A3: Poor mages!
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Apprentice
Member # 7037
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written Saturday, April 15 2006 10:25
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Is it me, or do mages really get the short end of the stick compared to priests? No one denies the immense usefulness of Ice Lances early on, nor, say, Haste, Slow, or Dispel Barrier at any point in the game. But it seems to me that in the late game, mages start to really be shown up by priests. In Avernum 2, I recall realizing that Arcane Blow was barely an improvement over Fireblast, even though it cost an extra five spell points. Both did mediocre damage. Meanwhile, my priest could just cast Divine Warrior on my fighter once, and together they'd mow down hordes of Elite Warriors and Golems without even breaking a sweat. Not to mention Divine Restoration. And with Divine Fire, which, I believe, both required a lower skill level and cost less spell points than Fireblast, my priest could beat my mage at his own game. Now, in Avernum 3, Divine Warrior is gone, probably because it was too overpowered. (Arcane Shield has likewise been watered down, though. It only grants invulnerability at level 3 now.) In its place is Divine Retribution, which does a great deal of damage and enfeebles to boot. Arcane Blow is significantly better than Fireblast, but, well… I looked at the formulae for calculating spell damage in the manual, and they didn't seem easily comparable, so, compulsive mathematician that I am, I drew a graph! It uses the third-level version of each spell.  (And before anybody asks, yes, I have no life.) As you can see, Divine Retribution is generally better than Arcane Blow, and Lightning Spray is generally better than Fireblast. This changes only at very high levels, when the caster has a spell bonus of 45 or more. I doubt that anyone will get that skilled during the course of an ordinary game. And let's not forget that the skill for priest spells costs less than that for mage spells. And you can cast priest spells while wearing armor. Conclusion: It's unbalanced. Damage-dealing mage spells should do more damage and cost less spell points. Mages are supposed to be the real damage-dealers, after all. Posts: 3 | Registered: Saturday, April 15 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5969
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written Saturday, April 15 2006 11:17
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Totally. What's the point of the Anama Church running around saying "Mage spells are so destructive! Let's stop using them!" if priest spells actually do more damage? :mad: Now, Exile 1… the main point of priests was to bless, heal, and cure stuff, while the mages unleashed fireballs and such. Ahhh… all was as it should be. ^_^ Poor mages, indeed. Spiffy graph. [ Saturday, April 15, 2006 11:17: Message edited by: Erika Maroonmark ] -------------------- A C, an E-flat, and a G walk into the Tower of the Magi. Ambrin walks up to them and says, "Hey! It's the Triad!" Kelner snorts and says, "Pretty minor Triad if you ask me." Posts: 242 | Registered: Thursday, June 16 2005 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4506
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written Saturday, April 15 2006 11:35
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Well, I think that you'll find that Priest spells (at least in my experience) do more damage to certain types of creatures, but overall are less effective than Mage spells. Mage spells overall do higher damage than Priest spells, except when you have a monster which the priest spells are effetive against. What I'm trying to say is: Most Mage spells are affective against most things, but Priest spells do more damage to certain monsters. Ofcourse, this is judging from personal experience, and I'm sure there will be other views on this. And to talk about the Anama, they were brilliant in Exile 3, since you could get Divine Thud. Now I never go for them in Avernum 3, as you need both Mage and Priest spells. - Archmagus Micael -------------------- "You dare Trifle with Avernum?" ~ Erika the Archmage -------------------- My Scenarios: Undead Valley : A small Undead problem, what could possibly go wrong? -------------------- Richard Black - PROOF of his existance (the Infernal one's website). -------------------- MY FORUM! Randomosity at it's highest! :) Posts: 1370 | Registered: Thursday, June 10 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6489
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written Saturday, April 15 2006 18:56
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quote:There was actually a spell called Divine [b]THUD[/b]?! -------------------- "You're drinking liquor because you're thirsty? How nasty is your freaking water?" —Lazarus Spiderweb Chat Room Avernum RP • Summaries • OoC • Roster Shadow Vale - My site, home of the Spiderweb Chat Database, BoA Scenario Database, & the A1 Quest List, among other things. Posts: 1556 | Registered: Sunday, November 20 2005 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Saturday, April 15 2006 19:58
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Yes. Hence, play BoE. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6977
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written Saturday, April 15 2006 21:09
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I've never noticed this in Avernum 3, possibly because my priest was a warrior-priest and not quite as skillful or intelligent as my mage -- who also had the Natural Mage trait, which may have contributed to the discrepancy. In BoA, though, I haven't really been using my mage at all. My archer has been the most useful character, followed by my priest, followed by my warrior; the mage is right there at the bottom. Ice Lances and Lightning Spray cost more than in Avernum 3, and although they are useful, most of the time I can't see enough enemies to justify the cost of using them, or else my archer and fighter have already slaughtered everything. (There's no use reducing the enemies to 1/2 or 1/4 life with Ice Lances or Lightning Spray when the fighter and archer are going to mow them down in one hit at full health anyway.) In A3, though, I found the mage to be extremely useful, laying waste to the battlefield -- especially in battles with a bunch of lower level critters. [ Saturday, April 15, 2006 21:10: Message edited by: Old Scratch ] -------------------- Man may have been made in the image of God, but human society was made in the image of His opposite number, and is always trying to get back home. Posts: 66 | Registered: Thursday, March 30 2006 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4506
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written Sunday, April 16 2006 03:07
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quote:My personal favourite spell in Exile 3 and BoA. Amazing fun. Firestorm area effect, but I think it was wound damage. And LOTS of it. - Archmagus Micael [ Sunday, April 16, 2006 03:08: Message edited by: Archmagus Micael ] -------------------- "You dare Trifle with Avernum?" ~ Erika the Archmage -------------------- My Scenarios: Undead Valley : A small Undead problem, what could possibly go wrong? -------------------- Richard Black - PROOF of his existance (the Infernal one's website). -------------------- MY FORUM! Randomosity at it's highest! :) Posts: 1370 | Registered: Thursday, June 10 2004 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Sunday, April 16 2006 04:20
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It was regular Magic damage and it had a cool sound effect. My personal favorite spell from the Anama was Avatar, though. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7037
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written Sunday, April 16 2006 07:36
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quote:It's true that Repel Spirit is better than any mage spell when it comes to undead and demons. Otherwise, I've never used Divine Retribution, but my guess is it does non-elemental damage. If that's the case, it's probably quite effective against the vast majority of enemies, just like Arcane Blow. quote:Wow, really? I had an archer in my Avernum 2 party, and he was far and away the least useful of the four. Good projectiles were heavy, not always abundant, and did less damage than both my fighter's melee attacks and my mage's Bolt of Fire. Perhaps I was doing something wrong, or perhaps (cross)bows got powered up for Blades. Posts: 3 | Registered: Saturday, April 15 2006 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Sunday, April 16 2006 09:25
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People design combat differently in Blades than Jeff did in the AT. I never used an archer in the AT, but I've used one often in BoA, because people are trying to make combat harder, and one way to do that is to eliminate melee by putting a character farther away. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6977
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written Sunday, April 16 2006 13:42
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quote:I didn't find my archer very useful in Avernum 3, either, but Blades is low on random encounters (where you fight in a totally open field) and high on isolated enemies who are all pretty far away from you. By keeping my archer's skill fairly high, his arrows did about as much damage as my fighter's melee attacks, and a LOT more damage than Skill 3 Firebolt with well-developed Intelligence and Mage Spells, plus Natural Mage. In fact, in the cave where you have to fight through all the ice-breathing lizards (which all appeared a dozen spaces away from the party, it seemed) to reach the drake at the end, I found my archer utterly indispensable. My fighter and mage were totally worthless for most of that dungeon; the fighter couldn't get there in time, and the mage couldn't do enough damage. -------------------- Man may have been made in the image of God, but human society was made in the image of His opposite number, and is always trying to get back home. Posts: 66 | Registered: Thursday, March 30 2006 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Sunday, April 16 2006 13:58
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I never found Divine Retribution to be all that great... outside of A4, that is. In fact, in A3 tons of monsters are just resistant to it (either the enfeebling fails or it just doesn't affect that creature type). That, and the damage is simply inadequate when compared to Fireblast. That, and Fireblast is just more fun. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6977
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written Sunday, April 16 2006 15:11
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quote:Yeah, I never use status effect spells (aside from Slow) for that very reason. In fact, that's a big problem with a lot of roleplaying games, not just Avernum: It's far more efficient to cast purely damage-dealing spells, because the enemies resist the effects of status effect spells often enough that casting them is a waste of time and spell energy -- plus it takes longer to finish the fight. And the one type of enemy that status effect spells are great to use on -- bosses -- tend to be resistant to them. Like Spray Acid. Who uses that? Even at a high skill, it hardly does any damage at all. It's always more efficient to cast a Firebolt or some other attack spell, because if you just cast Spray Acid and wait for a critter to die, chances are you're going to be waiting a long time. And when you do kill him, usually you could have killed him without Spray Acid's help anyway. If Spray Acid were as strong as the Fetid Zombie acid in A3, doing 3/4 of the damage of a Firebolt on the first turn and continuing from there, it'd be good. I don't even know why Jeff continues to include it in Avernum. [ Sunday, April 16, 2006 15:12: Message edited by: Old Scratch ] -------------------- Man may have been made in the image of God, but human society was made in the image of His opposite number, and is always trying to get back home. Posts: 66 | Registered: Thursday, March 30 2006 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Sunday, April 16 2006 15:22
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quote:I miss the Exile spells... and I've never even played the game. Acid Spray seems to be a holdover from a period when SW games had that wider array of spells, which could do more interesting things. If I understand things correctly, status spells were better. But if nothing else, they add a role-playing element to the games, which the games kind of need. (That said, I'm pleased with how A4 dealt with status spells. You want a powerful Acid Spray? Play A4.) -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6193
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written Sunday, April 16 2006 18:29
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quote:Very much better. Killer poison was one of my favorite boss killing methods, and I almost turned the game off when I saw it wasn't in Avernum. Plus Exile had sleep clouds, antimagic fields, and curse clouds, just to name a few off the top of my head. -------------------- Guaranteed to blow your mind. Frostbite: Get It While It's...... Hot? Posts: 900 | Registered: Monday, August 8 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Sunday, April 16 2006 18:46
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The Exile Mage spells were much better than the equivalent Avernum spells. It took to A4 before area effects spells returned instead of targeting for multiple creatures. So black shades and guardians could only really be hit by weapons. Cloud of blades was a weak area spell that still needed to be targeted on a PC or summoned creature. The strongest Exile mage spell shockwave has no Avernum equivalent except for Divine Retribution for priests. I used to use 4 castings of shockwave to obliterate almost everything on the screen. Mage spells are best at low levels until you can get the high level priest spells. I used to use a bug that wound spell worked against magic resistant monsters like Rakshashas. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6912
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written Monday, April 17 2006 20:46
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In A3 all 4 people in my party could cast ice lances and what that did was amazing for the game. I could destroy a pack of alien biests with out trying. I dont think any two priest spells combined will equal to what ice lances can do for you. Haste and Arcane shield put mages ahead of prists. In BOA one arcane summon (at high level) could beat the toughest fights!!! priests little shades are great support but they usialy cant make it in huge fights. [ Monday, April 17, 2006 20:49: Message edited by: rantalot ] Posts: 89 | Registered: Wednesday, March 15 2006 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4506
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written Tuesday, April 18 2006 03:49
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quote:Try Undead Valley (2.0), and you'll see that Priests can definitely be needed. I've had people complaining that high-level parties find it hard. You get hurt so much you HAVE to have lots of priests, especially as priests do most damage to undead. - Archmagus Micael [ Tuesday, April 18, 2006 03:50: Message edited by: Archmagus Micael ] -------------------- "You dare Trifle with Avernum?" ~ Erika the Archmage -------------------- My Scenarios: Undead Valley : A small Undead problem, what could possibly go wrong? -------------------- Richard Black - PROOF of his existance (the Infernal one's website). -------------------- MY FORUM! Randomosity at it's highest! :) Posts: 1370 | Registered: Thursday, June 10 2004 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 6821
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written Tuesday, April 18 2006 07:36
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quote:Gee, I actually thought Spray Acid to be quite useful in Avernum 3 against some tough enemies. Especially if you want to try to kill Erika, just for fun. :D (Spray Acid works very well against her) Also, Spray Acid is the spell against undead in A4. [ Tuesday, April 18, 2006 07:39: Message edited by: The Lurker ] Posts: 363 | Registered: Wednesday, February 22 2006 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Tuesday, April 18 2006 09:12
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quote:You know, I could very, very, very easily go on a rant here, but I won't. Just kidding. Undead Valley is painfully unbalanced from the start. Fireblast still does just as much damage to undead, and usually more once you've got a half-competent mage in your party. Besides, once you get jaded on the hordes upon hordes of undead, Fireblast is just so much more satisfying. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4506
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written Tuesday, April 18 2006 12:35
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quote:I could also go on a rant about it - and I made it! Fireblast is the one I use the most against most of the Undead, except for the Ruby Skeletons ofcourse, where Priest Spells are really the only spells that can "zap" them. - Archmagus Micael -------------------- "You dare Trifle with Avernum?" ~ Erika the Archmage -------------------- My Scenarios: Undead Valley : A small Undead problem, what could possibly go wrong? -------------------- Richard Black - PROOF of his existance (the Infernal one's website). -------------------- MY FORUM! Randomosity at it's highest! :) Posts: 1370 | Registered: Thursday, June 10 2004 07:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Tuesday, April 18 2006 13:04
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About useless spells, Blades designers are pretty good at setting up situations in which you have to rely on such spells. In various BoE scenarios I've had to use obscure spells like Web and Poison to get through some encounters. And I also prefer the variety of spells in Exile. (Antimagic Cloud, damage fields, "bolt", "arrows" and "ball" type spells, barriers, mindduel, etc.) -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5969
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written Tuesday, April 18 2006 17:07
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quote:*gasp* Kill Erika?! Who would do that? *sob* ;) My one problem with the Exile spells, compared to Avernum, is Fireball. Its counterpart, Ice Lances, is way better (it has multiple targets, which is why they're both good, but Ice Lances is also useful when you're fighting an army of fire lizards; also, you can pick the targets to avoid hitting your party members). -------------------- A C, an E-flat, and a G walk into the Tower of the Magi. Ambrin walks up to them and says, "Hey! It's the Triad!" Kelner snorts and says, "Pretty minor Triad if you ask me." Posts: 242 | Registered: Thursday, June 16 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Tuesday, April 18 2006 18:00
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Blasting party members is just something that fighters have to suffer with when they engage monsters. I always try to save a healing spell for that little problem. Avernum 4 took care of friendly fire. But I still like area effects like fireball for clearing out monsters that are hiding around corners and out of line of sight. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6912
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written Tuesday, April 18 2006 20:28
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quote:i did play it, but by that time my mage was pretty much a mage/priest (and i had a priest :) ) so i didnt see the problem (exept for the INSANE ruby skeletons) I see your point, but you can always design a situation where the inferior fares better what i was saying is that mage spells are better rounded and can get you throught more things than priest spells. My main party (which i pretty much always use) does have a lot of healing objects (eyes of khoth & tons of elixers) maybe thats why i never really find priest spells that useful. Useful priest spells: heal, healgroup, dispell undead. Useful mage spells: dispell barier, haste, fireblast, ice lances, arcane summon, arcane shield (i am not sure about arcane blow) dont get all of this wrong i havent had a party with out a prist, but if i HAD to choose i would go with a mage. Posts: 89 | Registered: Wednesday, March 15 2006 08:00 |
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