Israel - Lebanon conflict
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Infiltrator
Member # 5410
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written Friday, July 14 2006 08:09
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I am saddened that so many are suffering and dying in the Middle East. Isreals' actions are in my view punitive and go beyond a measured response. That being said, Lebanon is not an innocent party in this (undeclared) war, as Hezbollah operate with impunity in the south, along Isreals' border and the cabinet of government even includes two members of Hezbollah. Isreal does need to protect it's citizens in some manner and, if Lebanon, will not act to provide a secure border (refusing to disarm Hezbollah, allowing Beirut to operate as the main base for Hezbollah) then unilateral action may be whats required. -------------------- "Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things." "You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares." Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 6074
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written Friday, July 14 2006 08:54
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quote:What I don't think that everyone here gets is that way before the kidnappings every happened, Israel had been attacking peaceful non-terrostist civilians for no reason at all for many years. Also, what realy makes me confused and suprised is why Saudia Arabia stops giving them oil, and why the neighboring countries didn't immedietly help Lebanon. And if you were to ask people in the Middle East what they think of Israel, they wouldn't be too positive. What's pretty sad though is that Israel, and Israel alone if they wanted to, could easily take out any of the countries around them. -------------------- --------------------------------- Live long and prosper. Viva mucho tiempo y prospere. Habiter long et prospérer. Leben Sie lang und prosperieren Sie. Lever lang og prosper. Longos vivos e prosper. Lunghi in tensione e prosperano. ??????????? ????????? ???? ? ????. Posts: 84 | Registered: Wednesday, July 6 2005 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5410
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written Friday, July 14 2006 09:04
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quote:Are you serious? Do you know how Isreal came into being, the fact that when Isreal was being set up it was a compromise solution that the Jewish people agreed to (they compromised) but the Palestinians refused to compromise and continue to do so. That they have had to fight several wars and an unending terrorst battle to preserve their tiny spit of land? That Arab nations today continue to deny Isreal's right to exist as a sovereign nation? quote:They have never viewed Isreal positively. This is not a recent development. It is a mindset that began before any Isreali actions of self-defense. [ Friday, July 14, 2006 09:10: Message edited by: Oh, the pain, the pain ] -------------------- "Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things." "You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares." Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Friday, July 14 2006 09:15
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quote:I am similarly confused by the sudden outburst of rarely-seen accounts with this topic's arrival. Perhaps it's just the sort of thing that naturally brings out lurkers, but it's still weird. And really, I can see how Israel would be down to their last ounce of patience (or how they lost it years ago), but I'm always inclined to say that there has to be a better way. I'm not saying it's a practical one (it's not), or it's one that people will ever pursue (they won't), just wistfully hoping that one day, people wil get along for five minutes over there. [ Friday, July 14, 2006 09:18: Message edited by: Ephesos ] -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 32
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written Friday, July 14 2006 10:03
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quote:I believe that would have severe repercussions, to the extent that Israel wouldn't last very long against the onslaught that followed... -------------------- Lt. Sullust Cogito Ergo Sum Polaris Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7195
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written Friday, July 14 2006 10:58
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quote:HMMMMMM!!! You say Arab nations deny Israel the right to have it's own nation ... Well one can see that ISRAEL IS DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THING: They are denying the Palestinians to have their own nation, they are illigally occupying the land they promissed they'd return ages ago ... So if they had the right to occupy those lands to defend their state, NOW ALSO THE PALESTINIANS OUGHT TO HAVE THE RIGHT TO FIGHT ISRAEL AND OCCUPY THEIR LAND!!! But wait, Palestinians only want to liberate THEIR OWN land, the one which is rightfully (and also Israelis agreed to that!!!!) theirs. So, that makes them the evil ones and Israel the good??? And not to mention Israel commiting holocaust against Palestinian children and women (who they raped and dehumanised first) in refugee camps. But NOOOOOO! the Israelis are GOOD! I mean, how could the world's oppinion of such a horrible thing change all the way in just 60 years. It's a phoenomenon: HOLOCAUST: FROM TOTAL DISGRACE TO A HEAVENLY ACT OF GOOD!!! It's just plain old stupid if you ask me!!! -------------------- I don't care what you say, I'm punk and Hardcore all the way! Posts: 185 | Registered: Sunday, June 4 2006 07:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Friday, July 14 2006 11:44
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quote:You've forgotten the main one: after killing all those children, they take their blood, mix it with flour, and make matza bread out of it. And they also drink the blood of Palestinian children during their rituals at Passover. -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7195
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written Friday, July 14 2006 12:12
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Well, Zeviz, it may all be a joke to you, but there are proofs of those slaughters ... Maybe in usa you don't get a chance to hear such things, the jewish loby being so strong and all ... I wonder how you'd react if you were a palestinian child playing hide and seek with tanks and armed soldiers, having exactly no future ahead of you, because something that is your birthright to have is constantly being pulled away from you. How'd you feel if you got arrested just coz you'd look like a man who your mother (if you'd have one that is) spoke with yesterday at the store who is a friend of a person who is a niece of a man who is distantly related to a man who was seen at the square at which the bomber blow him/her self up. So how'd it be if you lived next door to an uncle of an alledged Hamas member and the buldozer'd "accidently" run your house to the ground while destroying his house. ... I'm not saying that terrorists're good or anything, just that the Israelis are doing exactly what's been done to them half a century ago - they maybe haven't actually killed as many people, but dehumanization is in my opinion just as bad. Can humanity really not learn anything from history - or are they just in the fase of coppying the pattern they see???? -------------------- I don't care what you say, I'm punk and Hardcore all the way! Posts: 185 | Registered: Sunday, June 4 2006 07:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Friday, July 14 2006 12:42
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My post wasn't a joke. The same sources from which your "proofs" originated also have "proofs" that Israelis use special chemicals to make Palestinian girls promiscuous and "proofs" that Israel poisons water in Gaza strip. Let's take the most blatant example from the BS you've been posting: quote:Do you know how many people a tank canon could kill in a crowd? If a single Israeli tank ever started shooting up Palestinian crowds with its canon, there'd be hundreds of dead Palestinians that day. If Israel really decided to use its tanks to "slaughter Palestinian children", it could kill more people in a day than died on both sides in 5 years of fighting. Even if Israel just took an example from Egypt and ordered its troops to open fire on Palestinian demonstrators, they could kill over a thousand people in a single day. (Which is what Egypt did in 60s (I don't remember exact date) when Palestinians tried to protest against conditions in refugee camps.) [ Friday, July 14, 2006 12:54: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, July 14 2006 13:29
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GremlinJoe has always gone from semi-coherent to coherent and back again. He's even said why. He's not a puppet. Actually, I doubt anyone is. Israel brings out the strong feelings that make everyone proud to have his or her name attached to a diatribe. Jews were willing to compromise with Palestinians in Israel. Palestinians were not, largely because they were not organized on any state level and it was their land anyway. Things deteriorated from there and the result was Israel. Israel is now unwilling to give concessions without getting some in return. They have the firepower to do that. The Palestinians are unwilling to accept that through Israeli actions, their own leaders' actions, and the world's actions they can no longer claim all of Palestine. Even getting some of it requires generosity on the part of Israel. (Is Israel morally obligated to be generous? Yes. But how often does morality guide states?) Israelis can't just pack up and leave because after more than half a century it really is the only home Israelis have. Historical precedent against current fact is an ugly fight. All this is besides the point, though. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict isn't the same as the Israeli-Lebanese conflict. I'm most impressed by the fact that "Israelis" have been so easily demonized just like "Americans" are held in low esteem throughout the world. There are, in fact, many Israelis who oppose military actions, who want reconciliation, and who are perfectly reasonable people. Unfortunately, these persons aren't "the people" any more than Americans on Spiderweb are representative of America. Basically, you're asking for Israelis to be better people than Americans, and it's not going to happen. It's still wrong, but it's human nature at play. If Hezbollah attacks out of Lebanon, the powerful and angry Israel will start smiting. It can't let anyone get away with that, and more importantly its people need to be sure that nobody can get away with that. —Alorael, who doesn't think anyone here (himself included) is qualified to dictate policy to a very small nation-state surrounded by very hostile neighbors. Bombing those neighbors at will is obviously wrong, but so is rolling over and playing dead. Diplomacy has failed for decades. What else is Israel supposed to do besides rant and rave and retaliate fruitlessly? Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6700
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written Friday, July 14 2006 13:35
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EDIT: You know something, despite the fact that I just put half an hour into this post, Alo has much better stuff to say than I do. So instead of reading my dissertations, go and read the previous post again. -------------------- The Silent Assassin spent most of the day filling in a divot which was made when his experiments with zero-point physics accidentally threw a taxi into our topside backyard. With results like that, he still wonders why we don't have neighbors. [ Friday, July 14, 2006 13:39: Message edited by: Lenar Research Facilites ] -------------------- -Lenar Labs What's Your Destiny? Ushmushmeifa: Lenar's power is almighty and ineffable. All hail lord Noric, god of... well, something important, I'm sure. Posts: 735 | Registered: Monday, January 16 2006 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7067
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written Friday, July 14 2006 13:37
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quote:Just curious, but how do you define wrong? -------------------- "I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him. Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 5814
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written Friday, July 14 2006 14:44
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quote:I am amused. You need a thesaurus, my friend. "Fight" can mean several very different things, one of which is "struggle" or "engage in a fight", which implies no aggession on the part of the fighter; however, it can also, in context, mean "attack" or "oppress". I leave it up to you to make the descision this time, and maybe you won't make another slip. -------------------- quote: Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Friday, July 14 2006 15:06
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What I like is that the swarm of convenient Eurotrash have arrived in the topic and made it easy for the dumb vengeance-obsessed Zionists herein to pounce on them instead of addressing my contention that the Hz. militants are a God-damn tar baby. Vengenace, hell - this is exactly what they want. Cheer the Israeli government on and you're cheering on the inevitable destruction of Israel. Period. Even ignoring the moral issues at stake here - a big even, but a necessary one - understand that this is a remarkable strategic blunder on the behalf of the Israeli government and will bring only ruin to Israel in the long term. Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Friday, July 14 2006 15:13
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For those that claim Israel has taken away the Palestinian land. The Palestianians got two states in 1948. One was Jordan and the other one Palestine was seized by Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt in 1948 during the first war. Israel captured territory from Egypt (Gaza), Jordan (West Bank), and Syria (Golan Heights) in 1967. The Palestinians were going to get the land back from Israel when they completed peace negotiations but Arafat, Hamas, etc. preferred to start a new war in order to get even the land of Israel in addition to what they now claim is there state. You notice between 1948 and 1967 none of the Arab countries formed the captured territory into a Palestinian state. They kept the Palestinians in refugee camps in order to have a "cause." All Israel has gotten for its efforts is attacked. That they have retaliated with so much restraint as to minimize civilian casualties is overlooked. Hamas has deliberately sent suicide bombers against such military targets as holiday dinners, schools, pizza parlors, etc. and poorly targeted mortars and rockets in the general area of Israel. Hey any Jew is a legitimate target since he might be a soldier. Hezbollah has 15,000 rockets that they have been firing into northern Israel for years. They now can go 30 miles past the border into Haifa. Lebanon has for years been told by the UN to disarm Hezbollah and take back control of southern Lebanon from them but they have refused. Now some people are compalining that Lebanon is "innocent." Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 5814
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written Friday, July 14 2006 16:10
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quote:[/b] I notice that you gloss over the way that Israel got its territory in the first place. quote:Who claims that Lebanon is innocent? We claim that the Lebanese people are innocent. -------------------- quote: Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Friday, July 14 2006 16:47
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EDIT: You were. [ Friday, July 14, 2006 18:38: Message edited by: Imban ] -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Friday, July 14 2006 16:54
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quote:Let's see, Jews that weren't already living in Israel before the Palestinians bought land from Arabs. There were several areas where Jews have lived in Israel despite efforts to remove them. The UN partition gave a small area to establish Israel. Then it was attacked by Egypt, Syrai, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq and other Arab states in 1948. The cease fire established new borders just like in every other non-Isreali war. The current borders are the result of the 1967 war where Israel was attacked again. We'll skip over the 1956 war, the attacks by Egyptian back terrorist from Gaza, the 1973 war, and the Intafada. Only Egypt has formally ended the war with negotiations and received its territory back. The other countries are technically still at war since there were only cease fire talks. Name another country that gave back land while still at war. About half the US is the result of wars. France and Germany have fought over Alsace-Lorraine several times. Most countries that are victorious do not cede land captured during war. The UN resolutions require Israel to give back the land in return for secure borders which the Palestinians are not wiling to do. Both Hamas and Hezbollah call for the eradication of Israel. Fatah (PLO) still has in its charter that the formation of the Palestinian state is only one step in the elimination of Israel in spite of signing the Oslo accords. So under inernational law and precedent Israel is within its rights to retain control until a negotiated peace with all parties has been achieved. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6700
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written Friday, July 14 2006 16:54
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quote:Oh, yes. This one is interesting. See, Palestine didn't actually belong to the Arabs during the period of the Zionist movement, as it was under the recognized legal control of... GREAT BRITAIN, who had been given custodianship of the the territory after the fall of the Ottoman Turks! It was, shockingly enough, Britain who was in charge of the influx of the Jews. And here's the funny thing... the Arabs actually agreed to the founding of a Jewish State, as it was a condition for the founding of the Arab States. After WWII, the Arabs got so fed up with having Jews in the area that they started attacking the Brittish. So Britain pulled out, giving the fate of the territory into the hands of THE UNITED NATIONS, who, after many, many attempts at drawing a resolution, divided the land into two parts and recognized them as two separate and individual states: Israel (being less than a quarter of the disputed territory) for the Jews, and Jordan for the Arabs. This was fine, good, and well-accepted by everyone in the UN... except for the Arab League (consisting of Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and eventually Jordan), who wanted the entire region. Thus began the Israeli War of Independance, as the Jews fought for what had been given them. That's how they got their territory. Because it was given to them. -------------------- The Silent Assassin just gave me a compact disk and told me to think fast. Okay... I think that it's a DVD... -------------------- -Lenar Labs What's Your Destiny? Ushmushmeifa: Lenar's power is almighty and ineffable. All hail lord Noric, god of... well, something important, I'm sure. Posts: 735 | Registered: Monday, January 16 2006 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, July 14 2006 17:14
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Britain's rights to give away land that it held as a mandate, not a private fief, are rather questionable. —Alorael, who still doesn't think the history of whether or not the Jews deserve Israel is applicable. Hezbollah is not the Palestinians and is only tangentially interested in helping the Palestinians. Allowing the Palestinians to return would not make Hezbollah stop attacking. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6700
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written Friday, July 14 2006 17:57
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True. I merely provided that to get around someone's logical fallacy. -------------------- The Silent Assassin auditioned for a radio drama once. Somehow, he made the cast. Yeah. I know. -------------------- -Lenar Labs What's Your Destiny? Ushmushmeifa: Lenar's power is almighty and ineffable. All hail lord Noric, god of... well, something important, I'm sure. Posts: 735 | Registered: Monday, January 16 2006 08:00 |
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Shake Before Using
Member # 75
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written Friday, July 14 2006 18:27
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My apologies, but this thread really went foul. Alec: Please refrain from drawing comparisons between the other side of the debate and Hitler. It is generally considered impolite as it brings an end to rational discourse. Anarhiztok: That goes for you too. ubik: Flooding the topic with copied and pasted articles is not appreciated. Please refrain from doing so in the future TM: Doesn't it ever occur to you that if you have to circumvent the censor to make your post and your post is not in Japanese, that you do not actually need to ask if it is over the line? [ Friday, July 14, 2006 18:37: Message edited by: Imban ] Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |