"Policing" ourselves?
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Friday, April 21 2006 10:39
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Aran, considering the number of referencies to that thread here, I think it's important for people to see it in its original form (if for no other reason than to judge for themselves whether I am quoting Archmagus Micael out of context.) So could you please put the nazi thread back into public view. PS As for "a reason to equate antisemitism with criticism of Israel's foreign policy", I am not opposed to any criticism of Israel's foreign policy, as long as the critics can explain why they aren't aplying the same level of scrutiny to the Arab Sudan, African Nigeria, or any of the other African and Asian countries with equally, or, in many cases, more questionable policies. PPS And I agree that the point of this discussion should remain on whether it is wrong to compare Jews to Hitler, rather than discussing which modern country has the most questionable foreign policy. EDIT: Thank you. [ Friday, April 21, 2006 11:22: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Friday, April 21 2006 11:19
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quote:Done. -------------------- Encyclopaedia Ermariana • Forum Archives • Forum Statistics • RSS [Topic / Forum] My Blog • Polaris • I eat novels for breakfast. Polaris is dead, long live Polaris. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Friday, April 21 2006 11:26
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quote:I agree with both of you, however, I do not think that any fascist posted in this thread. I even have doubts about the five boys in Kansas. If we allow for an inflationary use of the "fascism" label, we only promote the ignorance about the real beast. If we just avoid the discussion, this is a form of indifference, i.e. the real evil according to E.Wiesel. I do think we need an open discussion about how to deal with such questions as OM's and it is possible without promoting Nazi-ideology. I would like to learn from this discussion and eagerly await comments by experienced oldbies. I do hope this discussion is possible here and needs not be thrown like a hot potato from TcoA to Polaris to Spidweb to Desperance. I do hope we can keep it so disciplined that this thread will not be closed or even deleted before I have been able to learn. Thank you, moderators, thank you, administrators, most of all, thank you, Jeff. [ Friday, April 21, 2006 11:28: Message edited by: Yet another procrastinator ] -------------------- The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference. Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine) Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4506
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written Friday, April 21 2006 11:27
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Sorry to anyone I may have offended, but it obviously didn't come across the way I tried to put it. Obviously Hitler was far worse, and the poor Jews shouldn't really have been the ones compared to him, but they were, and there's nothing that can be done about that. We just have to talk about the thing dispassionately, looking at the facts. If we're comparing Jews to Hitler, that's what we should do, and not argue about whether it's right to do so in something which isn't going anywhere near the press or any large amount of people. It's virtually pointless. No-one who matters will ever read it, so I don't see that it matters is we keep it entirely sane. And if you'll actually read the whole thing, it wasn't me that mentioned the Jews to start with, and this is as far as I mentioned them properly: quote:It also helps if you post the quotes in context, as many won't bother looking at it in that manner. - Archmagus Micael [ Friday, April 21, 2006 11:39: Message edited by: Archmagus Micael ] -------------------- "You dare Trifle with Avernum?" ~ Erika the Archmage -------------------- My Scenarios: Undead Valley : A small Undead problem, what could possibly go wrong? -------------------- Richard Black - PROOF of his existance (the Infernal one's website). -------------------- MY FORUM! Randomosity at it's highest! :) Posts: 1370 | Registered: Thursday, June 10 2004 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4445
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written Friday, April 21 2006 12:13
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quote:So the only thing that makes Hitler better than Bush is that he didn't restrain his urge to kill people? Bush is just Hitler without the balls? I'm sorry, I just couldn't let that go unchallenged by the entire Spiderweb community. I know people will do anything to sneak a dig on Bush, but let's keep it within the realm of reason, please. More on topic, a belligerent foreign policy was the only out that Germany had, what with how they were crippled by the Treaty of Versailles. Had Hitler built his fascism solely on nationalism instead of resorting to racism and genocide, he would probably be remembered as on par with Napoleon. Unfortunately, his charisma came from conviction, his conviction came from being utterly twisted, and the result was the Holocaust, one of history's greatest authorities. [ Friday, April 21, 2006 12:23: Message edited by: PoD person ] Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6193
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written Friday, April 21 2006 12:25
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Somehow I completely overlooked that remark, but now I'll add that I agree with PoD. I haven't seen any inclination from Bush to either a. commit genocide b. impose a single party government and silence all opposition(lord knows we've heard enough evidence that he doesn't practice censorship.) Hitler was a maniac. Bush has made some decisions that are controversial, but he isn't Hitler by a long shot. -------------------- Guaranteed to blow your mind. Frostbite: Get It While It's...... Hot? Posts: 900 | Registered: Monday, August 8 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, April 21 2006 12:28
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quote:While I basically agree with Erika's sentiments -- that a whole lot of people were screwed over because of the selfishness of foreign powers -- the above statement simply isn't true. The land now known as Israel, like all of the Middle East, has been occupied by a VAST number of different groups of people, spanning millenia. There were other people living there before. The above statement is comparable to saying "it's not as if the land in North America already belonged to someone else and they took it -- what is now the U.S. didn't belong to anyone." One group of people ended up displacing another group of people. Now, I don't mean to compare Jewish treatment of Arabs to American treatment of Native Americans -- the Americans definitely win that booby prize -- nor do I wish to fan the Jew vs. Arab flamewar. Both groups have endured a lot of persecution, and it really sucks for everyone. Let's just not pretend the British plan was perfect. It did cause a war, after all! -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4506
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written Friday, April 21 2006 12:35
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quote:You're right. Maybe I was letting my dislike for Bush cloud my senses. - Archmagus Micael -------------------- "You dare Trifle with Avernum?" ~ Erika the Archmage -------------------- My Scenarios: Undead Valley : A small Undead problem, what could possibly go wrong? -------------------- Richard Black - PROOF of his existance (the Infernal one's website). -------------------- MY FORUM! Randomosity at it's highest! :) Posts: 1370 | Registered: Thursday, June 10 2004 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Friday, April 21 2006 12:38
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quote:This comparison cannot be made without changing the whole setup of the "debate" including the venue. So in effect, raising this question will just shut down the discussion. I cannot believe that this is what you want, Micael. About the rest the quote that I deemphasized: I have not the slightest clue what you mean. You do not want to sidetrack the discussion about how everybody else misunderstands what you meant, do you? So please, could you try to express what you really mean? -------------------- The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference. Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine) Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4506
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written Friday, April 21 2006 12:45
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quote:What I was trying to say (don't know if I'll manage this time) is that no-one important will ever read what we write, so we don't have to keep what we talk about entirely on topic. And I have no intention of stopping the topic, I just don't want to get flamed or anything about what I've posted. I just want people to read it in proper context and stop bashing me about it. :mad: - Archmagus Micael -------------------- "You dare Trifle with Avernum?" ~ Erika the Archmage -------------------- My Scenarios: Undead Valley : A small Undead problem, what could possibly go wrong? -------------------- Richard Black - PROOF of his existance (the Infernal one's website). -------------------- MY FORUM! Randomosity at it's highest! :) Posts: 1370 | Registered: Thursday, June 10 2004 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4445
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written Friday, April 21 2006 13:39
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Yeah, it's time to lay off of Micael. The point has been made, let's chalk it up to a foot in the mouth and move on. I think a better direction to take this discussion is a comparison between Hitler and Stalin, which showed up on TCoA. It's obvious that Hitler's intentions were scarier. But is he scarier than Stalin? What is worse, someone so deranged that they want to commit genocide, but also deluded to the point of being self-destructive and incompetent, or someone coldly rational, for whom killing people is simply the means to most of his ends? Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, April 21 2006 14:15
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What's interesting is that we can have a three way comparison of Hitler, Stalin, and the Jews. Two are leaders who wielded more power than any leader should ever wield, and one is a group of fairly disparate people. Even if you restrict it to Jews in Israel it's still a very odd group. A fair comparison would be the Germans, the Soviets, and the Israelis. That isn't a meaningful comparison, so we can ignore it. —Alorael, who isn't sure who wins the worst person prize between Hitler and Stailn. Both men had goals, both men chose evil ways to try to accomplish those goals, and both killed millions of their own citizens. Stalin had a higher body count, but Hitler was more morally repugnant. Throw Mao into the mix and you get even more ethical fun. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6193
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written Friday, April 21 2006 15:00
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I don't think anyone was flaming Micael, but his statements were poorly worded and needed clarification. Now we should be past it. Hitler vs Stalin, lets see. Hitler hated the Jews (and many other groups) and set out to kill them. Stalin just didn't seem to value any life. He killed anyone who opposed communism and his regime, which is pretty standard in such set ups. However he also threw away loyal soldiers during world war II. Soldiers were looked at as practically meat, many were sent to battle without gear or even rifles, and no care was taken for their well-being. Hence the massive casualties suffered by the Soviets. They both were crazy, Hitler hated people he didn't think were Aryan, Stalin just didn't care who died as long as his ends were achieved. -------------------- Guaranteed to blow your mind. Frostbite: Get It While It's...... Hot? Posts: 900 | Registered: Monday, August 8 2005 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Friday, April 21 2006 18:25
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My Lord is it good to see more constructive discussion on this board. As a kosher hot dog eating American of English descent, I blame long dead rabbis (rather than the totality of the religious population) for some truly massive problems. It is obviously a Zionist plot to keep me from getting a better job and earning more money, thus ensuring that I stay in debt and subservient to the corporate juggernauts that dance with glee on my pain and misery. Don't people have more pressing things to be concerned about that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Amin, Attila, or any number of amateur geneticists? ... Furthermore! Referring to "Jews" as a cohesive unit that can be addressed as one is offensive to me and possible rascist. If you have problems with an individual (ie Hitler) you can identify that person. But don't go categorizing vast groups of people as this or that. Just don't. ... Any bets on how soon I'll come to my senses and delete this whole thing? -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Friday, April 21 2006 18:27
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What seems to have been lost in this discussion was that while the Holocaust refers to the 6 million Jews exterminated by Hitler another 5 million people were exterminated also by Hitler. Any group that didn't fit in with Hitler's master race was to be eliminated: Gypsies, mentally retarded, handicapped, etc. That other groups would be next will never be known, but there were probalbly others that were spared because their homelands weren't occupied. Stalin kill millions trying to achieve his view of the world. You also have Mao with his revolution, the genocide in Sudan of Black Africans by Arabs, etc. Isreal is in a defensive situation. Outnumbered and surrounded it is trying to prevent its destruction. If you doubt that Hamas, Fatah, and any other Arab group wants the complete elimination of Isreal just read their own web sites. The original land of Isreal established by the United Nations consisted mostly of land owned by Jews. For all the land "taken" from Palestinians by war, more land was lost by Jews in Arab lands. If there was true oeace negotiations this would come out. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, April 21 2006 21:47
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*facepalm* It's astonishing how much misinformation there is out there, particularly about the pre-Israel status of the land that is now Israel. It was definitely inhabited, and it was definitely inhabited mostly by Muslims. Indeed, the primary problem right now preventing peace (other than boundary-drawing) is the question of what to do with the Palestinian refugees driven out by Jewish settlers at one time or another, and there's a LOT of them. That's not a value judgment on the actions of the Israelis Jews as a whole, but simply a statement of a demographic fact. As has been mentioned, it's rather impossible to compare Hitler, Stalin, and the Jews. It's possible, however, to compare Hitler, Stalin, and Ben-Gurion, and in that comparison, Ben-Gurion comes out more than an order of magnitude better. Hitler was responsible for the execution of 11 million, Stalin for 20-25 million. Ben-Gurion was responsible for the creation of perhaps as many as 1 million refugees, but altogether not many deaths. What I find most interesting about the story of the 1948 war is that other Arabs sold out the Palestinians just as much as they fought against Israel. Also, I'd hesitate before taking Middle Eastern political leaders at their word with regard to Israel; if we can doubt that Bush's primary motivation in starting the Iraq War was to spread democracy, then we can doubt that every last Muslim would be willing to join in war against Israel tomorrow if the opportunity presented itself. EDIT: And anyone who thinks that Hitler was "not such a bad guy" is either grossly underinformed or viciously racist. [ Friday, April 21, 2006 21:51: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Friday, April 21 2006 22:24
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... Israel was empty? The heck? -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Friday, April 21 2006 23:03
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quote:Agree. Let me come back to my question: How can we lead a somewhat rational debate and disperse information that can be trusted by otherwise "silent followers" (the default title on TCoA). Strategic noncommunication is no winning strategy.(Do no take that personally, Erika). From OM's and "Wizard"'s posts on TCoA I cannot believe yet that they are vicious racists. Shutting down the discussion - whether by closing the forum, by coming down on the kids like a wall of bricks, or by purely evasive requests to keep it "clean" is a form of indifference, the epitome of evil, imho. Sending them off into a corner as fire-breathing racial bigots, devious purveyors of blatant falsehoods or wild-eyed conspiracy theorists could just be advertised as proof of a conspiracy. I did try to engage in a discussion of content with my ("Phen") reply on that Nazi thread and my escalation by initiating this thread here - but somehow this has been drowned out by the attitude expressed by Micael (sorry, it is not only you but you said it most concisely) quote:It does matter, imho, and mostly so for OM, "Wizard" et al, I hope. As a German, I also have a special interest in drawing such discussion on to the broader marketplace, precisely because of experiences abroad like the one told by this German exchange student in Montreal. [ Saturday, April 22, 2006 01:12: Message edited by: Yet another procrastinator ] -------------------- The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference. Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine) Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Saturday, April 22 2006 05:37
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Well, this brings me back to an issue dear to my heart: telling the truth in schools. There is a movement right now to prevent teachers from giving their students full and accurate information, since such information may not be viewed as compatible with a certain political or religious viewpoint (i.e., intelligent design instead of evolution, abstinence-only instead of a complete sex-ed program, etc.). I think that it is a terrible idea to tell teachers that they can't tell students all the facts. Getting specific again, I think that the Holocaust must be covered in every high school. People should know not just that Hitler "hated the Jews," but also that he slaughtered 6 million Jews and 5 million others, and people should get some sense of what that means. The "Final Solution" was in place for just about six years, during which the Central European Jewish community experienced the equivalent of a 9/11 every day. For six years. People need to understand the Holocaust, because people need to understand what genocide is, so that when someone tries to bring about another one (Darfur), we can unite to stop it. We can fight ignorance is with facts. Almost no one who actually understands what happened in Germany under the Nazis can truly feel that it should happen again. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 6670
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written Saturday, April 22 2006 08:57
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Kelandon: Come to Canada. American fundamentalists are (TRYING TO) removing evolution from schools? As a stout believer in intelligent design, I greatly oppose this motion. Intelligent design requires intelligent arguments, and removing the teaching of evolution from schools will lead to even more students not being able to coherently argue against it. (Don't get me wrong, I don't think evolution should be preached at schools as the infallible gospel truth. But it is a major theory that still thrives today, so it should be presented.) EDIT: Added the all-important "TRYING TO" in my post. Yipes, forgetting them made a big difference. -------------------- (And what, they gloss over the Holocaust in America? Grrr, it's not even noon yet and I've met my quota of America-bashing.) [ Saturday, April 22, 2006 11:18: Message edited by: Dintiradan ] Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6193
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written Saturday, April 22 2006 09:07
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Removing evolution from schools? That would be pretty ironic, since I go to a Catholic high school (shudders) and they teach evolution. -------------------- Guaranteed to blow your mind. Frostbite: Get It While It's...... Hot? Posts: 900 | Registered: Monday, August 8 2005 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4506
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written Saturday, April 22 2006 09:10
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quote:Is that legal? If it is, how can it be? - Archmagus Micael -------------------- "You dare Trifle with Avernum?" ~ Erika the Archmage -------------------- My Scenarios: Undead Valley : A small Undead problem, what could possibly go wrong? -------------------- Richard Black - PROOF of his existance (the Infernal one's website). -------------------- MY FORUM! Randomosity at it's highest! :) Posts: 1370 | Registered: Thursday, June 10 2004 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Saturday, April 22 2006 09:54
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I think it's worse than not "telling the truth in schools." Dishonesty and not wanting all the facts out is in all level of society. And I've come to the conclusion that schools and education aren't valued at all, since that's the message I'm getting from the local, state, and national level. Whenever Dikiyoba hears someone say "Education is important," Dikiyoba hears "So long as I don't have to pay for it." Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6193
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written Saturday, April 22 2006 09:59
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I suppose its legal, supressing ideas that are controversial is as American as Thanksgiving or NASCAR. That doesn't mean that taking something out of school curriculum because one group doesn't like it is good. -------------------- Guaranteed to blow your mind. Frostbite: Get It While It's...... Hot? Posts: 900 | Registered: Monday, August 8 2005 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Saturday, April 22 2006 10:06
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I wonder what is lacking to tap the enormous info of the internet to supply interested students with adequately arranged starting points. The data may be overwhelming, not bite-sized, or just unrelated to any community of peers. All of these bottle-necks need not be. How about compiling a list of member-rated links that would not get lost by the periodic purges? Something between a FAQ and e.g. this. Far from an encyclopedia. It need not be hosted or linked from spidweb - apart from the common signature links. At least, it would not be the n+1st futile attempt to compete with this forum but rather complement it. There is suitable social knowledgebase software around and making a small contribution might give us a better feeling of attention and recogniion than a post count. What do you think? Are you aware of anything similar that is operative already? [ Saturday, April 22, 2006 19:36: Message edited by: Yet another procrastinator ] -------------------- The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference. Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine) Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |