A Recreation

AuthorTopic: A Recreation
Warrior
Member # 4987
Profile Homepage #0
I have decided to recreate Avernum. While I realize that this will be a tedious and slow task at best, I think it will be worthwhile. I am going to recreate it to an EXACT replica of Avernum 2. I plan on doing all the terrain, (no scripting or creatures or whatnot yet) and then distributing it for people to work with. I think that Avernum was an excellent setting, and would probably be appreciated (though not as much as I might hope) by all of you. If anyone would like to help (instead of telling me that it will eventually just sit on my desktop as you all seem fond of doing) then please, load avernum 2, go to the vahnatai lands, and make some exact replicas of the areas around and up to (insert name after tunnel here) I forgot the name, but the first vahnatai town you step into, (past the tunnel/river system). Anyone who feels they need to say something derogitory to my goal, please refrain from being a jerk.
Posts: 60 | Registered: Sunday, September 19 2004 07:00
Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
Profile Homepage #1
I am not saying this to be a jerk. I am saying this to save you a lot of time and effort.

Don't do this.

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Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram.

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Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Warrior
Member # 4987
Profile Homepage #2
Well, I guess I like wasting my time. If you can come up with a good reason beyond the normal petty bullshoot of "You'll never finish it." then please, let me know.
Posts: 60 | Registered: Sunday, September 19 2004 07:00
Agent
Member # 2820
Profile #3
OK then. You are going to try to recreate the setting of Avernum 2, a game with around 50 outdoor sections and more towns that most people can think up names for. The predecessor of this game took Jeff a very long time to make.

Some people have tried things similar to this, and have failed. They stop after a few sections and realize the amount of work that would've been required to perform the task wouldn't have been worthwhile because I suspect most people would only use a few percent of the whole project.

Good luck, and tell us when you're done with it.

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Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are.
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Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies!
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Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos.
Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00
The Establishment
Member # 6
Profile #4
Replicas have never been that useful in Blades of Exile and I can only assume it will be the same for Blades of Avernum. The problem with duplications is that they are a drain on creativity on both those who create them and use them. My main point being is that you should devote your energies to something that will be enjoyed by the community rather than buried as another worthless replica.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Warrior
Member # 4987
Profile Homepage #5
You make a persuasive argument, but I think I will still keep it as a side project. While it main drain some creativity, the entire basis of "Blades of Avernum" is the Avernum part. If someone has no creativity to start, then obviously they would be unable to make something good out of it. However when you have a landscape, and free reign beyond it, anyone who is actually skilled should be able to make something creative with minimal difficulty. I will continue this project when I feel tired of doing my actual scenario, and eventually, I will finish. I have pretty good determination, and as I said before, I realize that at BEST it will be tedious.
Posts: 60 | Registered: Sunday, September 19 2004 07:00
The Establishment
Member # 6
Profile #6
quote:
Originally written by Squirrel:

the entire basis of "Blades of Avernum" is the Avernum part.
I disagree with this 99%. Seven years has shown that the basis of "Blades of Exile" is NOT the Exile part. Take a look at some of the best scenarios in Blades. None of them take place in the standard regions we were introduced to. Heck, most of the really great ones aren't even in the Exile universe.

Is BoA fundamentally different? I would say no. It's just a name change, a few more graphics, and a more powerful engine. None of these three involve Avernum per se in any way shape or form.

I liken your project to one where we did free towns back in the old days of Blades of Exile. These were meant to be towns that could be inserted into a scenario and customized by the designer. Several were created, none were ever used. Good designers don't like to have their creativity stifled and not so good designers are not much different.

Smaller remakes have been tried and either failed or have disappeared because of disuse. The only difference in your project in that one is that yours is far more ambitious. I suspect its useage will be about the same.

I mean, I see your point, but going on history, it's just a vacuum for good talent and a lot of time. It may be really good, but no good scenario will ever really use it. Heck, I bet only a few mediocre scenarios will even venture to use it.

If history holds up, then I fear you are wasting your time at best, and depriving everyone of good scenarios at worst.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3022
Profile #7
Plus, I wonder if you are infringing Jeff's copyright.
Posts: 269 | Registered: Saturday, May 24 2003 07:00
Warrior
Member # 4230
Profile #8
I have just read this and I must say that I like the idea.

I believe the reason why so few scenerios for BoE took place in Exile is that very few people wanted to try and re-create the landscape because it really is massive.

Having said that, if you want to do this, and are as awair of the difficulties as you seem to be, I must say go for it. I know that I for one would use it.

My only question would be, how detailed do you plan on getting? Are you talking just a simply map of all of the areas, the main caves and the Van lands, or do you have even more ambitious plans? Do you plan on mapping out all of the towns, forts, and caves too? Or would you simply note their locations on the outdoor map?

I think of this idea like the setting books that you can buy for role-playing-games. One book with maps and information that is ready made for you to put your own ideas into. The docs for such a thing could be extensive though if you tried to include information about the various lands and important NPCs.

Another interesting idea might be a re-creation of the surface, if such a thing were possible, that would allow for people to make games that take place on empire lands.

Bottum line, if you want to make it then go for it. Just because other people don't like the idea doesn't mean that everyone doesn't. And even if nobody else used it, a thing that I persinally find unlickly since I know that I would at least, you still have it for yourself and can cut and paist what you need without re-creating everything.

I have often wanted to make a game about when Exile was just starting out, but have not done so because I couldn't get around the map problem. A untility like this would make that possible.

Edit: Also, a note about copyright. I believe that this is not only not breaking the copyrite, but that it is also part of the purpose of BoA. Jeff made this so that we all could continue the stories of E/A and in order to do that we would have to be able to use the official areas. Persinally, I think that Jeff should have included basic maps of Avernum and the surface with the games instead of the four starter scens, or maybe with them, since I would find such maps for more interesting and useful in the long run.

[ Tuesday, September 21, 2004 15:46: Message edited by: Bard of the Soul ]

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If Magic is your crutch, cast it off and walk without.
Diablo 1 Manual

Truth is good manners, manners are a fiction.
Mark Twain
Posts: 64 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Agent
Member # 2820
Profile #9
I suppose anybody who wants to have a scenario take place directly in Avernum could use your thing, but the flexibility would be hampered greatly. I for one would just look at a general map of Avernum and add my own twist to it.

But again, I'm sure SOMEONE will use a bit of it.

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Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are.
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Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies!
====
Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos.
Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #10
I have to say, making a duplicate of A1's Lost Bahssikava in the BoA editor was tremendously instructive about town design. I didn't really get the concept of correct placement of walls until I did that.

That said, re-creating one three-level dungeon is completely different from re-creating dozens of outdoor sections and towns. After a certain point, it could get extraordinarily tedious and probably would not be very useful to anyone.

But I definitely did find it helpful to re-make LB. Take that as you will.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Shaper
Member # 3442
Profile Homepage #11
This is almost definately doomed to fail. I can't even be bothered to make 10 outdoor sections, never mind 50. And we need scenarios people - not shells! Make scenarios!!!

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And when you want to Live
How do you start?
Where do you go?
Who do you need to know?


*Name by Slarty, so blame him if it's filthy...
Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 5046
Profile #12
i love this idea. i think i'd have great fun creating new plot lines in the old avernum.

i think of all the work involved in recreating it and it does sound like a lot of work to me. if i have time, i'd love to help.
Posts: 8 | Registered: Sunday, October 3 2004 07:00
Warrior
Member # 4987
Profile Homepage #13
Well so far there seem to be people who love it, and people who hate it. To everyone who hates it. You get NOTHING. And thats all I gotta say to you. I do not plan on doing ANY monster placement, or scripting, or anything of the sort. A shell it would be indeed. Terrain for people who want it. I takes me about 10-20 minutes to get terrain done for one area. Taking this into consideration, I work on my scenario about 2-4 hours a day when I have the time. To put in an extra 30 minutes a day would be simple, and chances are, it would not take me longer then a few months at worst. Yes (Yes the person) If you want to help, make southern Avernum. (The last row of outdoor sections from the tower of magi and over.) Keep in mind that I am doing a A2 based terrain and doing it right. There will of course be small changes but only out of necessity. (for example if it is impossible to make a terrain the same, you don't, you simply work around it.

EDIT: SupaNik, the only reason you can't make 10 outdoor sections is because you are lazy.

[ Sunday, October 03, 2004 16:57: Message edited by: You get NOTHING ]
Posts: 60 | Registered: Sunday, September 19 2004 07:00
Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
Profile Homepage #14
I am certain that, in spite of the polite admonitions of the best and brightest of the community, you will be able to complete this project anyway. I mean, what does more people and better people failing on a project half this scale and twice as useful as this mean to you? You're magic.

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The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest.
Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #15
I don't know that anyone here actually hates the idea. Some people just think it's a waste of your time. That's all. But hey, if you can pull it off, more power to you. It's just that many people have tried before, and none have ever been heard from again.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Agent
Member # 2820
Profile #16
Personally, I think we should all just let him do whatever he wants. If he manages to finish this project before JV releases his next game, I say we give this industrious designer a cookie.

Now is probably a good time to let this thread die, but I think it would be nice for you to keep a short web blog for all those interested in keeping up with the development of this shell updated.

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Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are.
====
Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies!
====
Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos.
Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00
Warrior
Member # 4987
Profile Homepage #17
I agree on letting this thread die, but before I do,
Fear and Uncertainty, yes you finally understand, I am magic.

[ Sunday, October 03, 2004 18:45: Message edited by: You get NOTHING ]
Posts: 60 | Registered: Sunday, September 19 2004 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3368
Profile #18
You could do just the vahnatai section.
I think that would be enough work for most folk.

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"Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending"
Posts: 287 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00
Shaper
Member # 3442
Profile Homepage #19
quote:
Originally written by You get NOTHING:

Well so far there seem to be people who love it, and people who hate it. To everyone who hates it. You get NOTHING. And thats all I gotta say to you. I do not plan on doing ANY monster placement, or scripting, or anything of the sort. A shell it would be indeed. Terrain for people who want it. I takes me about 10-20 minutes to get terrain done for one area. Taking this into consideration, I work on my scenario about 2-4 hours a day when I have the time. To put in an extra 30 minutes a day would be simple, and chances are, it would not take me longer then a few months at worst. Yes (Yes the person) If you want to help, make southern Avernum. (The last row of outdoor sections from the tower of magi and over.) Keep in mind that I am doing a A2 based terrain and doing it right. There will of course be small changes but only out of necessity. (for example if it is impossible to make a terrain the same, you don't, you simply work around it.

EDIT: SupaNik, the only reason you can't make 10 outdoor sections is because you are lazy.

Sorry, but I couldn't let this die without saying something. You'll see how lazy I am when I release "The Demon Stone".

-- Random Fact Number 1 - "Thirty Helen's agree - Honesty is the best policy"

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And when you want to Live
How do you start?
Where do you go?
Who do you need to know?


*Name by Slarty, so blame him if it's filthy...
Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3368
Profile #20
Even if you do make all of Avernum, only little bits of it would be used. Making a scenario that utilizes such a HUGE area would be ridiculously time consuming.

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"Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending"
Posts: 287 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00
Warrior
Member # 4987
Profile Homepage #21
Bobo, let it die. This thread is pointless
Posts: 60 | Registered: Sunday, September 19 2004 07:00