Is illegal downloading such a bad thing?
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BANNED
Member # 4074
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written Monday, July 23 2007 11:04
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Now i'm not talking about illegally downloading something maliciously like SSNs for identity theft or anything. I'm talking about downloading cracked game, ripped movies/songs, or even software like windows OS or word. When I was a teen in college I had pretty much no money. I was living off about 5g a year from my campus job and didn't have parents to rely on. This didn't make me not want to play games and watch movies and stuff. And I don't think that it's a bad thing that I ripped off anything I could over the net that I couldn't afford in real life. When I got out of college and got a decent job and had money I ended up buying the stuff I really liked but had only ever had cracked versions of before. And the stuff I didn't buy I certainly had no regrets about "testing". So I dunno, is downloading cracked stuff really the work of the devil :) . cough...harry potter...cough Posts: 47 | Registered: Sunday, March 7 2004 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 6670
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written Monday, July 23 2007 11:20
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You do not possess the right to be entertained. Moreover, these products have to come from somewhere. Even if you were altruistic enough to legitimately aquire all your products a few years after you stole them (which I doubt), you are still depriving the artists/programmers/etc. of their income five years ago, when they needed it most. quote:The internet isn't "Real Life"? News to me. Just because vendors are distributing over mediums that weren't around a couple decades ago doesn't mean that they are denied the same laws as more traditional businesses that operate in "Real Life". -------------------- (Yes, this will be locked - this board belongs to a shareware company. And yes, I'm feeding a troll. But there are far too many other people with a lesser form of this mindset, and I'm writing for their sake.) [ Monday, July 23, 2007 11:21: Message edited by: Dintiradan ] Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 8131
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written Monday, July 23 2007 11:20
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Is it the devil: No Is it unethical: A matter of opinion Is it illigal: Yes nuff said Posts: 145 | Registered: Sunday, February 18 2007 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4074
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written Monday, July 23 2007 11:32
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Wow Dint... I wasn't attacking anyone with my post so why the personal flame? All I did was post my opinion. And I'm not disputing that it's illegal, but so is smoking weed or drinking under-age. Are you saying you never did any of that? It's part of growing up in my opinion and I would honestly be disappointed if I had a kid that grew up never having the ability to download and install a cracked piece of software. Posts: 47 | Registered: Sunday, March 7 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 8131
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written Monday, July 23 2007 11:38
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No I didn't partake in either of those activities, while my opinions on them differ from that of the law on both accords teh law is teh law. I've taken the high road and written my congress persons on several topics including, drinking age, marijuana, and the state of copyright law. Just because you don't like a law doesn't make it any less of a law, but with enough support these things can get changed, unfortunately I fear today's youth have been tvpopmelted into apathy. While I think a lot of media should be released under different terms than they are right now (CC) it's up to the rights holder, they created something and they deserve to be able to do what they want with it, if that means, charge for it so be it, if that means charge a lot for it so be it. I can't afford it isn't a legit excuse. I can't afford a Benz I'm not going to go jack one. [ Monday, July 23, 2007 11:40: Message edited by: macdude22 ] Posts: 145 | Registered: Sunday, February 18 2007 08:00 |
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BANNED
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written Monday, July 23 2007 11:41
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quote:1. I possess the right to be happy. Entertainment makes me happy. 2. I specifically said in my OP that I didn't end up buying EVERY piece of software I used cracked versions of, just the ones I really liked. 3. How could I be depriving a programmer of something I didn't have in the first place? ie money. Posts: 47 | Registered: Sunday, March 7 2004 08:00 |
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BANNED
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written Monday, July 23 2007 11:43
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quote:Is the reason for that because it's against your morals or because you just don't have the expertise to steal a car easily without getting caught. Posts: 47 | Registered: Sunday, March 7 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 8131
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written Monday, July 23 2007 11:50
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Cripes it's because its wrong. I don't disagree that many of today's entertainment items are grossly overpriced, but that don't make it ok to violate copyright law. Posts: 145 | Registered: Sunday, February 18 2007 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 27
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written Monday, July 23 2007 11:57
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Your rights end where other's rights begin (or something like that.) Theft is theft, no exceptions. It might be hard for some people to understand but nothing is free. You may not be paying for the music you're stealing but that money has to come from somewhere, like the cost of concert tickets. -------------------- Enraged Slith's Blades of Avernum Website Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4074
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written Monday, July 23 2007 12:03
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quote:I like that, and for the record, I haven't downloaded music since Napsters hayday and that was before it was absolute that it's illegal. Though also since I stopped downloading music I never actually listen to any....could there be a connection....hmmm Posts: 47 | Registered: Sunday, March 7 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Monday, July 23 2007 12:10
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EDIT: Oh, alright. Fine. [ Monday, July 23, 2007 12:41: Message edited by: The Almighty Do-er of Stuff ] -------------------- My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4074
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written Monday, July 23 2007 12:20
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The Almighty Do-er of Stuff: So because I would rather discuss the morality surrounding copyright laws as opposed to god or harry potter I am deserving of being banned and having my thread locked? Heaven forbid free-thinking be allowed. CONFORM CONFORM CONFORM Posts: 47 | Registered: Sunday, March 7 2004 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Monday, July 23 2007 12:23
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This might have well been a poll. Lawful vs chaotic. The problem is in pre-testing software (and other digital media.) There is no excuse for pirating Jeff's stuff because you get to test it out first. If you like it, you buy it. Other things, like music, can be tested via the radio and then purchased. No real excuse for pirating music except general laziness. Which isn't much of an excuse, but then again the person is lazy. Expensive software, without trial versions, is just begging to be cracked and copied. I've done it, and either am disappointed or end up purchasing it. In some cases the preview is a time period and I never even see the software, which means the company loses my business until I see the product, usually by "borrowing" a copy. In short, it's a tough line to draw, especially for a company. They need to both widen the audience and make money. Jeff has a great system, others, not so much. -------------------- WWtNSD? Synergy - "I don't get it." Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Monday, July 23 2007 12:25
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EDIT: :o [ Monday, July 23, 2007 12:43: Message edited by: The Almighty Do-er of Stuff ] -------------------- My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Monday, July 23 2007 12:31
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Um ADoS? You are over-reacting a bit here. Questioning the morality of illegally downloaded software is not explicitly forbidden. Discussion of methods is forbidden. And besides, you should encourage the building inspector to have a snack so that they are distracted from any code violations. My inspector loves talking trains, so that takes the place of food for me. We just walk around looking at studs and sheets of plywood talking about 2-2-6 until he runs out of breath and signs off. It works. Feed your inspector! My electric inspector loves tuna, especially the stuff I catch and can myself. I've yet to fail inspection... Edit- I suppose that you could say this falls under the "illegal activities" clause, but that is a stretch. Again, this isn't methods by morals. And discussion of morals have been allowed before. [ Monday, July 23, 2007 12:33: Message edited by: Jumpin' Sarcasmon ] -------------------- WWtNSD? Synergy - "I don't get it." Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4074
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written Monday, July 23 2007 12:35
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Hmm just read through the Code of Contact. Minor infraction: + Faulty accusation of a member or moderator, including calling for the leaving or banning of a member that is innocent of infraction. Major Infraction: + Any communication that is intended to harass, belittle, humiliate, threaten or cause embarrassment to a fellow member. I think some people may need a refresh. And if this thread does cross the line of " + Discussion of illegal activities. " then by all means lock the thread. I thought that simply referred explaining how to do illegal activities and such. Posts: 47 | Registered: Sunday, March 7 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5545
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written Monday, July 23 2007 12:40
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Society is a large scale pact. People live under certain restrictions in exchange for the promise that others will do the same. Consequences are put into place in order to protect those who proposed a certain rule. It is not necessary to obey laws the you consider immoral, but it is far more honorable to take the punishment readily if you do so. I invite you to read Martin Luther King Jr's "Letter from the Birmingham City Jail" for more on this. (Obviously, Blue Laws, which are rarely enforced anyway, do not fall under this idea. Also, for laws, such as Jaywalking, that are intended only to settle lawsuits, you are obviously not required by any but the strictest moral code to turn yourself in.) Now, morals can be a bit stricter. There are very few so called "victimles" crimes. Downloading illegal music is akin to stealing a CD or a painting. It's art, and people have a right to the rewards of their skill. Now, I'm a big fan of public domain, but unless the U.S. makes a big shift toward socialism in the near future, I doubt that you, or any of us, will be working for free. Don't force someone to give you their hard work without any pay off. Many people willingly give their time for free: look into freeware and free indie music. Start with OpenOffice.org and The Gimp. If that doesn't work for you... wait until you get a job. Software is not essential to your survival. Edit: I guess a great deal happened as I was writing the above. So, my disclaimer: I in no way advocate illegal activities, nor to I seek to belittle those who engage in them. I simply believe that, if you choose to reap the benefits of society, that you should allow others to as well. [ Monday, July 23, 2007 13:01: Message edited by: Actaeon ] -------------------- Plaudite, amici, comedia finita est. Posts: 344 | Registered: Friday, February 25 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Monday, July 23 2007 12:52
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Okay, fine. Sorry, Koranuso. I'm a bit jumpy is all. At any rate, if you have a right to be happy, so does everyone else. Unfortunately, not everyone can be happy all the time. I know the Declaration of Independence states that men have an inalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, but it's illogical to say that everyone has the right to be happy. In a perfect world we would all be happy, but unfortunately this is not a perfect world and all actions have consequences and opportunity costs. If you steal to make yourself happy, you are making someone else less happy in the process. Don't they have the right to be happy? Or does the right apply only to you? EDIT: Fixed broken tags. EDIT 2: Really fixed broken tags this time. [ Monday, July 23, 2007 12:53: Message edited by: The Almighty Do-er of Stuff ] -------------------- My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4074
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written Monday, July 23 2007 13:00
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It's cool, I honestly didn't think this would be such a controversial topic but I am not disappointed. Discussing this kind of stuff is intellectually stimulating and I might even go so far as to say...fun :) . No hard feelings, we all have our own morality line and not everyones grey area is as large as some peoples. Posts: 47 | Registered: Sunday, March 7 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Monday, July 23 2007 13:12
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To be honest, I don't necessarily think all temporary piracy is wrong, although I do think permanent piracy is. I just reacted to the piracy thread title, the likes of which usually title threads containing derisive communists insulting people and actively encouraging piracy, which usually results in BAN, and thus read the thread with a biased eye. I reread the thread after Salmon said I overreacted and saw that I had, in fact, overreacted. [ Monday, July 23, 2007 13:13: Message edited by: The Almighty Do-er of Stuff ] -------------------- My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Monday, July 23 2007 13:32
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The Declaration of Independence was a nicely worded "Dear John" letter to the King (and people) of England. It doesn't have much weight other than that, and was supplanted by the Bill of Rights and US Constitution as far as actually defining rights of citizens within this country. Drew, is that more or less correct? It's pretty much all I remember from my days on Bunker Hill. -------------------- WWtNSD? Synergy - "I don't get it." Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Monday, July 23 2007 14:30
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It's true that the DoI doesn't have any real weight, but as it turns out the Constitution itself says nothing whatsoever about the right to pursue happiness, so I mentioned the DoI instead. It wasn't really a central part of the argument anyway. -------------------- My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7488
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written Monday, July 23 2007 14:39
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If you can't afford it, don't steal it. Back in the day, I was a real freeware junkie--still am, though to a much lesser degree. You'd be amazed at how many goodies you can obtain without theft. -------------------- Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so. If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you. Posts: 558 | Registered: Friday, September 15 2006 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5483
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written Monday, July 23 2007 14:48
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quote:Actually they make little to no money from these sales. Programmers and such are paid for their work when they do it regardless of copies sold later. The publishers and retailers are the ones who make major mooolah off stuff and they make plenty anyway. Musicians do make money from their CD's but not much. They make most of their money from live appearances. Also many people do this just to try it out before buying or choose to buy it later because they liked it. Another major point to keep in mind is that most people who do this wouldn't have purchased the product anyway, usually because, like the starter of this thread, they don't make that kind of money and therefore no income is lost. -------------------- Ignorance Is bliss -Cypher (Matrix) Don't think you can; know you can -Morpheus (Matrix) sanity is overrated :) Posts: 130 | Registered: Monday, February 7 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6096
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written Monday, July 23 2007 15:31
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For me, piracy isn't a black-and-white issue. I mean: Being illegal doesn't make a thing wrong automatically. The essential question for me is why a thing is illegal. When I was small, it was completely legitimate to make copies of recordings on cassettes and share them with friends. It wasn't called "stealing", at least where I live. If you steal a car, that's taking someone's material property. However, if you "steal" (make illegal COPIES of) software or a song, it is not exactly the same thing. The act of you making the copy doesn't cost anything to those who made the original. Still, the way capitalism works, the maker of the song or software doesn't usually get much money from just one original piece of work. So, selling copies is needed to keep a software designer in business. That's why I consider it necessary to support software designers by buying games. On the other hand, the same economical system strives to prevent people from sharing knowledge and resources around the world, when it could be done practically without costs to anyone. In any case, drawing lines on where making copies is bad is not a simple thing. When it comes to copyrighted plant seeds (you can "copy" those, too!), the widening concept of "stealing" definitely goes too far, in my opinion. On the issue of piracy, my opinion is more complicated. [ Monday, July 23, 2007 15:35: Message edited by: *Milu* ] Posts: 77 | Registered: Sunday, July 10 2005 07:00 |
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