Moral dilemmas

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AuthorTopic: Moral dilemmas
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Tuesday, March 7 2006 19:45 Profile Homepage #25
quote:
Originally written by Walter:

Also, there is that farmer who wants to know what is happening in Fort Avernum (does anyone know if it actually matters whether you tell him, or follow the rules and keep it a secret?)
Well, telling him doesn't have any adverse consequences later on, if that's what you mean. I forget whether you get a reward for doing so.

quote:
And how about the imprisioned eyebeast west of Cotra? If you kill it the mayor is quite upset about how much they could have learned from it, yet you get some nice rewards for doing so, and if left alone it might trick someone else into letting it escape.
The mayor's judgement on that issue is a little suspect, if you ask me. Cotra's city jail isn't an appropriate long-term containment facility for an eyebeast, and putting a few easily-bypassed warding runes around it doesn't change that. Now if the Tower of Magi was looking after it, that might be a different story -- but considering their track record with dangerous magical beasts, maybe that's not such a great idea either.

[ Tuesday, March 07, 2006 19:47: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Ephesos
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
 written Tuesday, March 7 2006 19:49 Profile Homepage #26
quote:
Originally written by Walter:

And how about the imprisioned eyebeast west of Cotra? If you kill it the mayor is quite upset about how much they could have learned from it, yet you get some nice rewards for doing so, and if left alone it might trick someone else into letting it escape.
Ah, there's a trick to this... you question it, then tell the mayor that you didn't learn anything. Then you go kill the eyebeast, and the mayor doesn't care. You don't even get the option to tell the mayor that you killed it.

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Thuryl: "Runescape: for people who are too stupid to save their games."

Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice.
Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Walter
Infiltrator
Member # 878
 written Tuesday, March 7 2006 19:51 Profile #27
Yes, that allows you to get both rewards, but it doesn't make things better from a moral point of view.

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Warning: Posts may contain misspellinks and typo.s
Posts: 409 | Registered: Sunday, March 31 2002 08:00
Ephesos
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
 written Tuesday, March 7 2006 20:32 Profile Homepage #28
Yes it does. Not only do you get to enact some vengeance for the beast's participation in the sacking of Cotra, but you also help out the mayor by taking a dangerous prisoner off Cotra's hands. And your interrogation prevents others from being tempted, tricked and killed by the beast.

It's a win/win/win, really. Everybody wins, except for the eyebeast.

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Thuryl: "Runescape: for people who are too stupid to save their games."

Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice.
Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Octavo
Apprentice
Member # 4231
 written Tuesday, March 7 2006 21:52 Profile #29
I agree with Randomizer's morality suggestion; something like the reputation in Geneforge, but general rather than specific-to-Serviles. Oh, and stealing would of course be bad. :evil:

(Yes, I know that smiley doesn't exist here. But it should.)

quote:
Originally written by Milla:

Or would it be Aranae?
In Latin, a plural ending in -a usually comes from a singular ending in -um.
Lots of aranea, one araneum?
Sometimes it's stranger, as with nomen -> nomina.
Lots of aranea, one aranen?

On the other hand, a singular -a becomes a plural -ae.
One aranea, lots of araneae?
Of course, not being neuter gender, this has the side effect that the accusative changes. Therefore,
The aranea casts a spell.
The araneae cast spells.
I vanquished an araneam.
We vanquished many araneas.

Or does Latin even apply to Avernum?

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Lifetime Spiderweb Gamer
and Fan of Classic Style Graphics
Posts: 42 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Ubbelubb
Apprentice
Member # 6913
 written Wednesday, March 15 2006 05:28 Profile #30
quote:
Originally written by Walter:


And how about the imprisioned eyebeast west of Cotra? If you kill it the mayor is quite upset about how much they could have learned from it, yet you get some nice rewards for doing so, and if left alone it might trick someone else into letting it escape.
Talk to the eyebeast, get the reward from the mayor, go back and kill it, and get the reward for the eyestalk.

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Segla i medvind
Posts: 8 | Registered: Wednesday, March 15 2006 08:00
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Wednesday, March 15 2006 14:21 Profile Homepage #31
quote:
Originally written by Ubbelubb:

quote:
Originally written by Walter:


And how about the imprisioned eyebeast west of Cotra? If you kill it the mayor is quite upset about how much they could have learned from it, yet you get some nice rewards for doing so, and if left alone it might trick someone else into letting it escape.
Talk to the eyebeast, get the reward from the mayor, go back and kill it, and get the reward for the eyestalk.
This has been asked and answered before; we're not talking about how to maximise your rewards. We're talking about the moral dilemma of killing it when you're under orders not to do so.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Ubbelubb
Apprentice
Member # 6913
 written Friday, March 17 2006 03:37 Profile #32
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

This has been asked and answered before; we're not talking about how to maximise your rewards. We're talking about the moral dilemma of killing it when you're under orders not to do so.[/QB]
But if you go back and talk with the mayor you'll get the answer that this evil (thus killable) monster is not needed anymore, or something like thatg. Sorry, I don't remeber the dialogue exactly.

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Segla i medvind
Posts: 8 | Registered: Wednesday, March 15 2006 08:00
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Friday, March 17 2006 04:19 Profile Homepage #33
quote:
Originally written by Ubbelubb:

But if you go back and talk with the mayor you'll get the answer that this evil (thus killable) monster is not needed anymore, or something like thatg. Sorry, I don't remeber the dialogue exactly.
I can tell you exactly what the mayor says about the eyebeast, directly from the scripts. None of it implies that he no longer needs it -- in fact, quite a bit of it implies just the opposite.

quote:
question = "I met the eyebeast. It was just trying to trick you. It doesn't
know anything.";
text1 = "He sighs. _That is not a surprise. It is a wily creature, full of
lies. But I had my hopes._";
text2 = "He gives you a small pouch of coins. _This is compensation for
your time. Please don't tell anyone about the prisoner. We prefer that the
locals don't know. Otherwise, they would likely kill it. Or get killed trying
to do so._";
See? Even after you tell him that the eyebeast doesn't know anything useful, he doesn't want the eyebeast killed.

quote:
question = "I met the eyebeast. I'm afraid that it's dead now.";
text1 = "The mayor's pleasant demeanor instantly disappears. _Oh, dear. I
entrusted our valued prisoner to a fool. That creature was a great aid in our
research, and you destroyed it. What a waste._";
text2 = "_Please leave me. This is just too ... irritating. But I blame
myself for trusting you._";
And he gets pretty annoyed if you kill it and tell him about it.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Randomizer
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
 written Friday, March 17 2006 04:39 Profile #34
Jeff makes the Cotra eyebeast such a nasty dilemma because the next chance to slay an eyebeast to fulfill Cecil's quest isn't until the Great Cave area. You really want to save money and get training in special skills since money is so tight in this game.

I also felt sad about killing Fort Dranlon's special prisioner until I realized how badly I needed the treasure it leaves behind to fulfill getting Demonslayer as a singleton. I'm still having trouble getting through that fight, but it seems to be my fault because I keep making mistakes in equipping my character and not bringing all the items I need to outlast the monsters (need more than one Invulnerability potion).
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Ubbelubb
Apprentice
Member # 6913
 written Friday, March 17 2006 05:22 Profile #35
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
question = "I met the eyebeast. It was just trying to trick you. It doesn't
know anything.";
text1 = "He sighs. _That is not a surprise. It is a wily creature, full of
lies. But I had my hopes._";
text2 = "He gives you a small pouch of coins. _This is compensation for
your time. Please don't tell anyone about the prisoner. We prefer that the
locals don't know. Otherwise, they would likely kill it. Or get killed trying
to do so._";
See? Even after you tell him that the eyebeast doesn't know anything useful, he doesn't want the eyebeast killed.
True, you're correct. I paid more attention to the first text. I considered the second was more consern about the villagers than the eyebeast.

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Segla i medvind
Posts: 8 | Registered: Wednesday, March 15 2006 08:00
Dallerdin with a custom moniker.
Shock Trooper
Member # 3898
 written Friday, March 17 2006 23:31 Profile #36
There's also this drake in the caves under Reptile Island. I didn't want to kill him, but there was no other way to get his treasure.

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~Note : The professional newbie's advice should not be taken seriously, or at all.~
LINKAGE
Posts: 364 | Registered: Saturday, January 17 2004 08:00
Randomizer
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
 written Saturday, March 18 2006 04:59 Profile #37
There is the drake quest for Fort Emerald. The dragon will leave, but by that time I've killed almost all her brood and it will return someday to feed. It becomes a question of whether it is morally justified to do preemtive strikes against future threats like Swamplouse, dragons, etc., or whether you should forego the experience and treasure.

Jeff makes attacking a more attractive choice by making nice treasure available if you do it. Swamplouse has Mecuric Leather Armor and a wisdom crystal.

Giscard's task to remove the gremlin nets 20% more expierence from killing it rather than giving it the wine. That was a lousy 3 ep for my singleton.

[ Saturday, March 18, 2006 16:59: Message edited by: Randomizer ]
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Aaron Kashtan
Warrior
Member # 1481
 written Friday, May 12 2006 08:45 Profile #38
Another interesting moral dilemma is the two mines south of Dharmon, Cicero's and Krytos's mines. In both of them, you have to kill the miners in order to get their treasure. If you kill Cicero and his friends, you discover that were justified in doing this, because they were bandits who murdered the people who had been using the mine before. But if you kill Krytos, there is no similar revelation; he and his friends were just ordinary miners.

By putting these two encounters in the same area, Jeff implies that if you kill Krytos, then you're committing exactly the same crime Cicero committed, and therefore you're just as bad as him. It's a pretty effective lesson.

(Of course, right after I finished this area, I went and killed Andreas so I could take his crystals, so apparently I didn't learn anything. But Andreas was being rude to me, so that made me feel slightly less guilty.)
Posts: 84 | Registered: Wednesday, July 10 2002 07:00
Dolphin
Shaper
Member # 5437
 written Friday, May 12 2006 10:45 Profile #39
quote:
Originally written by *i:

Unfortunately, you cannot kill the king. If you do, you sort of die instantly.
If you use "backtostart" right after killing the king before or after the message about attracting the guard's attention, but before the second round after having gotten the warning the game won't end. If you return to the castle, however, you'll get game over.
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
The Lurker
Shock Trooper
Member # 6821
 written Saturday, May 13 2006 00:26 Profile #40
1) Accepting Bragg's offer has no consequence whatsoever. You won't meet him in the Abyss. It's a bit like that Haakai/Stone Circle part in Avernum 3. If you choose to free the demons, it has no consequence.

2) I usually don't kill Krytos. I don't think his treasure is all that interesting anyway. Also, it does seem immoral.

3) I never felt that bad about Crain, perhaps because he's a real jerk. The "I flirted with their crazy daughter, who wouldn't" part especially made me want to kill him. Had it been a real life problem, I would of course have acted differently (I don't believe in killing unless it's really, really necessary), but I'll use that lame excuse : it's only a game, and death in Avernum doesn't seem to be as bad as real life death. Sigh.

4) At first, I felt really bad about the Infernal Shroud artifact quest. Killing the drake and the dragon's familiar just seemed wrong. On the other hand, the drake doesn't seem to mind being killed, and I think demons are just banished if they're 'killed' in the Avernum plane, so they don't really die (a proof : Grah-Hoth was killed in A1, yet he's behind the Tower of Magi attack in A3).

5) Grint was so funny I almost felt bad about killing him. Almost. :P
Posts: 363 | Registered: Wednesday, February 22 2006 08:00
Micawber
Agent
Member # 2759
 written Sunday, May 14 2006 01:08 Profile Homepage #41
What do people think about Athron's lair? Do you feel your conscience twinge when you kill the drake, loot the dragon's stuff and read her books?

[EDIT: Assuming that Athron is still a she in this particular game.]

[ Sunday, May 14, 2006 01:10: Message edited by: Micawber ]

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"I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius

Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00
Randomizer
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
 written Sunday, May 14 2006 17:51 Profile #42
Regarding Athron's lair, you give the dragon a chance to step aside and who cares about a demon. Besides there isn't much loot except for the Infernal Shroud. The books are still there for Athron.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Xyra
Apprentice
Member # 2463
 written Saturday, June 3 2006 18:09 Profile #43
I really wish Jeff would just go back to the whole "kill evil monsters and save the world" plotlines. I dont want to think about whether the slavering terrorbeast im currently trying to kill has a family. I just want the 300 gold and shirt of unrivaled magical power it happens to be standing on. Then if there are some eggsacks you torch them. I want to be a HERO(In the moral sense, not the job description).

[ Saturday, June 03, 2006 22:13: Message edited by: Xyra ]
Posts: 24 | Registered: Tuesday, January 7 2003 08:00
Dikiyoba
Councilor
Member # 6600
 written Saturday, June 3 2006 18:41 Profile Homepage #44
Then you shouldn't have a problem deciding how to handle all these moral dilemmas.

*Whack* *Hack* *Slash*

:P

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I don't think too deeply about these games. The fact that these creatures or people would be likely to attack and kill others (and that they immediately attack and attempt to kill my party) is enough justification for me to kill them without feeling guilty.

On the other hand, being asked to go kill something that is not hostile just because it is a "monster" or because it happens to be guarding some treasure isn't something that Dikiyoba likes.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
*i
The Establishment
Member # 6
 written Sunday, June 4 2006 13:36 Profile #45
quote:
Originally written by Xyra:

I really wish Jeff would just go back to the whole "kill evil monsters and save the world" plotlines. I dont want to think about whether the slavering terrorbeast im currently trying to kill has a family. I just want the 300 gold and shirt of unrivaled magical power it happens to be standing on. Then if there are some eggsacks you torch them. I want to be a HERO(In the moral sense, not the job description).
You're in the minority here. Also, don't dredge up dead topics. After a topic has been dead a few months and you want to add, just make a new one and link to the old one.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Laudimir
Apprentice
Member # 8684
 written Sunday, July 8 2007 18:53 Profile #46
While I could be wrong, I believe the topic was not even dead for 1/2 a month...
Posts: 13 | Registered: Thursday, May 10 2007 07:00
Randomizer
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
 written Sunday, July 8 2007 20:04 Profile #47
Don't revive a topic to make that kind of comment. Only do so when it concerns the topic's purpose.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Sunday, July 8 2007 20:27 Profile Homepage #48
The rule of thumb is closer to a week. As of last check, my impression was that topic revival was okay as long as you have something genuinely new and useful to add that justifies bringing back up the discussion. Xyra's was borderline. Laudimir's was bad (because it was useless).

I'm going to leave this open, on the off-chance that someone has something relevant to say about Athron's lair or something, but I recommend not posting in it unless you've really got something good.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

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Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00

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