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AuthorTopic: Music
Bob's Big Date
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listening to music full of words with crude and obscene connotations will, inarguably, fill your mind with crudity and obscenity.

See, here's the problem: I'd dispute your impact (a) logically following from your warrant and (b) actually outweighing the cost of removing invective from society. In other words, I find the blanket claim that dirty words engender dirty thoughts spurious, and compared to suppressing the power of language...

In the vast majority of cases, even should you not personally view such words in such a manner, your knowledge and experience, through a lifetime of interacting with those who do view them in such a manner, does, to at least a very small extent, plant within your mind a hint of such connotations.

I am reminded of a famous work of Donne here - Not My Will, But Thine. Every time I've had a discussion over it, those who should agree with its message most consider it an illegitimate expression of faith because Donne speaks of being ravaged by the Deity (this is 16th-century, mind - it's not new or anything). When confronted with the idea that there exists divinity in even the carnal act, they bandy about words like 'vulgar' and 'inappropriate'.

I do not understand the contempt for the crude, vulgar, and obscene. It's as much a part of life as anything, and removing your ability to express it - condemn it, invoke it, paeanize it, whatever - is hideously stultifying to diction and spirit.

---

Now, I buy the argument that listening to cursing leads one to curse more freely, because it makes sense. However, there seems to be a general presumption on the behalf of those who are pointing it out (i.e. ben) that cursing is, in and of itself, a bad thing. I mean, an analogy to smoking is made, but we don't smoke because Smoking is Bad(TM); we avoid it because it causes physical damage.

But then again, I suppose that's what happens when your moral complex relies on an outside locus of control - i.e. what you DO and DO NOT do basically boils down to a cosmic rolled-up newspaper, and there exists no internal authority.

---

I'm sure you see an obvious difference. Though this is a rather extreme example, it demonstrates the point. Not only does the first person just seem like a better person, but you can tell that he's obviously less likely to go to jail, get in trouble at school, and upset people. Furthermore, these people can be interpreted as good, God-fearing people also. Truly, Christians are often stereotyped as good and gentle people, that is to say, just by talking to someone, you can generally tell if they're a Christian or not. But I know this is religion again, so you may not believe me there.

Hmm. Wrong:
a) 'Good, god-fearing' are an oxymoron. Those who fear God are more inclined to hate His creation and consider it evil.
b) What's preventing someone who curses like a sailor from being godly? I mean, God never actually prohibits it (except for taking His name in vain, of course - so no shouting the secret name of God to the cosmos) in any way.
c) You could make the case, I guess, that the swearing party is non-godly (based on what scripture, I have to wonder?), but that doesn't mean, conversely, that the non-swearing party is. Removing curse words from Hitler's private vocabulary wouldn't have solved much from a moral perspective.
d) I suppose by what you consider Christian, you could tell from talking to someone - but that's because your brand of Christianity has a particular and pervasive pushiness to it that I find absurdly unpleasant.
e) I'd hardly think Christians are stereotyped as good and gentle; we're hardly qualified to stereotype ourselves, and in communities where we are not in the absurd majority (some immigrants, Jews, etc.) we're actually stereotyped as obnoxious, pushy, viciously exclusionary, and sometimes just outright mean-spirited.

Really, I think your problem here is twofold:
a) You associate 'good' strongly with 'Christian'. I do not hesitate to remind you that plenty of Christians have been true SOBs, and plenty of icons of righteousness have been non-Christians (Torquemada; Gandhi).
b) Your definition of good action and bad action is defined exclusively by an authoritarian schema. You believe God tells you cursing is wrong, therefore it's anti-Christian and being anti-Christian is punishment enough for you, so you refrain from swearing.
c) Amusingly enough, you believe God has - in Christianity, at least - had anything to say about profanity, outside of the big no-no of profaning God Himself. Perhaps it would suit you to read your Bible sometime; you sure do put an awful lot of stock for someome who gets their knowledge of it from hearsay.

I would agree that Christianity should be a search for goodness, and its ultimate aim should be ultimate good, but you don't auto-magically achieve that by quivering before the cosmic rolled-up newspaper (man, I like that one - I'm going to write it down). There has to be an active search. I'm not convinced cursing is part of that.

[ Tuesday, May 24, 2005 15:32: Message edited by: Custer XVI ]

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For the first point, it seems likely to me that the words you consciously attach certain connotations to would also have such connotations attached subconsciously. Or at the very least upon movement of the words from subconscious to conscious the connotations would then be attached. It is proven that the words you listen to, knowingly or not, are the words that will be in your head. If such words have offensive connotation for you, you will have offensiveness inside your head.

As to the second quote, admittedly, it was poorly phrased and not the best thought out of my arguments. Perhaps this would be a good way to amend it: Say you know that many people think a word is bad. Contained within your knowledge of the word and the connotations you associate with it is the knowledge that many people believe it to be bad. Thus, as you use or hear the word, on some level you would recognize that fact, meaning not that you would have their negative connotations forced upon your mind, but that the word within your mind would create an argument and necessitate the decision, on some level, whether you agree or not. Basically, knowing some disapprove of the word makes it more complex within your mind and it is now "tainted". The meaning and connotation you attach to it, however simple, is now added upon. By knowing some disapprove, it is no longer just a word and is now also a decision to agree or not. While this is true of all words you hear a new meaning or connotation for, this decision is generally more prominent because it is, for most, a matter of choosing black or white and not deciding to adopt a minor alteration of meaning or clarification. Your knowledge has, sometimes at least, turned these particular words into decisions or the affirmation of a decision already made.

Next, I never said that such words should be removed from language. As I said, The fact of the matter is there will always be people who wish to voice their thoughts in a crude and obscene manner. Thus there will always be words with such connotations and also people who do not wish to hear them. I acknowledge that such things will always be around and am not saying we should try to eradicate them from language. If you wish to convey your thoughts in an obscene manner, it is none of my business unless you are forcing me to hear it.

Personally, I am of the opinion that there is godliness in “the carnal act” as you put it. However, there is having sex and there is committing adultery. A clear difference depending upon your beliefs. While you may not think there is anything wrong with adultery, please respect my belief and don’t do it with me.

I was going to further argue with Ben, but you sort of beat me to it and I don’t have the time at the moment. Next time I’ll be more careful to clarify my support of concepts, not people.

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quote:
Originally written by N00BEN:

I'm sure you see an obvious difference. Though this is a rather extreme example, it demonstrates the point. Not only does the first person just seem like a better person, but you can tell that he's obviously less likely to go to jail, get in trouble at school, and upset people. Furthermore, these people can be interpreted as good, God-fearing people also. Truly, Christians are often stereotyped as good and gentle people, that is to say, just by talking to someone, you can generally tell if they're a Christian or not. But I know this is religion again, so you may not believe me there. :rolleyes:
...I just have to say, even for you, this has been an incredibly repugnant statement. Even for what I expect out of you, this goes well beyond that.

But hey! At least you didn't use cuss-words. I guess that makes your blatant egotism okey-dokey.

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I haven't been reading most of the long posts because they're really boring. But after glancing over the quote above I'd have to agree with TM.

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quote:
Originally written by Custer XVI:

listening to music full of words with crude and obscene connotations will, inarguably, fill your mind with crudity and obscenity.

See, here's the problem: I'd dispute your impact (a) logically following from your warrant and (b) actually outweighing the cost of removing invective from society. In other words, I find the blanket claim that dirty words engender dirty thoughts spurious, and compared to suppressing the power of language...


This is not to say that these words should be taken out of our language; I know people will continue to use them, but frequent use of such strong words as those in a vulgar way is not very appealing to all that have to listen to it every day.

In the vast majority of cases, even should you not personally view such words in such a manner, your knowledge and experience, through a lifetime of interacting with those who do view them in such a manner, does, to at least a very small extent, plant within your mind a hint of such connotations.

I am reminded of a famous work of Donne here - Not My Will, But Thine. Every time I've had a discussion over it, those who should agree with its message most consider it an illegitimate expression of faith because Donne speaks of being ravaged by the Deity (this is 16th-century, mind - it's not new or anything). When confronted with the idea that there exists divinity in even the carnal act, they bandy about words like 'vulgar' and 'inappropriate'.


Which are words commonly used to describe cuss words. And in most cases, they are vulgar and inappropriate.

I do not understand the contempt for the crude, vulgar, and obscene. It's as much a part of life as anything, and removing your ability to express it - condemn it, invoke it, paeanize it, whatever - is hideously stultifying to diction and spirit.

Eh, there's always other ways to express your emotions at the moment than cussing.

---

Now, I buy the argument that listening to cursing leads one to curse more freely, because it makes sense. However, there seems to be a general presumption on the behalf of those who are pointing it out (i.e. ben) that cursing is, in and of itself, a bad thing. I mean, an analogy to smoking is made, but we don't smoke because Smoking is Bad(TM); we avoid it because it causes physical damage.


And cussing can cause mental damage. I think that just the fact that someone is cussing therefore implies some level of mental damage. Then when they cuss, other people's heads get filled with cuss words, and they start to include cuss words into the way they think and eventually the way they talk. Cussing can be kind of contagious in the same way as things like smoking and drugs are stereotyped as "cool" in the minds of a few young people.

Oh, and just because I'm saying it doesn't mean it's totally wrong and not worth believing. :P

But then again, I suppose that's what happens when your moral complex relies on an outside locus of control - i.e. what you DO and DO NOT do basically boils down to a cosmic rolled-up newspaper, and there exists no internal authority.

Right, and personal beliefs ie. Christianity can have a lot to do with it too.

---

I'm sure you see an obvious difference. Though this is a rather extreme example, it demonstrates the point. Not only does the first person just seem like a better person, but you can tell that he's obviously less likely to go to jail, get in trouble at school, and upset people. Furthermore, these people can be interpreted as good, God-fearing people also. Truly, Christians are often stereotyped as good and gentle people, that is to say, just by talking to someone, you can generally tell if they're a Christian or not. But I know this is religion again, so you may not believe me there.

Hmm. Wrong:
a) 'Good, god-fearing' are an oxymoron. Those who fear God are more inclined to hate His creation and consider it evil.


God-fearing is a common synonym in the Christian world for worshipping and revering God. It does not mean to be afraid of him.

b) What's preventing someone who curses like a sailor from being godly? I mean, God never actually prohibits it (except for taking His name in vain, of course - so no shouting the secret name of God to the cosmos) in any way.

It never says in the Bible that you can't use cuss words, and it certainly doesn't list any words one should never use, unless maybe using God in an ungodly context. Most Christians just see that cussing is a vulgar and a bad habit to have and it just generally goes against their life's standard of being a Christian person. Just because the Bible doesn't say doing some such thing is wrong, if it still seems wrong, true Christians will try to avoid doing it.

c) You could make the case, I guess, that the swearing party is non-godly (based on what scripture, I have to wonder?), but that doesn't mean, conversely, that the non-swearing party is. Removing curse words from Hitler's private vocabulary wouldn't have solved much from a moral perspective.

I agree that just because you don't cuss, you are not necessarily a Christian, and just because you cuss doesn't mean you're non-Christian. It's just general that a Christian doesn't usually cuss and a non-Christian is more likely to pick it up.

d) I suppose by what you consider Christian, you could tell from talking to someone - but that's because your brand of Christianity has a particular and pervasive pushiness to it that I find absurdly unpleasant.

It's in our religion to spread the good news (that Christ died for our sins), and we should strive to set an example for all non-Christians and be as much like Christ as we can. Not to say that Christians are perfect - no one is - but we try to get closer to perfect.

Being told about Christianity or just being excessively nice to by someone else can be rather uncomforting, especially on your conscience, but you know almost by instinct if what you're doing is right or wrong. One question is just whether or not to believe your instincts (or conscience, if you will) or beleive something else, maybe because other people believe it, it's easier, or something.

e) I'd hardly think Christians are stereotyped as good and gentle; we're hardly qualified to stereotype ourselves, and in communities where we are not in the absurd majority (some immigrants, Jews, etc.) we're actually stereotyped as obnoxious, pushy, viciously exclusionary, and sometimes just outright mean-spirited.

How do you stereotype Christians, then? ben-like Republicans? You'd have to agree that most Christians are not perverse or mean. In fact, the better you get to know God, the more your actions tend to take this direction.

Really, I think your problem here is twofold:
a) You associate 'good' strongly with 'Christian'. I do not hesitate to remind you that plenty of Christians have been true SOBs, and plenty of icons of righteousness have been non-Christians (Torquemada; Gandhi).


Many people who claim to be Christians are just "believe in God just enough to get to heaven" people. They try to set a balance between drinking and other activities but believe in God just so they can go to heaven when they die. Needless to say, these people are not devoted Christians and don't have much backup for their claim. True Christians always strive to become better Christians.

b) Your definition of good action and bad action is defined exclusively by an authoritarian schema. You believe God tells you cursing is wrong, therefore it's anti-Christian and being anti-Christian is punishment enough for you, so you refrain from swearing.

Though God does not directly say, "Swearing is bad! Don't ever do it or else!" as I said, people see that swearing isn't a good thing to practice and refrain from it.

c) Amusingly enough, you believe God has - in Christianity, at least - had anything to say about profanity, outside of the big no-no of profaning God Himself. Perhaps it would suit you to read your Bible sometime; you sure do put an awful lot of stock for someome who gets their knowledge of it from hearsay.

I have already touched on this in earlier responses, so I don't feel the need to repeat myself too much here.

I would agree that Christianity should be a search for goodness, and its ultimate aim should be ultimate good, but you don't auto-magically achieve that by quivering before the cosmic rolled-up newspaper (man, I like that one - I'm going to write it down). There has to be an active search. I'm not convinced cursing is part of that.

There is an active search - life. Refraining from profanity is one of the things that can help with this search, making your mind clearer and your motives better.



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quote:
And cussing can cause mental damage. I think that just the fact that someone is cussing therefore implies some level of mental damage. Then when they cuss, other people's heads get filled with cuss words, and they start to include cuss words into the way they think and eventually the way they talk. Cussing can be kind of contagious in the same way as things like smoking and drugs are stereotyped as "cool" in the minds of a few young people.
Are you so mindless and malleable that whatever anyone says dominates your thoughts and becomes part of who you are? I hear people swear a lot, and I very rarely do so myself. Not all people are sheep; some are actually capable of not being compelled to adhere to others life choices. Swearing is not a sign of mental damage, as someone mentioned earlier it could simply be the way or place the person was brought up.

quote:
How do you stereotype Christians, then? ben-like Republicans? You'd have to agree that most Christians are not perverse or mean. In fact, the better you get to know God, the more your actions tend to take this direction.
All I'll say about this is Christians tend to have a very unflattering “holier than thou” attitude.

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quote:
And cussing can cause mental damage. I think that just the fact that someone is cussing therefore implies some level of mental damage.
With all due respect, what you think doesn't count for much on its own. Please cite evidence for your contention from a reputable medical journal.

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quote:
Originally written by N00BEN:

quote:
Originally written by Custer XVI:

listening to music full of words with crude and obscene connotations will, inarguably, fill your mind with crudity and obscenity.

See, here's the problem: I'd dispute your impact (a) logically following from your warrant and (b) actually outweighing the cost of removing invective from society. In other words, I find the blanket claim that dirty words engender dirty thoughts spurious, and compared to suppressing the power of language...


This is not to say that these words should be taken out of our language; I know people will continue to use them, but frequent use of such strong words as those in a vulgar way is not very appealing to all that have to listen to it every day.

So? I'm arguing that even in *personal* cases, marginalizing swearing has no non-external positive (e.g. yes, there's social conventions, but that's assuming society is right to believe 'screw you' is worse than 'you have five fathers, and not a one is human') and a real negative (suppressing linguistic flexibility).
quote:

In the vast majority of cases, even should you not personally view such words in such a manner, your knowledge and experience, through a lifetime of interacting with those who do view them in such a manner, does, to at least a very small extent, plant within your mind a hint of such connotations.

I am reminded of a famous work of Donne here - Not My Will, But Thine. Every time I've had a discussion over it, those who should agree with its message most consider it an illegitimate expression of faith because Donne speaks of being ravaged by the Deity (this is 16th-century, mind - it's not new or anything). When confronted with the idea that there exists divinity in even the carnal act, they bandy about words like 'vulgar' and 'inappropriate'.


Which are words commonly used to describe cuss words. And in most cases, they are vulgar and inappropriate.

Yes, and?
quote:

I do not understand the contempt for the crude, vulgar, and obscene. It's as much a part of life as anything, and removing your ability to express it - condemn it, invoke it, paeanize it, whatever - is hideously stultifying to diction and spirit.

Eh, there's always other ways to express your emotions at the moment than cussing.

They exist, but are they necessarily better? Since I dislike giving questions like this without giving an example: a married couple gets into a fight over something trivial. Assume there is no particular grievance except a particular, irreconcilable incident. Now, assume they have two alternatives: they can pointedly state their negative opinions Gallant-style or they can swear at each other like freaks Goofus-style. (To adopt the same paradigm you used for that, uh, intriguing example of yours.)
The Gallant-style couple is expressing nothing that either partner doesn't already know, in a deadly serious, measured, and precise tone.
The Goofus-style couple is just yelling profanities at each other.
Now, when the two wake up in the morning - after having calmed down, one sleeping on the couch, whatever - the Goofuses talk it over over coffee, chalk up their shouting to nerves, and live happily ever after.
The Gallants, on the other hand, have much more likely said bitter, hurtful things that will drive a severe wedge into their marriage; and even if BOTH do so, the Gallants have less ability to call it temporary anger and therefore less ability to deal with those wounds.
In this case, use of profanity creates a tone which, while more explosive in the short term, will probably be better for reconciliation in the long run; a lack thereof both removes that tone - turning that argument into a pointed exchange likely to permanently hurt feelings - and makes the bulk of the conversation focus more on actual grievances, which can't be smoothed out easily (as opposed to swear words, which are just swear words).

Food for thought.
quote:

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Now, I buy the argument that listening to cursing leads one to curse more freely, because it makes sense. However, there seems to be a general presumption on the behalf of those who are pointing it out (i.e. ben) that cursing is, in and of itself, a bad thing. I mean, an analogy to smoking is made, but we don't smoke because Smoking is Bad(TM); we avoid it because it causes physical damage.


And cussing can cause mental damage. I think that just the fact that someone is cussing therefore implies some level of mental damage. Then when they cuss, other people's heads get filled with cuss words, and they start to include cuss words into the way they think and eventually the way they talk. Cussing can be kind of contagious in the same way as things like smoking and drugs are stereotyped as "cool" in the minds of a few young people.

Oh, and just because I'm saying it doesn't mean it's totally wrong and not worth believing. :P

Interesting claim. Interesting evidence?

[quote]
But then again, I suppose that's what happens when your moral complex relies on an outside locus of control - i.e. what you DO and DO NOT do basically boils down to a cosmic rolled-up newspaper, and there exists no internal authority.

Right, and personal beliefs ie. Christianity can have a lot to do with it too.

Yeah, but your personal beliefs basically amount to there existing a finger (usually your parents', sometimes your parents' dressed up as God's) which points and says NO and thereby makes something intrinsically wrong. You might be trying to justify a contempt for profanity by constructing a negative impact honestly enough (honestly, cussing causes brain damage...? are you JOKING?), but your underlying motive is more 'X is bad because someone else says so' rather than 'X has a clear negative impact'.

quote:

---

I'm sure you see an obvious difference. Though this is a rather extreme example, it demonstrates the point. Not only does the first person just seem like a better person, but you can tell that he's obviously less likely to go to jail, get in trouble at school, and upset people. Furthermore, these people can be interpreted as good, God-fearing people also. Truly, Christians are often stereotyped as good and gentle people, that is to say, just by talking to someone, you can generally tell if they're a Christian or not. But I know this is religion again, so you may not believe me there.

Hmm. Wrong:
a) 'Good, god-fearing' are an oxymoron. Those who fear God are more inclined to hate His creation and consider it evil.


God-fearing is a common synonym in the Christian world for worshipping and revering God. It does not mean to be afraid of him.

No, it means exactly 'to be afraid of him'. I find it despicable because it implies the idea that God works more through fear than love. A loving God encourages action; a cowing God inspires only reaction.
But then again, I always was more of a New Testament man than you, so...
quote:

b) What's preventing someone who curses like a sailor from being godly? I mean, God never actually prohibits it (except for taking His name in vain, of course - so no shouting the secret name of God to the cosmos) in any way.

It never says in the Bible that you can't use cuss words, and it certainly doesn't list any words one should never use, unless maybe using God in an ungodly context. Most Christians just see that cussing is a vulgar and a bad habit to have and it just generally goes against their life's standard of being a Christian person. Just because the Bible doesn't say doing some such thing is wrong, if it still seems wrong, true Christians will try to avoid doing it.

Hmm. I'm not so sure I like the idea of peer pressure being the source of religious values. Incidentally, have you ever heard of the witch-trials? For whatever crazy reason, I can't get them out of my head right now. You might like to look them up. They certainly were interesting.
quote:

c) You could make the case, I guess, that the swearing party is non-godly (based on what scripture, I have to wonder?), but that doesn't mean, conversely, that the non-swearing party is. Removing curse words from Hitler's private vocabulary wouldn't have solved much from a moral perspective.

I agree that just because you don't cuss, you are not necessarily a Christian, and just because you cuss doesn't mean you're non-Christian. It's just general that a Christian doesn't usually cuss and a non-Christian is more likely to pick it up.

Hmm. Fascinating. So you're telling me that a devout Christian, who follows a religion with no actual prohibitions on non-divine profanity, is less likely to swear than a devout Buddhist, who follows a religion which directly discourages it. I take it that is because the Buddhist is darker.

quote:

d) I suppose by what you consider Christian, you could tell from talking to someone - but that's because your brand of Christianity has a particular and pervasive pushiness to it that I find absurdly unpleasant.

It's in our religion to spread the good news (that Christ died for our sins), and we should strive to set an example for all non-Christians and be as much like Christ as we can. Not to say that Christians are perfect - no one is - but we try to get closer to perfect.

Being told about Christianity or just being excessively nice to by someone else can be rather uncomforting, especially on your conscience, but you know almost by instinct if what you're doing is right or wrong. One question is just whether or not to believe your instincts (or conscience, if you will) or beleive something else, maybe because other people believe it, it's easier, or something.

'Being told about Christianity' is something of a distortion and you know it. I mean, you might agree with the typical evangelist, but you can't tell me if he belonged to any other religion you'd find him tolerable for more than few minutes at a shot.
And 'being excessively nice to by someone' seems to assert (the phrasing is awful, but we all make mistakes) that Christians make a habit of being excessively charitable. I'm not sure I buy that - yes, there's a religious basis for charity, but it's a common factor to all religions. Mormons (who I doubt you'd consider Christian, having another book and not believing in Hell and all) consider charity a far greater virtue than the average protestant-evangelical; Muslims have their faith demand charity out of them; there are lots of Buddhist and Hindu charities out there; etc. Now, if we're talking religious people vs. atheists, I'd say religious people are more philosophically inclined to charity. But Christians vs. anyone else? Nah. We're no better.
quote:


e) I'd hardly think Christians are stereotyped as good and gentle; we're hardly qualified to stereotype ourselves, and in communities where we are not in the absurd majority (some immigrants, Jews, etc.) we're actually stereotyped as obnoxious, pushy, viciously exclusionary, and sometimes just outright mean-spirited.

How do you stereotype Christians, then? ben-like Republicans? You'd have to agree that most Christians are not perverse or mean. In fact, the better you get to know God, the more your actions tend to take this direction.

I know God just fine, and yet I've never believed in Hell, I've never felt compunction about swearing, I've never seen any event as having a divine cause, and I've never wanted to convert to a religion that would require me to.
I stereotype Christians as believers in the power of the word and/or the person of Christ. I stereotype protestant-evangelicals as you-like Republicans, yes. But that's because I like my stereotypes to have a basis in fact.

quote:

Really, I think your problem here is twofold:
a) You associate 'good' strongly with 'Christian'. I do not hesitate to remind you that plenty of Christians have been true SOBs, and plenty of icons of righteousness have been non-Christians (Torquemada; Gandhi).


Many people who claim to be Christians are just "believe in God just enough to get to heaven" people. They try to set a balance between drinking and other activities but believe in God just so they can go to heaven when they die. Needless to say, these people are not devoted Christians and don't have much backup for their claim. True Christians always strive to become better Christians.

I don't know. I'd say Torquemada did plenty of striving to be a better Christian, and a lot of striving for other people to be better Christians, too. But that's not really relevant - you have to recognize that all good is not Christianity and Christianity is not all good.
quote:

b) Your definition of good action and bad action is defined exclusively by an authoritarian schema. You believe God tells you cursing is wrong, therefore it's anti-Christian and being anti-Christian is punishment enough for you, so you refrain from swearing.

Though God does not directly say, "Swearing is bad! Don't ever do it or else!" as I said, people see that swearing isn't a good thing to practice and refrain from it.

Funny that they need a society which disapproves of swearing to make them feel bad about it. I've never been guilted over it and I know plenty of people who honestly do not care.
quote:

c) Amusingly enough, you believe God has - in Christianity, at least - had anything to say about profanity, outside of the big no-no of profaning God Himself. Perhaps it would suit you to read your Bible sometime; you sure do put an awful lot of stock for someome who gets their knowledge of it from hearsay.

I have already touched on this in earlier responses, so I don't feel the need to repeat myself too much here.

As I said, I would understand that your beliefs come from a rift in basic assumptions if you were justifying them by chapter and verse. But we're talking community standards here. They're shaky enough to base the law of man on, to say nothing of the law of God!
quote:
[b]
I would agree that Christianity should be a search for goodness, and its ultimate aim should be ultimate good, but you don't auto-magically achieve that by quivering before the cosmic rolled-up newspaper (man, I like that one - I'm going to write it down). There has to be an active search. I'm not convinced cursing is part of that.

There is an active search - life. Refraining from profanity is one of the things that can help with this search, making your mind clearer and your motives better.

[/b]
I've given a thought experiment to the direct contrary, and you've made some pretty specious claims. I think my side just holds more water.
[/quote]

[ Tuesday, May 24, 2005 18:45: Message edited by: Custer XVI ]

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Simple courtesy and respect to your fellow man is a good thing. Swearing is pretty impolite by its nature. I really see no need to make the issue more complicated than that, Ben.

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There are two separate issues. The first is why charged language exists at all. Is there a reason to have profanity when more polite and otherwise interchangeable words exist? The second is how such language should be treated as long as it does exist. Should we always opt for the less volatile term?

I'm not a linguist, so I could hardly tell you why we turn certain terms into exclamations that aren't fit for polite company. Now that we have, though, I do think it would be a shame to lose the distinction. If I utter a string of words that can only be represented here by @#&*($^, I want to get a response. I don't want it to be the same response as I get by saying, "Gosh darn it, I am annoyed!" There is a distinct qualitative difference, and it deserves to be recognized and, when appropriate, used.

With that said, does it make sense that you can't express strong (usually negative) emotions in polite company? Not really. Social mores don't have to make sense. They just exist.

I'm inclined to believe it's a class issue. High society did and possibly does not curse, at least in public. The lower classes cursed like the sailors who happened to be members of that class. Thus, cursing marks you as a coarse lout. It wouldn't be the only social leftover of a more Victorian culture.

Alec: Saying that cursing at great length and then making up later isn't harmful while making cold, pointed comments is harmful is an argument that holds no water. Getting angry and shouting and then apologizing later will stress any relationship, but usually not to the breaking point. Bitter, hurtful remarks, with or without profanity, are a greater strain.

Again, profanity tends to make remarks be taken as stronger no matter the context. Between "I hate you!" and "I #$&*(@^ hate you!" the former is the weaker exclamation. It makes sense to me that the latter would require more making up afterwards. It's all a socio-linguistic (huzzah for created words!) construct, but that doesn't make it any less real.

Ben: You can believe that cursing is wrong, but there isn't a shred of religious basis for it. The religious of all faiths have tended to frown on swearing, but they have also had many other proscribed actions and behaviors that have little or nothing to do with the holy text in question. Since you can't point to a reason God disapproves, why do you think religious society, or any society, disapproves? That's the more useful question.

—Alorael, who thinks of many things when he thinks of Christians. The some worst people he knows, and some are pretty awful, are devout Christians. So are the some of the best people he knows. And a great deal of that is due to the fact that he knows many Christians. Religion doesn't say a thing about personal character. There isn't a large-scale religion on Earth that has successfully maintained a doctrine of being just a nice guy.
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quote:
Originally written by Land of Dor:

—Alorael, who thinks of many things when he thinks of Christians. The some worst people he knows, and some are pretty awful, are devout Christians. So are the some of the best people he knows. And a great deal of that is due to the fact that he knows many Christians. Religion doesn't say a thing about personal character. There isn't a large-scale religion on Earth that has successfully maintained a doctrine of being just a nice guy.
Buddhism is close but it's not particularly large-scale...

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The key word being "successfully". There are plenty of bad Buddhists around. (Besides, Buddhism isn't really significantly less burdened with doctrine for the sake of doctrine than any other religion.)

[ Wednesday, May 25, 2005 03:49: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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For once an off-topic discussion that's better than the topic!

I'm an avid Radiohead fan, so I'm listening to that constantly.

I have no qualms with swear words. I do prefer to call them profanities though. Sounds better.

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quote:
Originally written by Ben:

And cussing can cause mental damage.
Your version of Christianity can cause mental damage.

[ Wednesday, May 25, 2005 04:35: Message edited by: Andrew Miller ]
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touche andrew miller and i agree, one of the best reiligions (in the top 5 of my thoughts) is greek pagenism
you dont do much
p.s. how did we get to this topic???????

[ Wednesday, May 25, 2005 11:14: Message edited by: shadow, the ]

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First, to Ben:

Here's your problem and the reason your arguments are so weak.

1. You are stating as undeniable truth that which is a matter of belief. I'm with Alec on the point that being Christian means no more than that you believe in the works/existence of Christ. The definition of a "good Christian" varies wildly from one belief system to another. If, by your definition of Christianity, you are more of a good Christian if you don't swear, good for you. However, your belief is not everyone's belief and you need to figure out that there's nothing wrong with that. Even if you should believe that you are right and they are wrong, the most it is your place to do is state your belief and allow them to agree or not. I, for one, think that every one has as much right to their beliefs as I do to mine, no matter the extent to which we may disagree. Besides, if a belief is forced upon some one, rather than them choosing to believe it of their own free will, can they really be said to believe it?

2. I am not entirely certain you are understanding your own beliefs properly, you sound strikingly similar to some particularly uninformed and close-minded members of my religion that I know. Or perhaps you are understanding correctly. In which case you are saying "You are all bad people if you don't believe my beliefs". If such is the case, I would ask you to please keep it to yourself, if you don't mind.

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On other things that have been said:

Dolphin, I agree that merely hearing swear words does not mean you will say them. However, as I have said before, it is proven that what you hear is more on your mind than what you don't. Though you rarely swear, you do, by your own admission, swear. If you heard swearing constantly (note: constantly) eventually you would either begin to do so or it would be a constant struggle not to. The amount you hear it is directly proportional to how difficult it is to avoid saying it.

However, I understand that it is not possible to avoid it entirely unless you live alone in a cave. It's not as though every time I hear certain words I go "AHH! My virgin ears! Speak no more!" However, if it is becoming frequent, I may ask some one to please try to avoid saying such things, as Ash said, as a matter of common courtesy.

I don't remember who said it, but something about Christianity (and most other religions) pursuing goodness. I personally avoid swearing because, throughout my life, it has been given crude and obscene connotation. Something I do not view as synonymous with good.

As another point, I myself express strong emotion in various inarticulate manners. It gets the point across just as well, without certain words being said, but, admittedly, at the sacrifice of articulation.

[ Wednesday, May 25, 2005 13:01: Message edited by: Archmage Alex ]

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Achmage Alex - I agree that swearing constantly is vulgar and unnecessary, and there are much more polite ways to handle differences and frustrating or painful situations. And of course certain situation and places (like here) make such language more inappropriate that at other times.

With all due respect you really don't know how much those around me swear. They very often say thing I don't want to hear. I don't repeat those things to others because they are unkind to say, and are in no way productive in an argument. I choose not to say them because I don't want to use them. Like anything else vocabulary is a habit, and is a choice whether is it adopted or not.

That said, people shouldn't be judged so harshly for using swear words, and they certainly shouldn't be generalized as being bad people.

[ Wednesday, May 25, 2005 13:40: Message edited by: Dolphin ]

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My point was that it is clearly easier to avoid swearing if those around you are not doing it.

If I somehow implied people who swear are bad people, my apologies. Such was not my intention.

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quote:
Originally written by Ash Lael:

Simple courtesy and respect to your fellow man is a good thing. Swearing is pretty impolite by its nature. I really see no need to make the issue more complicated than that, Ben.
Exactly. Some people feel the need either to not believe this or to discredit is because I believe it or to not believe that this means people should refrain from doing it as much as possible.

In the same way, I'm choosing not to reply fully to Alec's post, for the reasons that it was getting really long and whatever I say against him, he won't believe it. I guess in the same way whatever he says against me I probably won't be inclined to believe, so there you go.

The point I made in the beginning was that music could be a lot better without the excessive cussing that can be seen in some kinds (certainly not all; notice I said some). Listening to that music has the same consequences as constantly listening to people that cuss in the world around you. Why would you want to voluntarily subscribe to such a thing?

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...

This discussion has gone beyond stupid. I will outline Ben's claims as best I can, to see if he actually backs up his original point...

Original claim:

"Some music is good; other music is very degrading to someone's life. Especially if it's chalk full of cuss words."

Your harm is that cussing is "degrading to someone's life" moreso than otherwise if it contains cuss words.

"Cuss words are any word referring to some durragatory (sp?) concept or thing used in a degrading tone toward any other person or to God."
(Derogatory)

Alec has already answered your "God" claim but completely, and has also addressed the casuality of curse words with comparison to genuinely scathing barbs as well. You have yet to counter either such point.
(PS- In this statement, you have also gone two-faced on your original statements. Is it just cuss words that are bad, or is it only cuss words directed at something?)

"The separate instances, though of varying "severeness," are largely predefined by society as a whole. Basically, if I were to blurt out a word, you could tell me if it was a cuss word or not. Even if it doesn't seem so bad to you as an individual."

As an aside, did you know that if you were relying on social contract theory, you would have to accept cursing, since most people really don't care?

PS- You still haven't qualified your claim on a moral level.

"Not only does the first person just seem like a better person, but you can tell that he's obviously less likely to go to jail, get in trouble at school, and upset people. Furthermore, these people can be interpreted as good, God-fearing people also. Truly, Christians are often stereotyped as good and gentle people, that is to say, just by talking to someone, you can generally tell if they're a Christian or not."

Since you haven't apologized or attempted to qualify this statement at all, I may as well let you know WHY you're a pizzle-licking, gormless invertebrate: Christians™ don't go to jail (and are therefore better people?), Christians™ do better in school, Christians™ do not upset people (you'd think this mere example would make you a hypocrite already), Christians™ are gentle people, and Christians™ are identifiable based upon their mannerisms.

I don't want to cry "Hitler" yet, but you make it tempting and also legitimate. "Falangist," on the other hand... (And I'll be doubly damned if you know what that is- not that I'm not doomed already under your ecclesial dominatrix already, but nevertheless.)

...oh yeah. You also forgot to qualify your "Mr. Mean" example. I guess you got caught up in bragging how much better your religion makes people.

"I think cussing is just a bad habit to get into, and the kind of music a person listens to, especially developing people like children and teenagers, can affect their personality."

For future reference, a sentence is supposed to be a complete thought, not two completely unrelated ones.

"Excessive cussing in music fills the person's mind with constant cuss words, and because of that, they routinely cuss in regular speech. It's hard to quit once you have a problem with cussing, but like other addictive bad habits like drinking or smoking, quitting the cause can help you quit all together."

Apart from the fact that you are MASSIVELY misgauging the effect of boogie-woogie music (for instance, have we forgotten that parents exist?), you still have yet to qualify your original claim.

"It's very easy to frown upon and stop listening to what they have to say, however."

So in other words, cuss words become a caveat to ignore whatever the person is saying? Good motherfucking job.

"This is not to say that these words should be taken out of our language; I know people will continue to use them, but frequent use of such strong words as those in a vulgar way is not very appealing to all that have to listen to it every day."

I like pink shirts, thus they are morally reprehensible.

(Again with that not backing things up...)

"Which are words commonly used to describe cuss words. And in most cases, they are vulgar and inappropriate."

This does not explain anything on a moral level.

"Eh, there's always other ways to express your emotions at the moment than cussing."

Right. You could choose more severe ones, as Alec outlined...
(And there's always other ways to express your emotions, no matter WHAT words you are using. What this statement actually MEANS is beyond me.)

"And cussing can cause mental damage. I think that just the fact that someone is cussing therefore implies some level of mental damage. Then when they cuss, other people's heads get filled with cuss words, and they start to include cuss words into the way they think and eventually the way they talk. Cussing can be kind of contagious in the same way as things like smoking and drugs are stereotyped as "cool" in the minds of a few young people."

Cussing is cool, which means it must be bad! Let's stop that whole "breathing" thing. Oh yeah, and going to school has become unGodly.

PS- As Thuryl said before, find a medical journal and/or make sense to back up any or all psychological claims.

"Oh, and just because I'm saying it doesn't mean it's totally wrong and not worth believing."

Which was essentially what your previous point boiled down to, right?

"Right, and personal beliefs ie. Christianity can have a lot to do with it too."

One-sentence responses do not expound themselves.

"Most Christians just see that cussing is a vulgar and a bad habit to have and it just generally goes against their life's standard of being a Christian person. Just because the Bible doesn't say doing some such thing is wrong, if it still seems wrong, true Christians will try to avoid doing it."

Why, thank you, Benjamin S.J. I had no idea that you could make up things off of the top of your head and call them as important as biblical canon.
(Not to insult the Jesuits or the Catholics- Romans usually tend to give concrete and well-founded reasons for their extrabiblical dogma, unlike YOU.)

"It's just general that a Christian doesn't usually cuss and a non-Christian is more likely to pick it up."

Again with that Falangism...

"Being told about Christianity or just being excessively nice to by someone else can be rather uncomforting, especially on your conscience, but you know almost by instinct if what you're doing is right or wrong."

Right. Because we're all born with essentially the same belief systems.

"How do you stereotype Christians, then? ben-like Republicans? You'd have to agree that most Christians are not perverse or mean."

Most Christians™ are also not like you, and are much more open and tolerating in their beliefs. Go figure.

"In fact, the better you get to know God, the more your actions tend to take this direction."

So the more people act the way you (read as: pappy and the board of education) tell people to be, the closer they become to God®? I think Franco has a necro-boner going.

"I'm choosing not to reply fully to Alec's post, for the reasons that it was getting really long and whatever I say against him, he won't believe it."

And I don't blame him. 'I believe this and so should you' simply doesn't hold water.

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Mods, could you PLEASE do SOMETHING about TM? I for one am getting quite sick of his profanity, and he has gotten away with it far too many times. It's gone beyond isolated incidents.

quote:
Originally written by N00BEN:

The point I made in the beginning was that music could be a lot better without the excessive cussing that can be seen in some kinds (certainly not all; notice I said some). Listening to that music has the same consequences as constantly listening to people that cuss in the world around you. Why would you want to voluntarily subscribe to such a thing?
Well, to answer directly, some people would do so because they enjoy the music, and couldn't care less about the swearing. The artist may like to use swear words because they state his feelings more strongly, or possibly for a laugh (ala The Real Slim Shady).

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A topic about beliefs and I'm missing out!?! Looks like I got some reading to do. In the meantime...

*smothers TM with love*

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quote:
Originally written by Ash Lael:

Mods, could you PLEASE do SOMETHING about TM? I for one am getting quite sick of his profanity, and he has gotten away with it far too many times. It's gone beyond isolated incidents.
Oh, please. This is THE topic where it's relevant and topical. Why not convince me to stop using my shitty fucking language? ^_-

(Really, though. Are you jealous that I can break the nonsensical rules, or are you genuinely offended by the words?)

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I think the boards are unfairly censored any way. Why the fock can't I say what I want to. Obscure my words will you fockin slagz.

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