How I rank A4 and why
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| Author | Topic: How I rank A4 and why |
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Warrior
Member # 2902
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written Thursday, December 15 2005 23:19
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Ok, so after playing a few hours with the A4 Demo, admitted there are some advantages in A4 but here are some of my points of what I'm missing and why I feel A4 is a step backwards compared to A1-3 and ABlades and leaves me, on the bottom line, with mixed feelings about A4. Unfortunately I don't share the idea that A4 is a major hit or even a progress, though I'm going to order it anyway because I always liked the A atmosphere and story and hope that it returns somewhere after the Demo :) (maybe even incl. A5). Just take the opposite of these items and you've got my suggestions for future enhancements: - seems to have no real hidden secrets anymore, I think thats a major component, gift and stimulation to RPGs, A4 seems to fail here (at least what I have seen in the Demo by now, and the Demo isn't small :) or maybe I just didn't found them, tell me if there are...) - no character editor (I'm not looking for an editor to make a god but to avoid inconveniences, test and save real time, have to use the hexeditor now, well at least I didn't had to use it with the A4 Demo yet, but the fact remains that compared to the rest of the Avernum series it is a reduced functionality!) - when in fight mode no letters appear for the enemys anymore, selecting them with the mouse only is a major annoyance compared to previous Avernum games (correct me if I'm wrong and there is an option to activate this) - is there no option to activate a grid anymore? In dark areas this would be nice. - graphics remind me far to often of Geneforge (especially many monster graphics), it just doesn't feel right (And I don't like the Geneforge graphic style anyway) - for some reason, A4 Demo feels much more linear to me than previous Avernum games, hope that this changes later on. - now there is only "one map" (which certainly has its advantages), but scale doesn't feel right anymore, also since you're just fighting in the same scale, distances seem to be much much shorter. Distances feel "unrealistic" compared to the large scale map of the old Avernum. - as far as I remember, there is no 2nd level or higher anymore from which you can oversee the 1st level (another HUGE drawback due to the "one map" style) In old Avernum games this generated a better dimensional feeling and strategic situations, Cities and Castles (or similar) just looked nicer too. A4 becomes kind of to "flat", this is a big disappointment and for me it renders the advantages of the new style & new character control marginal. - no real secret doors anymore I as the player have to search for...?! argh I hated this already with Geneforge. I think this is an intrinsic component to any good classical RPG and something I liked a lot (see hidden areas) :( - errr, is this really intentional that I can't cast light anymore or use a lantern in dark areas, or did I miss something? - I don't feel that the Character- and Spell-System is any better than in Blades or A3. So why was it changed then again?! Also some of the cool old Avernum spells seem to stay forgotten... :( Well this is what comes to my mind and why after playing the Demo, A4 at the moment (Demo) definitely ranks below Nethergate, A1-3 and Blades of Avernum for me. My Demo conclusion: I personally feel that A4 became to "Geneforgish". Though I rate it quite low compared to other Spidweb games, it is still worth trying (in case you haven't), since it is nevertheless more fun than many other RPGs out there! just my 2 cents Abraxx PS I know that many of you might disagree, which is fine with me, but if you don't have something constructive to reply to my points and how I feel about A4 and you just want to flame, save your time, you're not going to change my opinion, otherwise comments or corrections appreciated :) -------------------- * Knowledge is Might * Posts: 130 | Registered: Monday, April 21 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Thursday, December 15 2005 23:38
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Wow. That's a big post... but generally speaking, thank you for sharing. And one question: do you honestly think that A3 was better? How could you? Linearity is good when it's implemented well (which I feel A4 does, particularly beyond the demo). I mean, A2 was fairly linear when you came right down to it. A3, the least linear, was probably the worst. Distances are perfectly realistic. Have you noticed how long it takes to run from Fort Draco to Fort Monastery? Yes, we miss elevation. And secret passages. And light, really. Light was good. As for some of this, it's inevitable when you consider that Jeff was trying to update the Avernum engine. EDIT: typo. [ Thursday, December 15, 2005 23:38: Message edited by: Ephesos ] -------------------- Thuryl: "Runescape: for people who are too stupid to save their games." Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 2902
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written Friday, December 16 2005 00:00
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quote:Well regarding linearity, as I mentioned till now I only played the Demo. Even if implemented well I prefer less linearity. But I agree that if implemented well linearity can be fun to. :) Regarding distances I disagree. e.g. compare shooting ranges A4. And now compare this to the scale of the travel map in the older Avernum games. I don't mean the real life time when clicking/walking from one village to the other but the scales how it compares to the "old" Avernum. It just doesn't fit or at least it gives the feeling of a much smaller Avernum cave to me, comparing sizes of walls, ranges, fungis ;) etc... Ok one could argue that if Jeff would have made distances longer, people would have complained that travelling is annoying (or could have been), yet I would counter with that it is a question of functionality offered, random encounters, events, graphical landscape dispersion etc Nevertheless, these two points are not my strongest reasons why feel A4 is not a progress. krgds my 2 cents Abraxx -------------------- * Knowledge is Might * Posts: 130 | Registered: Monday, April 21 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4239
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written Friday, December 16 2005 02:27
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quote:It takes about five times longer than it takes to run through Fort Draco. So, not really that long. :P In an older game it would probably have been only 2 map distances, but those two maps would have been 15 or 20 times as far as outdoors-level map of Fort Draco, which is much more realistic. I'm not really arguing for the old style or the new style here; I really think it's just more of a sidestep. Oh, and there actually is a grid when you go into combat, you just have to look closely. -------------------- There are two kinds of game players...those who are newbies, and those who were. Posts: 322 | Registered: Monday, April 12 2004 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 2902
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written Friday, December 16 2005 05:56
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quote:I think the term sidestep fits quite well :) regarding the grid you are right, but its just not really visible with darker areas and I haven't seen an option anymore to specifically switch a visible grid on and off, that is where my concern is coming from :) -------------------- * Knowledge is Might * Posts: 130 | Registered: Monday, April 21 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 2902
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written Friday, December 16 2005 08:43
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Just came up with something more, which might even be changed with a patch (like light and letters for enemy selection): - The maximum click distance should be a bit more far away from the character position. The ...to far away... message gets a bit annoying too. - Would be nice to see the armor value in the inventory window, makes changing equipment based on armor more convenient. - Switching from inventory window to statistics window should be just one click not more. my 2 cents Abraxx -------------------- * Knowledge is Might * Posts: 130 | Registered: Monday, April 21 2003 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 6554
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written Friday, December 16 2005 10:25
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i agree with you on some parts abraxx it is annoying that you can't click on creatures i liked secret passages but sometimes i simply HATED THEM THERE WAS TOO MANY DANG PASSAGES TO FIND other than that i really like it -------------------- join me! we shall harness the power of geckos, bunnys, and fluffy pink stuffed animals and rule the world!!! Posts: 193 | Registered: Wednesday, December 14 2005 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Friday, December 16 2005 11:05
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quote:Are you mad? A4 beyond the demo is just a matter of "kill X number of plagues to gain enough levels to kill remaining X number of plagues before reaching the Castle". Chitraches (who are not supposed to look like goddamned clawbugs!), undead, bandits... Okay, so we get to the castle. First, there's a trap that any dumbass could smell from miles away. Then, there's another trap that's even more egregiously conceived. (Honestly, I expected the crystal box to blow up and incinerate the whole castle. They really were asking for it.) Then, um, go off and kill Rentar. Then go off and kill her again. Game over. This is like some sort of hideous parody. A3 was no good, but A4's plot is genuinely unbearable. I mean, the shades were a very nice idea... Dorikas' band was an interesting concept at first... But everything else was 100% re-hashed. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Friday, December 16 2005 11:34
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It still beats A3 in my mind. I honestly enjoyed A4, and I could care less if that makes me clinically insane to the rest of you. TM, you're really being spoilerrific here. -------------------- Thuryl: "Runescape: for people who are too stupid to save their games." Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 2902
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written Friday, December 16 2005 12:10
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quote:Well the fact that you like it does not make you clinically insane to me, but I rather would like to have this thread more factual. :) I enjoy the A4 Demo too, I'm just pointing to reasons why I feel that the series with A4 does not seem to make a good progress in a direction which I personally like, real enhancement (not just change for the sake of it) and fun (without sacrificing good functions etc (why change a running system and mixing the atmosphere of two different RPGs)). So thats the reasoning I come from. Maybe you should just point to the facts why you disagree instead. I at least would be interested and maybe it would reduce a bit my disappointment of A4 too :) krgds Abraxx -------------------- * Knowledge is Might * Posts: 130 | Registered: Monday, April 21 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 2902
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written Friday, December 16 2005 12:57
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quote:Chitraches now look like clawbugs?! What was wrong with the old graphic set for Chitraches? Again another change just for the sake of it? Hm if this is basically the structure how it goes on, I really wonder if I better wait and read some parts of a walkthrough or so to get confirmation. I don't want to have to add plot disappointment to my list too... :( It underlines my feel of to much linearity now combined with a predictability, which is usually a deathblow for a RPG. I personally liked A3 (and I didn't had so many concerns like with A4 now) but I don't want to basically play A3 monsterplagues again with Geneforge graphics... I hope Jeff gets back to the roots with an A5 or something new... -------------------- * Knowledge is Might * Posts: 130 | Registered: Monday, April 21 2003 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 6554
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written Friday, December 16 2005 13:55
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well i think it's excellent but then i like stuff like tetris it is good compared to exile and better then geneforge better then a3 and a1 but not a2 -------------------- join me! we shall harness the power of geckos, bunnys, and fluffy pink stuffed animals and rule the world!!! Posts: 193 | Registered: Wednesday, December 14 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Friday, December 16 2005 14:29
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Abraxx, there's no reason to double-post, but I will still honor your request. So, here's my reasoning: I feel that the A4 world stays fairly true to everything that A2 established. The towns are the same (except the assumedly new Fort Monastery and Fort Ganrick's apparent conversion into a mine), and old characters are still around, with a good explanation for why. Plotwise, everything is well-justified and well-thought-out. While you may see the ending coming, there are still enough surprises (some of them rather painful and burn-inducing) along the way. It all makes sense by the time you get to the end, and Jeff still manages to inject a sense of humor into bits of the game (which I'm personally amazed by). Combat is well-balanced, by which I mean that you can't just hack through everything (not without killing yourself in the process), and you can't just roast everything with spells (casters are very vulnerable to melee in this game). There are enough varied challenges, from stealth missions to a well-done escort mission (practically unbelievable, but true), to ye olde hack n' slash. You've got your old standbys, like the iron bar quest in Monastery, the Jade Halberd and Demonslayer, and the Spiral Crypt. From stupid rock-slinging giants to venomous chitrachs (just play along with the graphic), the old enemies are there. And finally, the number of super-enemies is plausible, by which I mean you'll never run into fifty haaki at once, or get swarmed by shamblers when you're already injured. A4 has linearity which works. Like A2, there's a few major quests to finish, but this time, you don't have to do all of them. The host of minor quests (some of which will get towns mad at you) is impressive, and there's always something interesting to kill. You're going in a definite direction (not like that's a bad thing), but there'e enough stuff along the way to make you forget about it at times. And like I said before, at least this is linearity with a logical flow. Predictability? Come on, there was so much speculation about A4 that someone was inevitably going to get their prediction correct. And just because Jeff chose to make the game a plausible sequel to A3, this doesn't make it a bad thing. After all, A3 left a huge loose end, and I don't see how he could've made A4 without resolving it. Just like A4 leaves a huge loose end that will probably (hopefully) drive A5, A3 provided a logical course for A4. Simply put, you've got the atmosphere of Avernum, which we all came to love in A2. And it's that same atmosphere that makes A4 worthwhile. -------------------- Thuryl: "Runescape: for people who are too stupid to save their games." Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, December 16 2005 16:38
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I think this is my permanent take on A4's plot, having tried it out once before and liked it: A4 followed quite logically from A3's plot, but A3's plot was such a turn for the worse that A4 suffered. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, December 16 2005 18:26
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All the other games hinge on some element of surprise. Everything is a surprise in A1. The point of the game really isn't the plot, because it's barely there. The point is discovering the strange new world of Avernum. The vahnatai are the big surprise of A2, and they're one of the best additions to Avernum. The big mystery of who's behind the plagues drives most of A3. It's not a good plot, but at least it's a surprise. A4 follows too logically from A3. There's no surprise. It's not all linear any more than A2 is. Note that A2's demo is also a beeline to the vahnatai lands. A4 has the same setup: once you reach the Eastern Gallery just past Formello, you're free to meander. It's just that there's no cool new thing like the vahnatai, or even the surface, to appreciate. It's not A3's fault that A4 is boring. Jeff could have stuck in plot twists. In fact, I was hoping for them. The plagues seemed like a perfect setup as a parody of A3 from which something interesting would emerge. But no, nothing came of it. —Alorael, who doesn't think he'd prefer A4 to A3 if it used the old Avernum engine. Only the new combat and better tactical challenges make the game worth playing. Well, that and the usual indefinable air of Avernum, which A3 spectacularly lacked. He currently thinks A4 is superior to A3 but inferior to A1 and A2. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Saturday, December 17 2005 19:40
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Couldn't have said it better. Beware, spoilers ahead. My main issue with A4 is that it has utter predictability in plotline. Yes, it follows logically from A3, but too logically. At least in A3 we didn't know the Vahnatai did it until later in the game. This was the "big surprise" in the game. A4 has no mistery. By the time we reach Formello, we have a pretty good idea what is going on and who is behind it all. Motrax's Lair pretty much confirms it and seeing that good old Rentar is behind everything is not a leap of imagination at all. Ironically, when I said this to Jeff he reacted quite offensively to any challenge in his paradigm. Pity, because there were so many avenues to persue such as the Slith Wars with real motivations other than they are evil and savage. The Darkside Loyalists worked quite well and had more focus been on them all the better. Betrayal by a powerful wizard, unconstrained ancient Vahnatai magic, some new ominous threat, etc. could have been potential avenues. However, Jeff picks 'Kill Rentar' which is the most obvious and storyline that has been the butt of so many joke BoE scenarios. Not to say A4 is all bad; there are good parts, but plot is not one of them. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, December 17 2005 20:27
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Plot isn't one of them, puzzles aren't one of them, and even exploration isn't really one of them. There's a little bit in a few areas, notably the warrens of caves under the Eastern Gallery and the southern Great Cave and to some extent the Honeycomb, but most of what you explore is familiar territory from A1 and A2 and most of it is close to civilization. There are no Dark Waters or Waterfall Warrens, no Lost Bahssikava, no remote northern lands. Even the land past Fort Remote has become pretty obvious. I didn't think I'd miss wall bumping, but I do. The Spiral Crypt isn't the same. The outdoors have no secrets. Nowhere really has any secrets. —Alorael, who can only think of two more elements of A4. The combat has already been praised, and it is good. The only other thing is the Avernum ambience, which is still there. It's not as pronounced as in A1 or A2, but it's not missing like in A3. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Saturday, December 17 2005 21:01
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It made me angry at first when I found out that there were still undead in Mertis. You break the curse in A2. Why the hell are there still undead there? I worry that the Darkside Loyalists in A5 will have motives just as flimsy as Rentar's. It would be wonderful if Jeff would actually take a short time to outline a character sketch of Dorikas and give us some background about why he thinks what he thinks. Jeff has given some evidence of motives before (ASR, the GFs), and it would be nice if he did it again in A5. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 4866
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written Saturday, December 17 2005 21:05
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Forgetting the plot here, I feel that A3 and BoA were more "complete" and polished then A4 is. I prefered the simplicity of the A3 graphics to A4 because there was alot more variety and such in the models. -------------------- Worship the monkey Posts: 20 | Registered: Wednesday, August 18 2004 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Saturday, December 17 2005 21:31
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I'm not sure I understand the part about the A3 graphics having more variety. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 932
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written Saturday, December 17 2005 22:07
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Jeffy, Jeffy, Jeffy... I am ever so disappointed with you. I'll be showing my contempt for this ...garbage... with my wallet. Rentar... again? Monster plagues... again? :mad: I don't care how good the engine is, if this lackluster tripe you call a plot is what you are using to entice us, then you've got a screw loose. To paraphrase Maddox: "I'd rather gargle a bucket full of diarrhea than play Avernum 4". -------------------- Microsoft Patents Ones, Zeroes (March 25, 1998) "Asians are good at Starcraft because they're always squinting, thus they can see things sharply. Remember to always squint in war." ~ Sun-Tzu Posts: 215 | Registered: Sunday, April 7 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6566
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written Saturday, December 17 2005 22:25
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Hmmm...Well, I've played all the spiderweb games, starting from exile 1 on an old mac games CD from 94 95; I love all of them. That being said, there were a few things missing from A4 that really made me sad. There were also some good things, so... Good: I like the idea of having a continuous dungeon, it's cool to be able to travel under or above everything and travel the same distance, great idea! I also kinda like how traits like Divine touch give you increasing bonuses as you level, feels slightly more usefull and possibly realistic. Bad: As for bad, I felt that many of the things missing were a matter of challenge. To begin with, I use to *love* spending all that time trying to figure out some mind bending puzzle, adjusting a crate just so, or timing your steps between lazers, etc. There seems to be none of that, which is depressing. If I want hack and slash I can go play Halo or Diablo. I like Spiderweb games because it made me think, and it had a plot, which brings me to my next point. What happened to the deep storylines that left me wishing there was a book? That made me want to be there (in avernum). The story is there in A4, but it felt a little like it was half finished. I mean, obviously Rentar had to make an apearance again, but I was hoping for some great plot twist that sprung the underworld into something much bigger. I thought the Darkside was going to turn out that way, but apparently not. I've always liked the Avernums because of the epic depth that could be felt, at least to me, in all the games. And the graphics of the Avernums while simple, were relativly orginal. Geneforge recycling....Granted, I know that he's only one guy, but I'm willing to bet there are allot of fans out there who can make graphics and would be willing to slap them in his lap. I'm rambling, but then, I feel strongly about these games. Also, I'm certain, because they were in previous Avernums, that there are more than one female and one male slith/Nephil graphic. It can't be very dificult to just throw them in. I mean, it's a mundane little thing, but I like the atmosphere of having different looking character graphics. Not to mention Character faces that fit their bodies (red haired guardian!?). Unlimited arrows; one thing I felt was cool was having to ballance cost and weight of arrows, plus different arrow types, and making sure that the archer could fall back on melle in the event of running out of arrows. Now, it's less of a challenge, 'cause you don'y have to train that archer in anything but archery, dexterity, and maybe a little endurance (more or less). Other little stupid things include: I liked having the day in avernum listed near the map, plus the different effects every day had (Cheaper spell day!!). Not sure if days still have that effect. I also rather enjoyed (even while anoyed) having to light candles or cast a spell to be able to see around. I mean, we are in a bunch of caves, albeit caves with glowing fungus on the ceiling. I'm going to stop talking soon. Sorry. All that being said, I did enjoy the game, it kept me going throughout, but partly because I was expecting some of the great storylines and puzzles of times past. I cry lots. But thanks a bunch for all the years of fun Jeff! Posts: 5 | Registered: Saturday, December 17 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5268
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written Saturday, December 17 2005 23:06
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quote:You will have to - archery isn't a long term strategy. Useful, even necessary, but not sufficient. As such, you think more of the tactical benefits and costs of archery rather than the annoyance of tracking down ammo. I think the unlimited arrows was great. More generally, I think the engine developed for A4 is wonderful - it makes it worth playing and fun. The tactical challenges and variety of combat situations keeps you going to the end. The less said about the plot the better. Posts: 148 | Registered: Tuesday, December 7 2004 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 4866
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written Sunday, December 18 2005 00:11
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quote:Like having much more selection in your character model, actually being able to see what your character has equiped(for weapons and shields anyway) and just stuff like that instead of the recycled Geneforge graphics. -------------------- Worship the monkey Posts: 20 | Registered: Wednesday, August 18 2004 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 5977
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written Sunday, December 18 2005 00:19
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quote:Oh god. As much as I like the Cahnatai, Jeff really had no idea what to mkae in Avernum 4, did he. Again the Vahnatai is a bit obsesive. I understand Rentar is furiuos for what you did in Avernum 3, but there are other monsters in Avernum as well which would like to see Avernum or the Empire bleed to death. -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00 |
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