"'s and .'s

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AuthorTopic: "'s and .'s
Thralni
Master
Member # 5977
 written Monday, April 24 2006 08:26 Profile Homepage #0
I know how this is donme in Dutch:

She said: "He walks down the walkway."

However, I have no clue of how one puts the .'s and "'s in English. Can anybody tell me how to do it? is it (from the above example): ." or ". .

There are discussion about this in Holland. The mayor papers have no adopted the style that I used in the above example, but the other variant is also still used. Do you guys have any particular opinion on this strange linguistic phenomenon?

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dareva
Infiltrator
Member # 3220
 written Monday, April 24 2006 08:30 Profile #1
Well, I'm a little confused about what you're asking, but I would write that sentence as:

She said, "He walks down the walkway." The punctuation inside the quotation marks.
Posts: 437 | Registered: Sunday, July 13 2003 07:00
Arancaytar
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
 written Monday, April 24 2006 09:31 Profile Homepage #2
If I remember correctly, there is some convention in American English (not sure about British) that puts punctuation at the end of a quote always inside the quote (before the closing mark), regardless of the logic. I might have mangled that a bit.

Anyway, I find that, as with "splitting infinitives", it's easiest for me to completely ignore it. No English teacher ever gave me trouble for it, so I got used to writing that way. :rolleyes:

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Law Bringer
Member # 335
 written Monday, April 24 2006 10:12 Profile Homepage #3
In American English, the punctuation always goes inside the quotation marks at the end of the quote no matter how much it doesn't belong there.

Rupert says, "Hello, world."

I don't realize it, so I might ask a question:

Did Rupert say, "Hello, world?"

No, he didn't. He wasn't asking a question, but that's how it's written in America.

In the UK, punctuation only goes inside the quotation marks if it belongs in the quotation marks, so my question would be:

Did Rupert say, "Hello, world"?

[Edit: Sometimes, even with the best of "intentions," quotes can go "awry."]

—Alorael, who likes the UK's system much more. It mangles strings less. Actually, written language could adopt programming strings and make the quotes contain exactly the right punctuation inside the quotes and further punctuation outside the quotes. That would be much nicer.

[ Monday, April 24, 2006 10:14: Message edited by: Parody of Oneself ]
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Arancaytar
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
 written Monday, April 24 2006 10:20 Profile Homepage #4
That's great. I can just ignore the rule and say I am using British English. If it causes anyone rancour, that's their problem. :P

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Tyranicus
Law Bringer
Member # 6489
 written Monday, April 24 2006 10:20 Profile Homepage #5
quote:
Originally written by Parody of Oneself:

—Alorael, who likes the UK's system much more. It mangles strings less. Actually, written language could adopt programming strings and make the quotes contain exactly the right punctuation inside the quotes and further punctuation outside the quotes. That would be much nicer.
This is why I always use the British form even though I'm American through-and-through.

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Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Monday, April 24 2006 10:21 Profile #6
I prefer the British method as well, though I still believe that those who split infinitives (as well as those who incorrectly use the verb "comprise") have a special place in Hell reserved for them.

[ Monday, April 24, 2006 10:21: Message edited by: Drew ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
wz. As
Infiltrator
Member # 3040
 written Monday, April 24 2006 12:19 Profile #7
quote:
Originally written by Drew:

I prefer the British method as well, though I still believe that those who split infinitives (as well as those who incorrectly use the verb "comprise") have a special place in Hell reserved for them.
The rule supposedly comes from prescriptivists who thought English should be more like Latin, in which infinitives are a single word.

How would you then say: "I expect the number of newbs to more than double."
"I fail to completely understand the split infinitive rule."

I'm in complete agreement about "comprise," though.

[ Monday, April 24, 2006 12:29: Message edited by: wz. As ]

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Erika Maroonmark
Shock Trooper
Member # 5969
 written Monday, April 24 2006 12:22 Profile #8
quote:
Originally written by Charles Le Sorcier:

That's great. I can just ignore the rule and say I am using British English. If it causes anyone rancour, that's their problem. :P
*dies laughing* XD! *totally loves you*
Another convention I learned "wrong" (I have no idea how none of my elementary school teachers realised that they were teaching us the British way {think it's British, at least, because I have seen it in the real world, even though the MLA says it's wrong}) was the apostrophe used to make abbreviations and numbers plural. I leaned things like 1980's and CD's, but the MLA says you have to say 1980s and CDs. >>;;;
Yes, I have always lived in New York.
Another thing the MLA says (I think they changed it recently, because my ninth-grade English teacher was always talking about the MLA and told us differently about this) is that you should write things like "Dickens's", not "Dickens'". It still makes me cringe every time. XD

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Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Monday, April 24 2006 12:32 Profile Homepage #9
I am surprised that this has not been corrected yet: in American English, certain punctuation marks always go inside the quote (commas and periods), and certain ones always outside the quote (colons and semi-colons), and the others (question marks and exclamation marks) go inside or outside as in British English.

My source for this is the grammar book English Simplified. I cite it because this is an odd rule.

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Erika Maroonmark
Shock Trooper
Member # 5969
 written Monday, April 24 2006 13:12 Profile #10
How old is that book? Such things might be old-fashioned as well as British, and we're being taught in school now not to do them… although I remain a frequent perpetrator.
Just not on school assignments where "spelling counts". :)

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A C, an E-flat, and a G walk into the Tower of the Magi.
Ambrin walks up to them and says, "Hey! It's the Triad!"
Kelner snorts and says, "Pretty minor Triad if you ask me."
Posts: 242 | Registered: Thursday, June 16 2005 07:00
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Monday, April 24 2006 13:13 Profile Homepage #11
It's from the 1990's. The rule is legitimate.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Erika Maroonmark
Shock Trooper
Member # 5969
 written Monday, April 24 2006 13:25 Profile #12
Awesome. I shall have to start doing that more often. (This year's English teacher maintained that exclamation and question marks go inside, but she's also said several stupid and ridiculous things, so it now occurs to me that she might be wrong and somehow managed to have us convinced… :D )

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A C, an E-flat, and a G walk into the Tower of the Magi.
Ambrin walks up to them and says, "Hey! It's the Triad!"
Kelner snorts and says, "Pretty minor Triad if you ask me."
Posts: 242 | Registered: Thursday, June 16 2005 07:00
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
 written Monday, April 24 2006 13:33 Profile Homepage #13
I didn't know about colons and semicolons, although I don't think I've ever seen them come up. I've definitely been taught that the question marks always go inside, as strange as that position may be.

There are a number of different writing style authorities. I know at least one said that both Xs' and Xs's were acceptable and insisted that decades, acronyms, and single letters need an apostrophe to be pluralized. Decades and acronyms now generally seem to be mixed, although I prefer without the apostrophe to distinguish possession. I haven't seen anything that disagrees about single letters yet, and that makes sense. It's easy to distinguish A's from as but not as easy to distinguish As.

—Alorael, who has also settled on the use of non-direct quotation marks by the simple expedient of giving characters single quotes and strings double quotes. It works.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
The Immortal
BANNED
Member # 4
 written Monday, April 24 2006 15:13 Profile Homepage #14
I've always considered "s's" (ie, "Gus's") to be ugly and redundant.
And as for quotations, I almost always place punctuation inside of the quotation marks when the intention can be gleaned from context.

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Najosz Thjsza Kjras
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
 written Monday, April 24 2006 16:02 Profile #15
quote:
Originally written by Parody of Oneself:

In American English, the punctuation always goes inside the quotation marks at the end of the quote no matter how much it doesn't belong there.

Rupert says, "Hello, world."

I don't realize it, so I might ask a question:

Did Rupert say, "Hello, world?"

No, he didn't. He wasn't asking a question, but that's how it's written in America.

In the UK, punctuation only goes inside the quotation marks if it belongs in the quotation marks, so my question would be:

Did Rupert say, "Hello, world"?

[Edit: Sometimes, even with the best of "intentions," quotes can go "awry."]

—Alorael, who likes the UK's system much more. It mangles strings less. Actually, written language could adopt programming strings and make the quotes contain exactly the right punctuation inside the quotes and further punctuation outside the quotes. That would be much nicer.
I'm certain that is incorrect. I've never seen anyone write

quote:
Did Jason say "Hello, world?"
(I do that because framing it in quotes raises another nasty set of grammatical problems.)

The stuff in quotes is what the person said. So

quote:
Jason said, "Hello, world!"
would mean Jason excitedly said hello to the world, while
quote:
Jason said, "Hello, world"!
expresses shock at Jason greeting the world rather than enthusiasm on Jason's part.

Single quotes are used as part of certain possessives (NOT plurals), where they have a different name; otherwise, they are for quotes within quotes, as such:

Alorael said "Jason said 'Hello, world'!"

If you need more nesting than that, you're a communist.

...

On the subject of apostrophes (which is what single quotes are when they're not single quotes):

's happens when the possessor is single, or a type of plural that is weird and does not end with an s.

s' happens when there's a plural. Period. For singular words ending in s, the situation demands an ugly but nonetheless necessary s's. (You certainly wouldn't say "Gus bus", would you? No. You would say "Gusses bus", because it is supposed to be Gus's bus.)

Apostophes have nothing to do with determining whether a word is plural, by the way. "Apple's for sale" is an abomination, unless it's a slangish contraction of "The apple is for sale".

Of course, this is a restrictive grammar. I'm of the opinion this stuff only matters when you're trying to convey information; I am not one of those people who will actually consider

quote:

Fresh "Apple's"
hateful, because it's eye-catching and it conveys what it's supposed to in a way you can't do within the bounds of correct grammar.

Functionalism ftw.

EDIT: You do not write 1980's because it fits none of the qualifications for an apostrophe: it neither contracts anything (nineteen-eighties - the 'ies' is conveyed by 0s, and is simply a spelling peculiarity rather than a difference in sound) nor indicates possession (1987 is part of the 1980s, but it has nothing in particular to do with 1980 itself).

You do not write Dickens' because suppose the famous Dickens and his father owned something together - what would you say then, smart man? Not so clever now, are we?

[ Monday, April 24, 2006 16:06: Message edited by: The Worst Man Ever ]
Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
The Immortal
BANNED
Member # 4
 written Monday, April 24 2006 16:07 Profile Homepage #16
quote:
Originally written by The Worst Man Ever:

s' happens when there's a plural. Period. For singular words ending in s, the situation demands an ugly but nonetheless necessary s's. (You certainly wouldn't say "Gus bus", would you? No. You would say "Gusses bus", because it is supposed to be Gus's bus.)
Nice try at that whole "bass-ackwards logic" there, but since when has ANYTHING in English been written the way it is pronounced?

It is easier to say "gus-es," but it is ugler to write "gus's." I can tolerate "s's," but it's absolutely hideous on the eyes. (And for what it's worth, it also wastes a letter.)

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Najosz Thjsza Kjras
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
 written Monday, April 24 2006 16:11 Profile #17
I don't think it's ugly; it conveys what is said, and that's what apostrophes are FOR.

s' ALWAYS indicates a plural, by the way. 's can indicate a plural sometimes (women's shoes), but that's only because the language is screwy. Making s' ambiguous for aesthetic reasons - wholly artificial aesthetic reasons - is stupid.
Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
The Almighty Doer of Stuff
Shaper
Member # 73
 written Monday, April 24 2006 16:33 Profile #18
Let's say we have a boy named Frances. Frances owns some books. Would we write "Frances' books" or "Frances's books"? Many people would use the former, but that creates ambiguity. The latter clearly implies the books belong to Frances, while the former seems to say the books belong to more than one France, which is untrue.

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Law Bringer
Member # 335
 written Monday, April 24 2006 16:35 Profile Homepage #19
Alec, I'm reasonably sure that the punctuation in quotes rules you state are correct in the UK but not in the USA. Why? Because.

Whether or not the 1980's are a properly written decade now, they definitely were in the 1980s. Apostrophes were used to separate the pluralizing S from any non-word.

—Alorael, who thinks a fair compromise would be to call it Gu'ss bus.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Sturg
Master
Member # 4614
 written Monday, April 24 2006 17:55 Profile Homepage #20
Use s' to show possession of multiple instances of one thing. For example, "the car's door" refers to one car, while "the cars' doors" refers to the doors of multiple cars.

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Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Monday, April 24 2006 18:46 Profile Homepage #21
The rules that Alec quoted apply to exclamation marks and question marks, which is what he used as his examples. This, as I have said, I have on good authority. I can find other books that cite the rule if necessary, but I am sure that this is in fact the rule.

I am also in favor of using "Frances's" as the possessive of "Frances," because it is indeed pronounced that way. English orthography follows rules once you remember that we're talking about historical pronunciation, not current-day, and both indicate "Frances's" as the proper form.

Also, numerals (like any proper symbol, including individual letters) pluralize with an apostrophe. That is, if you see a 2 written on a wall, and then underneath it, you see another 2, you have seen two 2's.

[ Monday, April 24, 2006 18:49: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

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The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Tyranicus
Law Bringer
Member # 6489
 written Monday, April 24 2006 19:23 Profile Homepage #22
quote:
Originally written by The Worst Man Ever:

You do not write Dickens' because suppose the famous Dickens and his father owned something together - what would you say then, smart man? Not so clever now, are we?
I agree with you whole-heartedly about using 's for singular nouns ending in s. However, If Charles Dickens and his father owned something together, it would be Dickenses' :P

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Slarty
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
 written Monday, April 24 2006 20:40 Profile Homepage #23
Help help I'm being oppressed...

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Arancaytar
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
 written Tuesday, April 25 2006 01:33 Profile Homepage #24
quote:
Originally written by Drew:

I prefer the British method as well, though I still believe that those who split infinitives (as well as those who incorrectly use the verb "comprise") have a special place in Hell reserved for them.
When the hell does anyone say comprise anyway? The only place I distinctly remember seeing it in my nearly seven years of contact with English (as a native language) is at the top of the UBB page when a topic comprises more than one page.

--

I guess people easily mix up subject and object of the verb: "the topic is comprised of more than one page". It doesn't sound awkward, and I'm not the only one who judges grammar on instinct. :P

Edit: In fact, the three common English words

quote:
topic comprises pages
Are enough to bring up a UBB board as the first result of 8,000,000.

[ Tuesday, April 25, 2006 01:35: Message edited by: Nyarlathotep ]

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