Weapons and Warfare in Avernum.
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| Author | Topic: Weapons and Warfare in Avernum. |
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Agent
Member # 2210
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written Wednesday, February 16 2005 16:45
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Here are some thoughts on Weapons and Warfare in Avernum: 1) It appears the Sliths are the first to use cavalry in Avernum-- lizard riders. (Lost Bahssikava). This should give them an advantage in future wars-- the ability to move quickly and transport goods before the Avernites. 2) Magic Lasers are starting to be used as fixed defenses. (Canopy). There however are no large mobile weapons other than golems-- I would categorize them as remote control tanks. Factories are being made recently to produce divisions of golems. 3) Wands are starting to be used and passed out as weapons in bunches. The ending of the (Za- Khazi Run.) They may be a transitional weapon from crossbows to wands. I think of this as a transition from 15th century our time to 16th century our time when gunpowder started to be used on a large scale. 4) The standard weapon is still the sword. However, heavier hand weapons are starting to appear-- steel greatswords, battleaxes, claymores, the Vahnati waveblade is starting to spread outside of Vahnati lands. The slith spear is becoming more prevalent and more magical. Halberds are also appearing in slith hands. 5) Armor is starting to become a bit more sophisticated. (Backwater Calls)-- Steel plated helm, electrocution platemail. Ironclad bangle (Canopy), Magical Greaves (Canopy). These are some thoughts. I also have a wish list of weapons and armor I would like to see in Avernum. 1) Blunt weapons-- flail, spiked mace, maul. 2) Swords and daggers-- katana, dao, parrying dagger. 3) Helms-- Samurai Helmet, Plumed helm, Kettle hat, crusader helm. 4) Armor- Samurai armor. 5) Unusual weapons-- Bangi knife, Punch dagger-- I think this would be a Nephilim weapon. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Wednesday, February 16 2005 19:00
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(The Ironclad Bangle is from EM.) -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, February 16 2005 19:50
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The only sliths who have Lizard Riders in Bahssikava are in Kass's story of the homeland, which may or may not be true (remember that he was just telling a story that had been passed down to him) and certainly describes a situation and technology level different from that of any sliths in Avernum. The sliths of the Second Slith War in ZKR presumably do not use lizards as mounts, although I think humans have been using them like horses for chariots since A1 or A2. I could've sworn I saw that. They weren't war-chariots, but one can imagine that that's only a few more years off. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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For Carnage, Apply Within
Member # 95
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written Wednesday, February 16 2005 23:57
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Lizards seem like poor animals for use in battle. They're slow, they're hard to control, and they wouldn't give much of a height advantage to anyone riding them. The indication in A1 is that lizards are dangerous and disobedient even when doing something as simple as pulling carts; ride that into battle, and it'll be at least as dangerous to you as the enemy is. (As for lizards pulling chariots in A1, I'm pretty sure I never saw that. Are you sure you aren't just thinking of merchants' carts?) As for horses, adapting a horse from farm labor or normal riding to warfare is harder than you might think. Horses have to be bred for srength before they can support an armored fighter, and there's no sign that anybody has invented stirrups, which are pretty much necessary for cavalry to use lances. Without lances, cavalry is easily countered by pikemen, archers, or both in combination. It's only good use is for guerilla warfare or for scouting. Horse-drawn chariots are expensive and only effective when used en masse; combine that with Avernum's hostility to most surface animals, and it seems that the Empire is the only power that could make effective use of chariots. As most of the Empire's surface enemies are guerillas, not standing armies, it stands to reason that the Empire has little reason to use chariots. Mounted infantry, which would ride to the battlefield and dismount to fight, might still be practical, but Avernum and the Empire seem to prefer teleportation for rapid troop movements. The Empire has had horses few centuries, and the nature of warfare has not changed in some time. It seems to me that, if cavalry had any real military potential in the world of Avernum, it would have come into use long ago. But then again, the Romans thought the same thing. :P -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: More fun than a kick in the shins! Posts: 567 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, February 17 2005 06:05
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I was thinking of the merchant carts, yes, and I couldn't come up with the right word. They were being used in a way that resembled horses, and while they weren't being used for warfare, well, I imagine that it could be done. Yes, it would be hard. I think that breeding the lizards for strength and obedience might lead some interesting results — the ill-behaved lizards in A1 might sometime after A3 turn into warhorses. Or maybe not. I don't really know anything about this. :P -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2210
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written Thursday, February 17 2005 06:44
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I think the lizards were used to pull the merchants carts. It would be neat to see a slithy or avernite war chariot. Oh well. There are no elephants in Avernum. Mutant lizards are quick, big, and nasty. I was really hoping that there would be an armored slith on an armored giant mutant lizard. It might not be practical, but it would be cool. Think really big lizard. Elephants would be about as dangerous as a giant mutant lizard. You could even have a lizard goad. I know there is a graphic for a drake rider as well. Maybe you could use them as mounts to fly around like the orb of thralni. Again a wonderfully impractical idea. I do not think there would be catapults, ballistae or similar items; these would be replaced by magically destructive items. This is fantasy. Almost anything is possible. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 1425
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written Thursday, February 17 2005 09:59
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Augmente Giants are most likely used by the Empire instead of catapults. Posts: 190 | Registered: Wednesday, July 3 2002 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Thursday, February 17 2005 13:09
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Lizards as mounts, seems a bit odd. How big are they? Seriously you really cant get a good picture of their height from the game graphics. They at least need to be a meter tall to even think about riding unless the sliths are all tiny, which they aren't. -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2210
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written Friday, February 18 2005 01:53
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To pull a cart effectively, and be ridable, I am guessing that a giant lizard is about the same size as a small ox 4-5 feet tall. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2210
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written Friday, February 18 2005 08:52
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I know I am double posting. The armor set is almost complete for a heavily armored knight. 1) Helm, Platemail, Greaves, Gauntlets, Boots, and Shield. There is only one piece missing-- the aventail-- armored neckguard. 2) Could someone add a body shield or a tower shield as a graphic. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5498
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written Friday, February 18 2005 10:54
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an interestign trap, though time-consuming to make, would be a modification of old trap pits, with teleporters at the bottom that send you and extra, say, ten feet lower, into solid rock. Or maybe sends you into some region overrun with demons. And how big are Critachs? if they are large enough, could you charm/train them to be used as an animal force(by modifying them and putting daggerlike claws or whatnot into their legs)? The US Army did this with dogs in WW2 for a while, but I don't think they ever saw any real combat use. Animal Cruelty and all that. -------------------- He who giggles for joy everytime he hears the talking skulls voice. Posts: 31 | Registered: Sunday, February 13 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3610
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written Friday, February 18 2005 16:12
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The more interesting question, in my oppinion, is: "In a land of magic, what use is most of the advances we recognize from military history?" Let's start with something as simple as the wall. What use are walls when you can teleport through them, or fly over them. Further, fireballs are certainly high-velocity, flat tractory projectiles, and probably roughly analogous to a modern HEAT (high-explosive anti-tank) shell. If a HEAT shell can do a few meters of RHA (rolled, homollogous armour), then it can certainly take care of a stone wall. Further, you can hit on target every time. The waning of keep-style fortifications and the rise of star-fort-style fortifications was caused not by the destructive force of cannons, but by their accuracy. As an on-topic asside, most of your weapons exist, since they are realy only cosmetic variations on existing weapons. Katanas are little more then single-bladed hand-and-a-half swords, etc. Posts: 129 | Registered: Tuesday, October 28 2003 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3605
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written Friday, February 18 2005 16:23
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I would think that most defensive technology would be much the same. A wall is easy to build, and even if a mage or priest can go right through it, a defender is catering mostly for the grunt. Remember that most of the people attacking you are just sword swingers, not arch-mages. And if we take the effect of say, a bolt of fire, we can see that it would take more than the average mages power to knock down a proper wall. Added to this is the probability that you have your own mages. Any spell they can do, you can undo. A few spells here and there when your building the thing might solve your mage related problems. And why rely on the rare and expensive mages, when the grunts can just be trained to build a catapult that does the same, or a better (in most cases), job. -------------------- "But The Damage is Irreversible" Posts: 358 | Registered: Monday, October 27 2003 08:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Friday, February 18 2005 17:05
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Remember the axiom of warfare: for every attack there exists a defense, even if using one or both would be foolhardy unto death. The second most important thing to remember is this: it takes an innovator to come up with the defense before the attack. That requires new attacks, not evolutions of old ones -- and that's where your revolutions and breakthroughs kick in. To analyze Avernum in technological terms, we must first look at social attitudes and trends, moving backwards. Witness this: there is no heavy, non-craftsman-based industry. The concept of mass production hasn't hit its stride yet (outside of Canopy, and you'll forgive me for calling TM's works a tad idiomatically inconsistent). So the socio-technological level is pre-industrial. One bellwether of industrialization is the presence of a lot of early water-powered mills, including the most simple -- textiles and lumber. Other manufactories of the early industrialization period just represented economies of scale, as can be seen in the various pseudo-factories found in the Avernums: a bunch of smelters, a bunch of ironworkers, a bunch of mages, not one smelter/ironworker/mage working a bunch of machines. In summary: no mechanical production. Why? The means certainly exist. The reason is that there's no ignoble elite class yet. Look for corporations or even immoderately successful businesses and you will come up disappointed. The stock market does not exist, nor do even the most basic securities companies. (The lack of moneychanging does explain why there's no banks, and may well never be.) So the impeti for industrialization do not exist, either. In summary: the bourgeoisie is dormant, Dark Ages-style; as there are no clergy and existing clerics seem to be, themselves, members of the bourgeoisie, it can be said that the aristocracy holds the entire system in thrall. Makes enough sense, even if it requires a bit of suspension of disbelief to imagine an Imperial gene pool wide enough to allow for nepotism on every important level of a government spanning the globe. No significant aristocrats seem to be interested in the natural sciences, since the Emperor and cronies do not rule by the Divine Right and as such cannot be held accountable by any Almighty. In summary: there is no organized, proselytizing religion leading the Empire, stymying the building blocks for a modern society. Since the idea of understanding the universe is silly -- after all, there is no heavenly creature proclaiming all of its mysteries to the average aristocrat and the above-average aristocrat is impossible to disabuse of the notion that he is the center of the universe anyway. The mages who once practiced have for some time been suppressed, and 'research' on an official level does not seem to be condoned by any society. The goal is not blue-sky research but perfection of existing methods. Only one known character can be accurately described as a blue-sky-style researcher; the rest are just reinventing the wheel. In summary: the bulk of human progress is upon X's capable shoulders; as he is stark raving mad, it is likely the world of Ermarian will remain in essential technological stasis until the Emperor finds God and everything goes to pot. How does this apply to military tech? Simply enough, you aren't going to see anything revolutionary. Part of the modern attitude towards warfare came from modern social and natural sciences, which allowed a greater population, mechanical production, and an objective view of the universe, all of which contributed heavily to the revolution in thought as a whole, which allowed the adoption of weapons and tactics as we know them. In summary: Isolated innovations will happen, and you might by accident get something completely different every once in a great while, but its use will probably remain local or die off, and until some kind of religious revival hits you're going to be looking at new versions of the same weapons and tactics they've been using since anyone can remember. That's about it. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Friday, February 18 2005 18:01
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Alec- Canopy doesn't really apply to a real-life situation very well. (Although I suppose you haven't beaten it proper, so...) -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3605
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written Friday, February 18 2005 18:01
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So no guns? -------------------- "But The Damage is Irreversible" Posts: 358 | Registered: Monday, October 27 2003 08:00 |
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For Carnage, Apply Within
Member # 95
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written Friday, February 18 2005 18:37
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Even if, somehow, guns were invented right after A3 ended, it would probably take generations of work to make them more dangerous than bows and arrows. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: More fun than a kick in the shins! Posts: 567 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2210
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written Saturday, February 19 2005 00:57
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Hmm. Let me see. There are factories in avernum. Factories exist to mass produce monsters for the most part. The golem factory in Avernum 3 is one, the mass production of undead in Dealing With the Dead-- spawning pits, later in Lost Bahssikava we have an undead factory combined with a golem production factory. Thus factories are mainly used for magical warfare. I think mass production, science, and engineering is tightly guarded and controlled by the mage class. Thus only wizard type items are mass produced or engineered-- potions, scrolls, books, wizard towers, etc. If it is advantageous for mages to release technology, they will. I do not know if there are construction and mining golems in Avernum. There are in Geneforge, but that may be different. There are other indications of mass production for certain items. We have a daily newspaper and huge amounts of books. The alchemical shops are fairly complicated, about the equivalent of a 18th century pharmacy with all the equipment involved. The potions are all standardized. I am not sure that there is no mobility. I think there are three paths of mobility in Avernum. There is a huge self perpetuating bureaucracy in the imperium-- although it is never said-- I think you get into the bureaucracy by taking a civil service test. Thus, low level bureaucrats are not necessarily noble. However, although it is never stated-- I think bureaucracy is a dangerous and wiley profession in Avernum-- people assassinate each other to move up in rank. You have to employ thugs to collect taxes, etc. To get into magery school or alchemy school, you pay the entrance fee, I do not think mages have to be noble. Something which is interesting is that engineering is also taught in the magical towers of learning. There is a constant need for soldiers -- I think you can rise through the ranks as a soldier. These paths are pretty well set, however and may be the only way up. They would be really really dangerous professions. The top does not change that often for nobility unless you become the top person in one of the three paths. The various churches are also pretty open ended as to how they recruit people. Back to the idea of monsters and constructs. I think catapults and ballistae are replaced with golems and altered beasts. Yes, the empire does magically alter and enslave monsters for their own use. We have the laboratories where mutant giants are produced to fight in the war in Avernum. For some reason-- wizardly magic seems to cook the brains of many wizards making them into either crazy summoners-- or monster makers. Thus the rise of the Anama. I think there are two classes of altered monster most of the time. Mutant-- some kind of mutagenic agent was used on the monsters, or they come from a harsh environment. Mutant lizard, mutant giant. Altered-- the monster was reconstructed in a magical laboratory maing it tougher. Altered basilisk, etc. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, February 19 2005 02:04
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I have to agree with Toast's "bureaucratic feudalism" take on the Empire, at least to some degree. It's the only feasible way an organisation that big could be run; there's plenty of evidence that Prazac doesn't have the kind of power needed to control the fine workings of the entire Empire, and as Alec says, having everything controlled by hereditary nobility would require one hell of a big royal family. (And let's face it, before paternity testing, every man and his dog could and did call himself the rightful heir to a throne anyway.) -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3513
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written Thursday, February 24 2005 19:00
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Null Bugs in cages on the top of the walls would take care of the disadvantage against mages/priests. I wonder why nobody has implemented this. -------------------- Nobody appreciates me. It's all "Igor! Fetch some wine!" "Igor! Clean up this experiment!" or "Igor! Bury this in the garden, we're leaving town in 10 minutes!" —Alorael, who tried to become a deivore once. The priest gave him a funny look after the third wafer. Posts: 301 | Registered: Thursday, October 2 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 148
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written Thursday, February 24 2005 20:32
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First you have to capture, care for, and likely breed the null bugs. Who will do it? -------------------- My ego is bigger than yours. Posts: 480 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 2627
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written Friday, February 25 2005 13:52
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quote:I would assume then it's impossible to summon Null bugs? Actually an interesting point is what would happen if you tried to summon a null bug, hmmm. -------------------- formally Brenitt-Ihrno I'm a very irregular poster, don't mind me. Join me, people NFC FOREVER!!! Posts: 81 | Registered: Wednesday, February 12 2003 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 148
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written Friday, February 25 2005 14:40
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A null bug is not immune to magic, but rather it creates a field that magic is inoperable in. If a Null Bug is NOT in such a field, then magic is effective. -------------------- My ego is bigger than yours. Posts: 480 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, February 25 2005 17:29
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That was true elsewhere, but not really in BoA. Outside an anti-magic field, a Null Bug is vulnerable to any acid or poison spells and to Simulacrum. That's about it. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2210
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written Friday, February 25 2005 18:30
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If I remember correctly, the friendly spiders took gnat eggs from you as part of a quest. Some of the giant gnats had antimagic fields. I can imagine either the friendly spiders, or possibly to make it interesting Aranea would capture and train chitrach and null bugs to guard their nests. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
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