Geneforging
| Author | Topic: Geneforging |
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Skip to My Lou
Member # 40
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written Tuesday, April 4 2006 11:16
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Genetic engineering, on the scale and to the purposes depicted in the Geneforge games, is quickly moving towards science fact. A few thought to consider, derived from these articles: Hybrids "What new subhuman combination should be produced and for what purpose? At what point would it be considered human? And what rights, if any, should it have?" Transgenics "The trait became a permanent feature of the mice's genome and was passed along to many of their offspring." Dangers and Controls "Now Buller has engineered a mousepox strain that kills 100 per cent of vaccinated mice, even when they were also treated with the antiviral drug cidofovir." "Are there types of research results that will be so incredibly dangerous that they will make it too easy for nefarious groups to harm others on a massive scale?" New Species "Venter has a lot of other ideas that force a change of thinking. One is the notion of creating new species." "That level of biological engineering isn't possible today...But Venter thinks we will create synthetic genomes in a matter of years, not decades." Human Enhancement "No more blind people. A world where every male is six inches taller if he chooses to be. The ability to concentrate longer..." And Wikipedia on Genetic Engineering and Human Genetic Engineering. Are we moving into the world of Geneforge? Should we? -------------------- Take the Personality Test! Deep down, you wish you were a stick figure. Posts: 1629 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Tuesday, April 4 2006 14:06
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We've been "genetically engineering" for thousands of years. We've created new and better breeds of crops and animals by selecting and breeding the specimens show the most promise. Before, genetic engineering was trial and error (and up until fairly recently, genes weren't understood). Now we have the techniques to do it faster, more purposefully, and with more options than ever before. In a way, we've always been in the world of Geneforge. It's just that we've been in the pre-Geneforge/canister era. Now we're in the "research on Sucia Island" era. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Tuesday, April 4 2006 14:07
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quote:I haven't read the articles, but surely after-the-fact genetic engineering like this would be impossible? I'm not opposed to genetic engineering in principle, but I don't think it will be safe enough for use on humans for a long time. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, April 4 2006 14:20
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quote:Interestingly, no. Human growth hormone is already capable of making people bigger, although has side-effects. Gene therapy combined with hormone therapy has the potential to make people taller without such strong side-effects. (EDIT: By the way, it's not unprecedented to go into someone's genes and change them after a person has been born. Viruses do this all the time, and that's how immunization works.) And like Ash, I have no problem with genetic engineering in principle, but I do have concerns about safety. The possibilities involved are incredible: we may be able to cure AIDS, for instance, and develop much stronger cancer-fighting techniques. Because of the potential, we must continue researching. However, we may not see safely usable results for a long time, and, until we do, we should follow the normal standards for human testing (basically, don't do it until you have strong medical reason to believe that it is safe). [ Tuesday, April 04, 2006 14:27: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Tuesday, April 4 2006 20:41
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quote:Finally- a scientific method of penile enhancement. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, April 4 2006 21:46
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I admit that I attempted to visualize a way in which enhancement of that nature would make someone taller. The least bad idea that I came up with is that a person might spend most of his time lying flat on his back. The other ideas I had are, well, best not mentioned. [ Tuesday, April 04, 2006 21:47: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Tuesday, April 4 2006 21:49
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If you take the term "dickhead" literally, it could happen. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6912
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written Tuesday, April 4 2006 22:07
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There is a cool game on this called Invisible War I think it lays things out pretty well. If every one is modified and has all the good traits (smart, strong, good immune system) we increase efficiency but in many ways sacrifice individuality. I am totally cool with the trade off but I can understand why ppl fear this so much. I am totally cool with modifying animals I am looking forward to a SW fan scientist making giant intelligent friendly talking spiders Posts: 89 | Registered: Wednesday, March 15 2006 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, April 5 2006 08:13
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If everyone is six inches taller and 50 IQ points smarter, the ranges don't change, so individuality isn't lost. Adding an average of six inches and 50 points could increase or decrease diversity, depending on the distribution, but I still don't see any loss of individuality. I have heard horrific predictions of genetic superhumans and subclasses where the wealthy become an entirely different subspecies or even species. That's a little extreme for the present and needs more consideration before it can be categorically labeled disastrous. —Alorael, who has ethical qualms with preventing anyone from becoming "superhuman" because not everyone can. Enforced mediocrity isn't a good thing. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6912
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written Wednesday, April 5 2006 09:54
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Well this is kind of what happens in invisible war. Every race(humans) have a genetic potential limit. You can only be so smart and you can only be so strong. If you max those straits out everyone you end up losing a good portion of a person’s individuality. Think about it 6 inches 50 IQ points…why stop there? Why not go as far as you can? Well i guess you would want 2 stop when u reach a certain hight but the smarter the better as far as i see it. Posts: 89 | Registered: Wednesday, March 15 2006 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2238
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written Wednesday, April 5 2006 11:49
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quote:You mean Deus Ex. The crappy "sequel", Invisible War, is not a cool game. Go play the original, you'll be happy you did. -------------------- DEMON PLAY, DEMON OUT! Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, April 5 2006 13:36
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quote:Smart people can be really different from each other, you know. And intelligence isn't just on a 1 to 10 scale, something that can be "maxed out." quote:Because if you make people too much taller, they die. And one would have to redesign the brain completely in order to make people smarter beyond a certain point. These things are a little bit more complicated that most people realize. Eye color is really easy to pick out, genetically: there's a distinct chromosome and distinct genes that control it. Height and intelligence are very hard, because they're a combination of many, many genes and several environmental factors. Intelligence is not terribly well-defined scientifically anyway. Measuring someone's intelligence is rather harder and more controversial than most have been led to believe. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3441
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written Wednesday, April 5 2006 13:58
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Personally, I think there are better ways to become intelligent than gene therapy. Things such as growing up in an atmosphere of intellectual curiosity, learning to play a musical instrument, visiting an other country or learning a foreign language. Don't mess with the brain. It's quite good as it is. -------------------- "As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it." --Albert Einstein -------------------- Posts: 536 | Registered: Sunday, September 7 2003 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Wednesday, April 5 2006 14:37
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quote: quote:? -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, April 5 2006 14:51
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What I was getting at is this: because it's rather hard to put a non-controversially specific number on someone's intelligence, you can't just make everyone a 10 on the intelligence scale, but since there are physical limitations on the human body, you also can't simply make someone many orders of magnitude more intelligent than other people. EDIT: Here we go. There isn't a definite maximum for intelligence, but it's not like you can just keep going up, either. [ Wednesday, April 05, 2006 16:16: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Wednesday, April 5 2006 15:05
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quote:Too little, too late- unless you believe in capitalist myths. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
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written Wednesday, April 5 2006 15:14
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quote:And this is why I'm glad he's back. Did you mean too little forced mediocrity? -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2238
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written Wednesday, April 5 2006 15:28
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quote:Nay. Capitalist lies. -------------------- DEMON PLAY, DEMON OUT! Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Wednesday, April 5 2006 15:30
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Myths are lies. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2238
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written Wednesday, April 5 2006 16:38
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quote:Well that depends on who you ask. Regardless, I think we agree capitalist pigs are teh suck. -------------------- DEMON PLAY, DEMON OUT! Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Thursday, April 6 2006 17:36
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Genetic engineering is actually quite different from breeding, even though the effect of breeding is to modify genetics. Breeding is Darwinian. Genetic engineering is creationist. The other big thing to realize about genetic technology is that it isn't just about changing genes. It's about figuring out how organisms work, by figuring out what their genes do. Genes by themselves don't do anything. Their presence in cell nuclei makes different kinds of proteins form, and the proteins drift off and make things happen. So if you know what proteins do what, you could try to just inject them. Well, Thuryl could probably have given this more authoritatively. But I believe these are basically accurate points. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, April 6 2006 17:53
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Genes encode series of amino acids that form proteins. Transplanting a gene from one animal to another won't necessarily have any effects, because it's quite possible that a "smart" gene needs a special receptor we lack. Genes are complicated things. Scientists can also analyze our current proteins and the like and decide on the protein structures most likely to have a desired effect. That's an enormously difficult task, though, and it's made even more complicated by the fact that there's no easy way to guess how a protein will fold in three dimensions from its amino acid sequence. Virtual protein folding is a major processing task (often accomplished by distributed computing!). Folding is influenced by the amino acids, the solution, and other molecules near the protein. One day we may decide what protein is right for a task, how to assemble such a protein, and then either mass produce it in factory cells for injection or splice genes for the protein into ourselves. Craig Venter may believe that customized genomes are likely in the near future, but there are significant barriers to overcome first. So, now we either have hybridization to create chimeras with transgenic (mixed) genomes or ordinary organisms with artificially designed genomes. The former is ethically problematic. The latter has results that could be achieved by breeding. The difference, of course, is that breeding effects subsequent generations and involves a significant element of randomness. It's a statistics-dependent, long term project. Altering the genome of a living organism is like getting the desired breeding results immediately in a current generation. If eugenics and human breeding weren't considered dangerous and often evil, non-chimeric genetic engineering wouldn't be an ethical problem at all. Those are most definitely issues, though, so we're left to decide the rights and wrongs of customized people. —Alorael, who isn't terribly afraid of customized, non-transgenic genomes. The potential for great things is very real, and the potential dangers are far more hypothetical. Yes, they deserve attention, but until genome alteration becomes commonplace there is little opportunity to cause disaster. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Thursday, April 6 2006 19:40
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The problem with genetically modified humans is that some alterations could have negative consequencies that aren't obvious or take many years to be seen. We already have this problem with drugs (Viox scandal is the most recent example) and it would get even worse with genetic modifications whose effects aren't fully understood. What happens if a gene that seems to improve ability to quickly memorize large amount of data also increases risk of Alzeimers? Do you think any company will run a 50-year-long clinical trial to check for any potential problems over subject's lifetime? This reasoning is of course irrelevant in case of incurable deseases like Multiple Sclerocis, where the patient will not even live 50 (or even 20) years unless he gets help now. However, alterations that simply improve memory, strength, reaction time, and so on, shouldn't happen until our understanding of human body is far more complete than it is today. Unfortunately, people will likely jump at these "miracle techniques" long before they are ready. As for genetically modified food, I have no problems with it. PS About the examples mentioned in original post, why would we want to make every man 6 inches taller? If everybody becomes 6 inches taller, it just increases the average and people who were short before will still remain shorter than average. Same thing with increasing strength or endurance. (Daily tasks of anybody who is likely to be able to afford genetic modification don't require much strength or endurance.) -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Friday, April 7 2006 10:06
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quote:In this spirit, I believe that a lot of radical genetic technology will inevitably be developed and deployed. As somebody once said, you cannot unring a bell. There will be miracles and wonders, and there will be problems. Everything will change, as usual. Og looks at the rocks that made the sparks, and thinks about putting them down. As if. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |