what tosay, or you do, but say the wrong word. I preferred Nethergate's system where you could either click on individual words in the dialogue or ask about something. -------------------- "You're drinking liquor because you're thirsty? How nasty is your freaking water?" —Lazarus Spiderweb Chat Room Avernum RP • Summaries • OoC • Roster Shadow Vale - My site, home of the Spiderweb Chat Database, BoA Scenario Database, & the A1 Quest List, among other things. Posts: 1556 | Registered: Sunday, November 20 2005 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6532
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written Friday, December 9 2005 11:27
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Sometimes I got frustrated by that, but for the most part I thought that was part of the fun. Learning to figure out what sorts of things were worth asking about was an important skill in the game. Going back to Exile 3/Nethergate would be okay, but that system still felt to me like it was dumbing down the game. I realize that this aspect of the game is probably going to be a lot more controversial than the graphics, though. Posts: 4 | Registered: Friday, December 9 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6501
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written Friday, December 9 2005 11:39
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I agree completely with Ephesos, the graphics are better but A4 looks best. Maybe the pit in one of the screenshots means that there are heights. That was a very important feature for me in all Avernum games. I do also miss the music very much!!! :( Maybe Jeff will use music in his next games, it does give the game a important improvement! PLEASE use music Jeff!) If not I´m going to ... :mad: :mad: :mad: -------------------- You know, why the Sliths are green - because of their scales. Maybe you know why some slith eyes were once red - ´cause the demons, which led them were red. But why are the eyes of the Slith Lord Followers red? Because they see the remains of their enemies always before the battle begins! Posts: 179 | Registered: Friday, November 25 2005 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Friday, December 9 2005 13:13
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Wow, this game isn't even out yet and there is yet another of these types of threads saying just how wrong, bad, or somehow flawed the Avernum and Geneforge series of games are. Somebody give me a reason why this shouldn't be moved to general or something. **Taps tentacle on desk** -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Friday, December 9 2005 13:36
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Hmm, people were just rejoicing that at least there were no Vlish in A4: I guess this was premature. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3171
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written Friday, December 9 2005 13:39
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I like the Avernum graphics better than Exile, but it's purely because it was the first spiderweb game that I played. I have never liked geneforge though, but who knows, the mix of the games which is Avernum IV might actually be good. Theres no way to tell until it comes out. Posts: 776 | Registered: Friday, July 4 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, December 9 2005 14:04
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I'm also one of the people who prefer Avernum to Exile. The dialogue system happens to be a large part of it: I just like Avernum's setup more. Nethergate was okay, but I prefer full sentences and I prefer having new conversation options presented when they should be available so I don't have to go through a list of buzzwords I've picked up. Equally importantly, Avernum doesn't let you skip plot because you already know the right words. "Divu" in E1 and so on. I already explained why Jeff is opposed to putting music in his games. As long as he has septuagenarian Eskimo customers on dialup, no music. —Alorael, who admits that Nethergate was huge step forward over E3/BoA for dialogue. Exile had clickable dialogue words, but seeing blue prompt words instead of having to click at random is much, much nicer. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 932
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written Friday, December 9 2005 14:26
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The first Spiderweb Software game I played was Exile 2: Crystal Souls. It was a demo off a shareware CD that had a copy of Cyberdogs on it. (I loved Cyberdogs, but lost my copy, and didn't have the 'net back then. I just realised that I'm reminiscing like some kind of senile old coot.) Although Exile 2 was what got me hooked on Spiderweb Software games, it is far from my favourite. I'm a stickler for consistency, and for some reason the Exile series just seemed to have too many inconsistencies for my tastes. There are still a number of them in the Avernum Trilogy, but (thankfully) a smaller amount of them. I have absolutely hated games like Quake 3 because of both poor execution and the complete lack of plot in single player. I've loved games like ZZT, which uses ASCII to represent everything. So when it comes to graphics, I really couldn't give a stuff - as long as they are consistant. The most important thing to me is plot and character development. Although Jeff is really beginning to wear my patience thin in the originality stakes, the character development is amongst the best I've seen. As long as Jeff manages to keep at least to the same standard as with Exile 2, he'll keep my patronage. But for the record, my favourite Spiderweb game is Avernum 2; (hardly) suprising, 'eh? And: E3/BoA? Force of habit, Alorael? [ Friday, December 09, 2005 14:32: Message edited by: CPeters ] -------------------- Microsoft Patents Ones, Zeroes (March 25, 1998) "Asians are good at Starcraft because they're always squinting, thus they can see things sharply. Remember to always squint in war." ~ Sun-Tzu Posts: 215 | Registered: Sunday, April 7 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Friday, December 9 2005 14:56
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quote:I agree. A2 was the best of the trilogy by far, and it's the only one I ever gave a dedicated replay to. Of course, A4 is good, it just can't really be compared to the first three (and BoA, fine). Actually, I think A4 > A3. But that shouldn't be a surprise. And lastly, this forum is thoroughly deserving of this topic. Whenever a new game comes out, it sparks this controversy. And besides, General is... well, too general. How often do you see actual discussions of the games in General? I do not mean to offend you O Mighty Tentacle, but this topic should stay put. -------------------- Thuryl: "Runescape: for people who are too stupid to save their games." Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, December 9 2005 15:05
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Your Exile/Avernum preference is almost always related to which one you played first. I played A1 first, so I like Avernum more, including the graphics and dialogue. A4... well... it's fine, I guess. Now that I'm finishing the game, I'm getting pretty darn sick of making the same "amazing discoveries" as I did in all of the previous Avernum games. In a few days, I'll be able to say more. And you know, I'd never thought of it before, but I agree that the Exile font was a little better than the Avernum one. EDIT: By the way, if you want to let Jeff know what you think, e-mail him. He doesn't read these boards, but if enough people e-mail him, he may begin to care. [ Friday, December 09, 2005 15:16: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Mongolian Barbeque
Member # 1528
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written Friday, December 9 2005 15:28
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I like the graphics in Avernum 3 best, but prefer the dialogue system of Nethergate. Geneforge... meh. The world was flat, the terrain graphics were clustered in blocks that looked worse than terrain in the Avernum games, and the super-glossy character graphics jarred somehow with the game world. They looked too good compared with the terrain. Posts: 907 | Registered: Monday, July 15 2002 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, December 9 2005 18:10
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I played Exile first and I prefer Avernum. —Alorael, who was going to make a point about BoA and then didn't. It stuck around in place of BoE. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6532
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written Friday, December 9 2005 20:18
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I'd like to point out that I WASN'T sure if this was the right forum. If someone wants to move the post, that's fine by me. From the looks of it though, I think this forum could use the love. Vizhunairee, can you explain the Aloreal thing to me? Posts: 4 | Registered: Friday, December 9 2005 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, December 9 2005 23:41
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His forum name is Alorael. He changes his publicly displayed name daily in protest of the fact that he doesn't have a custom title despite having by far the most posts of anyone here. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Master
Member # 5977
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written Saturday, December 10 2005 00:18
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Okay, before I start, I have to agree with kelandon about the fact that the game you like most is often the game you played first. That's why my favorite game is Avernum 3 and after that Averum 1 and 2 in that order. quote:I always loved the Avernum graphics, but as I (and Keladon) already said, this is purely because I first played Avernum. It took me some time to get used to the Exile graphics, and I still hate everything about Geneforge. I do think that the Nethergate graphics were an improvement, and that it became better in Avernum (that is, the graphics that changed, which weren't a lot of them). The introduction screens of Avernum 1 and 2 I really liked, also the intro music. However, this changed with Avernum 3 and BoA. That I just didn't like. The Exile 1 and 2 intro screen I also didn't really like. I saw, though, that the Avernum 3 and Boa, and Exile 3 and BoE intro screen where almost identical. Maybe that's the reason i didn't like them. However, the graphics of Geneforge I really hate. I don't really know what it is about them, but they fill me with disgust. I'm sorry if I offended any geneforge player reading this. quote:Hmmm, I never paid much attention to that, but i must say that I don't really like the cartoonish pictures in the "info" menu. In that respect Exile did a lot better (If I remember correctly, Exile didn't have them at all). I don't reallyu care about the font. Only if the font is that bad that I can't read what is written, it annoys me, but in other cases I don't care. (now that i think about it, i did like the more "wild" font of exile. It fitted better with the rest of the game) quote:The music, yes, well, first time I listened to the Exile music I was very dissappointed it wasn't put in Avernum. Not long ago (maybe a month or so) I started putting the whole Exile 1 music into my notation program. Its quite hard, because I have to listen to the music and write every note down. If I just import it I get a messed up piece of music which a normal person could not possibly understand when seeing it. My plan is to take the Exile 1 music and arrange it for orchestra. I could post it somewhere when its finished, but I have the feeling that will still take some time. quote:Oh well, I like the name Avernum better, so that's just a matter of taste. About the dialogue I happen to like Avernum more, and that's only because of the nicer (I think "eye-friendly" is the word) screen. With Exile 1 and 2 it was just a screen (grey, was it?). I didn't like that. I also got frustrated because of that you had to type a certain word to progress. This, however, can be great because you have to actually talk yourself, and not just click things. Also, when you have played Exile for a while, you tend to understand how the system works and you are more likely to type the good words. In Exile 3 and BoE the screen changed, but I still didn't really like it. This was mainly because of the smallish screen and this enormous letters in it. I was all a bit to crowded to my taste. [ Saturday, December 10, 2005 00:19: Message edited by: Thralni, chicken god prophet ] -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00 |