No Taxes!
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Wednesday, April 30 2003 01:30
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Capitalization counts as grammar too, David. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Vahnatai Did Do It desperance.net - We're Everywhere The Arena - God Will Sort The Dead ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 1817
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written Wednesday, April 30 2003 01:39
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Ikari: Is Daedalus/Icarus/Helios the equivalent of your "Mother Brain"? (Deus Ex) Also, if the AI was advanced enough, why vote? Let it run everything. Taxation is necessary for cities to function in the way that they are set up at this time. If you do not beleive me, go play simcity and set your tax level for 0%. Watch as things like your roads, water works, crime, pollution, electricity, and natural problems go out of control. This is a simple and effective demonstration of why we need taxes in our present system. My objection to taxes is only when the people that are spending the tax money are hapless idiots who waste the money they are entrusted with. [ Wednesday, April 30, 2003 01:40: Message edited by: Thanatos Starfyre ] -------------------- Quote of the Day "You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, The Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the US of arrogance, and Germany doesn't want to go to war." Posts: 560 | Registered: Saturday, August 31 2002 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Wednesday, April 30 2003 01:41
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And "Uthopia" is spelled 'Utopia', at least if it's Thomas Moore's one. I'm not really for it, but what surprises me is that no one is so far arguing the free market somehow provides a better mechanism than government tax 'n' spend. Once upon a time, the roads, hospitals and what-have-you were all private and it looks like the majority will be again at this rate. Taxation is paternalistic--it works on the assumption someone other than you knows how best to spend your money to the benefit of the broader community--which is why I guess the anarchists are against it. Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2669
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written Wednesday, April 30 2003 09:27
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But if left in private hands, public utilities, hospitals, etc, will inevitably lead to profiteering, uneven (at best) standards, etc. I'm all for utopian societies, but unfortunately they will always remain that, utopian. We can sit here and hope that people will some magical day all be enlightened, but I have my doubts. It is possible to form communities that work together in harmony, without a central power, but these are always restricted to a small amount of people, all of which are there by consent. I can never see this happening on a national level, unless your country is Liechtenstein or Andorra. -------------------- ... Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 1817
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written Wednesday, April 30 2003 11:38
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Do also remember what the word utopia means... -------------------- Quote of the Day "You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, The Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the US of arrogance, and Germany doesn't want to go to war." Posts: 560 | Registered: Saturday, August 31 2002 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 32
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written Wednesday, April 30 2003 11:51
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quote:Actually, if you play wisely you can manage to create a city that can get by with zero taxes. However, this will only work for small cities. If you get to large paying for the various city services can become a pain. They might not like the Waste Disposal Plant, but it lowers their taxes. -------------------- Lt. Sullust Cogito Ergo Sum Polaris Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2080
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written Wednesday, April 30 2003 11:55
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quote:Cause the governments would collapse without taxes. Then we'd be plunged into chaos and wouldn't need go to work, cause we'd be too busy fighting for our lives. Also crimes will be easier to commit when to police don't have any funds. Yay! Posts: 1918 | Registered: Sunday, October 13 2002 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Wednesday, April 30 2003 14:47
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Sorry, didn't know that, Drakey. Anyway, it's not that bad... -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, April 30 2003 14:59
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quote:Literally, it means "no place." Isn't that a nice commentary? Still, although a utopian society may never exist, utopian ideas can be incorporated to some degree in real-world societies. —Alorael, who doesn't see how taxation is necessary. After all, money isn't necessary, strictly speaking. But there must be some form of organization that receives the benefits of labor in return for services or everything would regress to Hobbes's state of nature, in which strong individuals would be able to take advantage of weak ones in the absence of any organized power. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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For Carnage, Apply Within
Member # 95
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written Wednesday, April 30 2003 15:43
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The biggest problem with leaving everything to private enterprise is something economists call "public goods" (if memory serves). These are things like national defense, urban roadways, sanitation, and so forth that you can't exclude people from benefiting from, whether they pay for them or not. Without a government of some sort to force people to support these goods (or at least recruit enough voluntary support to get them done), these will go unprovided, becuase nobody will pay for them of their own free will. -------------------- We were once Mao Posts: 567 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Friday, May 2 2003 09:31
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BTW, utopianism and millenarianism are usually allied ('the New Jerusalem', etc). Marie Louise Berneri had good cause to complain that utopias turned tepid and cautious in the 19th century, just as Christianity went into decline. Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 1823
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written Friday, May 2 2003 09:53
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quote:Wow. I had a big long arguement on some laissez-faire 'taxes are theft' type site not too long ago. It ended with me being bombarded with insultys and banned without them listening, but hey, as long as they get their tax cuts. I might have a link to that somewhere... here -------------------- Riot Shields Voodoo Economics It's just business Cattle prods And the IMF I trust I can rely on your vote Posts: 530 | Registered: Sunday, September 1 2002 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 2627
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written Friday, May 2 2003 12:43
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It is theoretically possible to run a country without taxes, but you would need a perfectly honest government. How it would work is that EVERYTHING would be state owned, including shops, etc. thus meaning that the government got money to spend on public services from stuff like that. The one possible problem is that the prices for food, etc. would need to be fairly high. Complete "self governence" would probably only work with small populations, i.e. everyone has a say in every government decision, however this would become almost impossible to organise with any more than about 20 people. -------------------- NUKE NORTH KOERA (No offence to any Koreans) "Bouts of insanity stop us all going mad.":- Spike Milligan I mod supaniks ass at Random_stupidity NFC FOREVER!!! Posts: 81 | Registered: Wednesday, February 12 2003 08:00 |
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Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
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written Friday, May 2 2003 13:15
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The other way is for nothing to be state owned, and have no government at all, except possibly for a small one made up of unpaid people. It has its own hefty problems, of course. -------------------- Grammar wenches beware: This is the house that the malt that the rat that the cat that the dog that the cow that the maiden that the man that the priest that the cock that the farmer kept waked married kissed milked tossed worried killed ate lay in. My Website desperance.net - Leave your sanity at the door Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2669
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written Friday, May 2 2003 13:20
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Yeah, especially in a gun-totin' country like the US. General question here: Just how exactly does a huge tax cut create more jobs, as Bush so happily proclaims? I just foresee more federal workers laid off, being a further burden on the gov't. The rich will get to be a little richer, the poor will most likely either blow it or use it to pay down some debt. Either way, I fail to see the intelligence of a tax cut when state governments can't make ends meet and are doing all sorts of irresponsible stuff like combining schools, shutting down rape crisis centers, etc. -------------------- ... Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, May 2 2003 14:48
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More to the point, why is the creation of more jobs a good thing when we're producing more than we need already? Surely the purpose of technological progress over the centuries has been to reduce the amount of work that has to be done. -------------------- I believe there are 15 747 724 136 275 002 577 105 653 961 181 555 468 044 717 914 527 116 709 366 231 425 076 185 631 031 296 protons in the universe, and the same number of electrons. -- Sir Arthur Eddington Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Friday, May 2 2003 14:55
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Because we need to pay for our food and everything... and anyway, even if we have everything we need, not everyone does. But let's not turn this into another Gov't-bashin' topic. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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For Carnage, Apply Within
Member # 95
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written Friday, May 2 2003 15:21
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RentBoy: Taxes are a drain on what we economicsy types call the "circular flow of money." Essentially, the more money there is in the system, the more gets spent, both by consumers on stuff, and by companies on production and employment, and taxes take money out. EDIT: FOrgot this part. The problem with Bush's economic plan is that government borrowing decreases the amount of money available for borrowing in the private sector, which raises interest rates and decreases investment. Defecit spending by the government hinders economic activity, and in our current sitation, easily cancels out any benefits a tax cut may have. Thuryl: Because the world is inherently irrational, and people's capacity to create needs for themselves infinite? [ Friday, May 02, 2003 15:42: Message edited by: [Sarachim] ] -------------------- We were once Mao Posts: 567 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00 |
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Member # 165
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written Friday, May 2 2003 16:53
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I would put up with Bush if he were a truly idealistic capitalist. Sadly, there are no truly idealistic capitalists above the age of 21. After that point, they get the bright idea that the labor of the many should be for the sole purpose of the comfort of the few. They have no ideals of "economic expansion" or "free markets" or "laissez-faire" in their hearts; they have nothing but stone-cold avarice. Yeah, I'd put up with Bush if he were making tax cuts to benefit the nation as a whole. Sadly, the only persons to benefit from it are the idle rich. -------------------- desperance -- je me souviens arena -- et je me souviens de vous Posts: 2449 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, May 2 2003 18:04
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Part of the need for constant labor is the lovely Puritan work ethic. Americans, and probably Europeans as well, view any spare time as sloth, and sloth as a sin. —Alorael, who disagrees with Alec to a certain extent. The difference is that socialists see the needs of many as more important than any individuals, while capitalists say that everyone needs to create their own opportunities and work for themselves. There is idealism there; many truly believe that it is possible for everyone to live and thrive in today's economic world. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 39
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written Friday, May 2 2003 18:46
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Alorael: Europeans do not, in general, ascribe to the Puritan work ethic. Hell, France takes a month off every year. -------------------- desperance.net - honestly, no biting. Posts: 1074 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2669
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written Saturday, May 3 2003 05:55
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Funny thing, though, when compared side-by-side, Europeans are generally more productive (judged by hourly output). I think it's a crying shame that there isn't more vacation time in the US. Most large companies will give you two weeks, if you're lucky. My father, working in Germany, had six weeks paid vacation each year, and ten personal days for emergencies. If you treat your employees nicely, the might be more inclined to do better work for you. As for the tax cut: wasn't it Clinton's crowning achievement that he ran a balanced budget for what, five or so years? Two years of Bush and the deficit is through the roof. Is government spending not considered money in the loop? They are, after all, the largest employer in the nation. -------------------- ... Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00 |
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Member # 165
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written Saturday, May 3 2003 06:05
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I think there was a Scottish man who ran a textile mill that we could all learn from. He had money to spare, apparently, and set up a work community where the workers were treated in a way that only became standard very recently [children can't work, free education, short workdays, high pay]. To the surprise of everyone at that time, it not only turned a profit but turned rather high profits. The lesson to be learned from this is that people will work much harder if they like their job, and they're much more likely to like their job if you treat them well. -------------------- desperance -- je me souviens arena -- et je me souviens de vous Posts: 2449 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00 |
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For Carnage, Apply Within
Member # 95
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written Saturday, May 3 2003 08:23
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Alec: The man you're thinking of is Robert Owen, probably the most successful of the Utopian socialists at realizing his visions. On the other hand, when he reinvested the profits of his original experiment (it was called New Lanark) in a larger-scale project in the Midwest, it crashed and burned, and Owen lost everything. So we should take his original success with a grain of salt. RentBoy: It depends where you go, but I doubt European workers are significantly more productive than their American counterparts. I remember reading a year or so ago that California's GDP had eclipsed that of France, even though California is only about half as populous. Other, more conservative states also probably have even higher worker productivity than California's. [ Saturday, May 03, 2003 08:26: Message edited by: [Sarachim] ] -------------------- We were once Mao Posts: 567 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2669
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written Saturday, May 3 2003 08:38
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Let's remember, though, that California has two giant anomalies, Silicon Valley and Hollywood. The first one has sickening amounts of venture capital flowing through it, while the second one...well, we all know about hollywood and how someone like Jim Carrey can make $20 million for three months' worth of work. -------------------- ... Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00 |