United 93

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AuthorTopic: United 93
Agent
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After experiencing this powerful movie last night, it got me thinking about how unprepared we were for an attack. Something I thought a little about immediately after 9/11, but seeing the portral of our millitary unable to even get clearence for it's fighter jets to take-off brought it much more to light how bad the situation was. If you have not watched United 93, I give it my recommendation. Even with the violence and bad language (which were part of the reality of the day), imho it is a must see film.

I leave this topic open for comments on the movie, the events of 9/11, respect for the lost, and even some good old Bush bashing which is not far from my sentiment today.

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Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00
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Homeland Security: Cutting police funding and sending our defenders into a giant meat-grinder to topple a government that not only had no ties to Al Qaeda, but was an active enemy of them.

I have not seen U93, and I doubt that I will. There are enough reasons to hate bush as-is; I doubt my stress could handle anymore. But if it somehow convinces someone that indiscriminate slaughter is bad, all the better.

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Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by Jewels:

After experiencing this powerful movie last night, it got me thinking about how unprepared we were for an attack.
We will never be prepared for an attack. Yes, we need to take certain precautions, but it will ultimately be necessary to put an end to the factors that lead to attacks. They are many and complex, and people are going to argue with me over what they are, so I'm not going to get into this unless you really want to.
quote:

Something I thought a little about immediately after 9/11, but seeing the portral of our millitary unable to even get clearence for it's fighter jets to take-off brought it much more to light how bad the situation was.

I haven't seen U93 - nor, to be honest, do I plan to - but I'm certain that's not accurate; 'our military' didn't even attempt to scramble fighters until long after the last plane crashed. Authorization was not an issue there.

Would you mind giving a synopsis of the film? I have a lurking suspicion here.

The story of 9/11 was one of extreme executive incompetence - and U93 in particular was average people overcoming the ideologically-motivated impotence of the government in one of recent memory's direr hours. That would have been a compelling story. The problem is that the target audience for a film about 9/11 is not going to like that story - so, I would think, significant elements of the actual history would be toned down, removed, or even reversed.

I don't like speaking in ignorance, though, so I can't exactly say how well the film conforms to my suspicions. But...
Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
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Recently, in my Geometry class, my teacher showed us this short movie/clip about the attack on the Pentagon, as well as the other ones. It was, actually, pretty powerful.

United 93 too was as powerful, and it does show how unprepared America was. After 9/11,George Bush's approval rate supposedly rose to 86%. After 9/11 everything changed, mostly for Muslims, mostly because one bad Muslim runined the name of his religion.

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Posts: 84 | Registered: Wednesday, July 6 2005 07:00
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By design, the US military is almost never allowed to engage in actions on or over US soil. This is a part of maintaining civilian control of the military, which in my opinion is crucial to maintaining our form of government. Nations whose militaries turn their attention to what goes on inside their borders, as opposed to outwards, become dictatorships real quick, and I'm not for that.

Security for the US in the terms you're speaking of, Jewels, would come at the cost of the liberties we enjoy. I am not willing to cede my liberties to the government, especially one with an executive branch as numbnuts as our current one. Feel good about the NSA having the calling records for all phonecalls made in the US from three out of the four major phone carriers? Kind of tramples our right to privacy under the Ninth Amendment. But of course, those people outside of any public oversight would never use those records for purposes other than fighting terrorism, right? Of *course* you can trust the current administration, right? Right...

As for the movie, it strikes me as merely cashing in on a disaster. What really can be told again better here, to what end?
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by Drew:

By design, the US military is almost never allowed to engage in actions on or over US soil. This is a part of maintaining civilian control of the military, which in my opinion is crucial to maintaining our form of government. Nations whose militaries turn their attention to what goes on inside their borders, as opposed to outwards, become dictatorships real quick, and I'm not for that.
This is a fairly antiquated worldview, IMO. While I agree with the rest of your post - that more security would require trading in liberty, and nobody wants that - I would propose that on 9/11, the military would have essentially been working as a SWAT force by interdicting hijacked jets.

The civilian decision-makers would naturally decide when that SWAT force is called out - but the problem is that Bush & co had been gutting counterterrorism efforts for the last year, and so there was no effective intellectual infrastructure to respond to 9/11.
Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by Chaotic Wisdom:

Recently, in my Geometry class, my teacher showed us this short movie/clip about the attack on the Pentagon, as well as the other ones. It was, actually, pretty powerful... United 93 too was as powerful
Have I found the Mythic Dumbass who actually cared about 9/11? What's so "powerful" about it? Sure, 3,000 people died. On the other hand, countless civilians have died in Iraq, and there are 25,000 deaths every day from starvation.

So then, what's so special about 9/11? Are the victims white and not brown? Is it every True American's duty to care only about taxpayers? Or do we simply feel sorry for the twin towers because they look like giant dicks? I'm not sure what explanation you'll have, but here's hoping it's a good one.

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Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
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Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by Keto-san:

...and there are 25,000 deaths... every day from starvation.[/QB]
I know what you mean. The reason for that is that it's common. If the news broadcast it every day then they would lose their audience because everyone was so sad. People either don't care or don't know.

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Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
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The "Mythic Dumbass" TM? I think that might be a bit much. Many people care about what happened on 9/11. The world has many problems, and you could very easily argue that, in the face or world hunger, terrorism is an insignificant threat. These problems don't take away from the horror that 9/11 was for so many people. Several factors made 9/11 such a mindblowing, horrific event for me. I will admit that the proximity to the events added something to the situation, I live in central PA, within 3 hours drive of all three crash sites. Yes, I am going to be a little unnerved by this. While I don't have any personal acquaintances who died in the attacks, I know some people who did lose friends. I knew people who worked at the pentagon and at the WTC, so yes, it made it more horrific for me. Call me an egocentric American if you wish, but it's a lot easier to be upset by something you actually cam experience. The other factor that made it so horrific, is that these deaths, unlike deaths from malnourishment, were caused by a premeditated malicious intent to take the lives of thousands of strangers. While famine is caused by the inaction of many, these events were caused by the actions of a few evil men. So, I guess I'm a mythic dumbass too.

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Posts: 536 | Registered: Sunday, September 7 2003 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by The Worst Man Ever:

This is a fairly antiquated worldview, IMO. While I agree with the rest of your post - that more security would require trading in liberty, and nobody wants that - I would propose that on 9/11, the military would have essentially been working as a SWAT force by interdicting hijacked jets.

The civilian decision-makers would naturally decide when that SWAT force is called out - but the problem is that Bush & co had been gutting counterterrorism efforts for the last year, and so there was no effective intellectual infrastructure to respond to 9/11.

I don't know that it's so antiquated. Consider any other nation in which the military has a vital "internal security" role. I posit that it's the start of a slippery slope. Maybe a SWAT-like response for very specific purposes could be warranted, but only if there was a correspondingly incredible degree of transparency regarding the implementation of the measures, which is something the current regime is reluctant to grant and that the military is naturally predisposed against, given its cultural reluctance towards having orders reviewed or questioned. "You can't handle the truth!!!"
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
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I haven't seen the movie, but the New York Times review contains a telling passage:
quote:
The film carries the standard caution that it is "a creative work based on fact," yet [the director's] use of nonfiction tropes, like the jagged camerawork and the rushed, overlapping shards of naturalistic dialogue, invests his storytelling with a visceral, combat-zone verisimilitude.
http://movies2.nytimes.com/2006/04/28/movies/28unit.html

So, the movie contains no guarantee of facts; it is merely inspired by a true story. Anything you see on screen may or may not have happened as depicted.

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Posts: 508 | Registered: Thursday, May 29 2003 07:00
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Any movie that isn't a documentary changes the facts to some extent or another. This isn't news.

If anyone is actually forming an opinion on anything based on the facts as portrayed in a film (no matter how good the film), that is worrying.

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Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Ash Lael:

If anyone is actually forming an opinion on anything based on the facts as portrayed in a film (no matter how good the film), that is worrying.
Welcome to America, Ash. Enjoy your stay :P

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Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by s:

quote:
Originally written by Ash Lael:

If anyone is actually forming an opinion on anything based on the facts as portrayed in a film (no matter how good the film), that is worrying.
Welcome to real freaking life, Ash. Enjoy your stay :P

FYT.

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Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by When Kangaroos Snorkel:

Call me an egocentric American if you wish, but it's a lot easier to be upset by something you actually cam experience.
You can experience a car accident VERY easily, and yet you don't see people panicking over it.

quote:
Originally written by When Kangaroos Snorkel:

The other factor that made it so horrific, is that these deaths, unlike deaths from malnourishment, were caused by a premeditated malicious intent to take the lives of thousands of strangers. While famine is caused by the inaction of many, these events were caused by the actions of a few evil men.
With 9/11, it's true that a few evil men are responsible for the grievous acts. On the other hand, so is famine: After all, isn't it the multinational elite that exploits the third world? Or what about the "inaction of many"? Isn't the destitution of the Middle East caused by massive political inaction?

I am not knocking anyone connected with the losses for caring about 9/11 more than, say, famine or Iraq or anything of the like. That much would be absurd. The problem is that we don't care for other people AT ALL in general, even fellow Americans.

Americans can die? Is that the lesson that has America so spooked? Given its obsession with christianity, that may be: With our insane amounts of debt being stacked against us, now even our physical are fair game, nevermind that a towering bastion of American economic prosperity has just been hammered into the ground (castration). Maybe we're simply afraid of the reckoning day when the sun finally sets in the west and rises in the east. Maybe we're afraid of dying.

I dunno. I honestly don't. If someone can honestly tell me why these corn farmers in the dustbowls and suburbanite elite are getting their panties in a bunch over two towers' falling in a major urban area, I'd like to know.

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Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
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Who here has seen Loose Change? You should all see it. Worth your time. I watched it last months, and had not seen footage of the attacks since I watched it live.

I understand something like 50,000 to 100,000 people die each day on earth. It's not as though I can stop to mourn them. The difference with 9-11 is that it was premeditated. There are things we don't know about it. It has to do with the government. A small action caused a significant amount of death, and people want to know why. I can't name one person who died in those attacks. But I want to know the whole story. There's just someone trying to play god here. When someone dies of malnourishment, it's pretty simple. Not that I don't feel sorry for the starving ... hate to sound so right-wing in this, I'm typically not at all.

quote:
Originally written by When Kangaroos Snorkel:

... I live in central PA, within 3 hours drive of all three crash sites ...
I lived in York at the time of the crash, where are you?

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Posts: 284 | Registered: Tuesday, January 31 2006 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Nick Ringer:

Who here has seen Loose Change? You should all see it. Worth your time.
Is that the documentary that claims that 9/11 was staged by the US government?

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Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
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I haven't seen the movie, but I have seen since 9/11 that Bush and comapany haven't improved security for the US. They slashed the Clinton program to employ more police officers on the streets. Enforcement of the borders is a joke. The only form of transportation to get more security was passenger airlines.

A fugitive transported himself across the country by getting himself shipped in a cargo container. He was spotted when the carton broke open as it was being delivered to the house after the airplane ride.

In Arizona, the sister of Senator Kyl found a backpack left behind by an illegal alien crossing in from Mexico. The FBI came when the papers were writtren in Farsi and a phone number for Tehran, Iran was found on one page. Was it just another job seeker or a terrorist exploiting a porous border that still hasn't been fixed?

Bush has never solved the problems of 9/11 and has only laid the groundwork for another Gulf War. But when you don't hear criticism of your wrong policies you don't fix your mistakes.
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Explaining some of the immediate emotions that came from the Sept 11th hijackings seems to be the calling card of this film. As such, I have no need to see it as I clearly remember that day. It would seem that it could serve as a reminder in a decade or two, or maybe as a quick lesson to a child or grand child that asks about the events of that day. Needless to say, I won't be watching it in a theatre.

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Originally written by Kelandon:

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Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by Nick Ringer:

The difference with 9-11 is that it was premeditated.
I’ve heard people bring this up thousands of times. 9-11 was truly catastrophic, but by no means was it the only premeditated attack in the world. The United States has a really good history in getting involves in battles that are not its own despite knowing how it would affect people. I can recall the United States sending troops to Dominican Republic just because they didn’t agree with the new government, whom I should add was not communist nor terrorist. We have to admit that the United States is not the saint portrayed in 9/11, not that I’m expecting a country as influential as the US to be so.
The US has been responsible for killing thousands of innocent lives, possibly not with the intentions of Saddam Hussein, but definitely premeditated. So perhaps we should try to care a little bit less when it comes to us, and start caring a little bit more when it is happening to someone else.
I do understand how horrific 9/11 was, and I do understand how it mattered to us because we were close to it. We all have to admit that if it had happened in the Middle East and not in the US; Americans wouldn’t have cared nearly as much. My mom happened to live 45 min away from the twin towers, my uncle 30 min away, and my other uncle happened to work a couple of blocks away, and I do know people whose friends and relatives died in the twin towers. So I can relate about how it feels. It was scary and horrible to imagine that something could’ve happened to my family, especially with their obsession of doing shopping in downtown. However, I still care about all the people dying in Iraq at this moment.
Now, during my freshman year in college I heard a classmate talk about how we should drop a nuclear bomb in the Middle East and get rid of all of them. It took a lot of willpower for me not to stand up my sit and slap him. As a matter of fact, I had to leave the classroom in order not to do so. I can’t believe how someone could be so inconsiderate to not care about thousands of people dying just because there are from a different nationality.

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Posts: 562 | Registered: Friday, December 14 2001 08:00
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1. You should have slapped him. Then clawed his eyes. Then go for his vocal cords, so he can't talk and spread his hateful lies. Though, seriously, let's say we did nuke the Middle East. How would that make us any different from them? Hell, we would be even worse, because we would kill far more people, we would involve many non-hostile countrys (through direct damage and fallout), and we could possibly touch off World War Three, incite riots and rebellion, and/or start a nuclear war.

2. It is very true that 9-11 is not the only premediated attack. Even my country, the US, isn't totally free of blame. Think about Hiroshima. You could consider that a terrorist attack far worse than 9-11. Though you would need a very skewed perception of reality.

[ Sunday, May 14, 2006 22:15: Message edited by: Mr.Bookworm ]

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Polaris
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Definitely slap him. The only way to avoid feeling sick for the rest of the day.

(Unfortunately I can't talk; I never dare to slap idiots in public. :( )

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I slap idiots and/or bullies in public (well, school anyway) all the time. Believe me, it makes your day. Except for the beatings, suspensions, and threats of lawsuits, of course.

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Polaris
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I've come across some nutters on the internet who think Iran should be nuked before they can build nukes of their own. Could someone from the US please reassure me that it's just a few lunatics who spend too much time online who think that?

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