THE GREAT DEBATE
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Friday, April 22 2005 23:26
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Okay, time for a major event thread. Debate threads are a long standing tradition here. And we see the patterns. We get onto a topic like abortion or homosexuality or whatever, and the posts come in thick and fast and long, and no one ever changes their mind about anything. This thread, that all changes. Maybe. When everyone posts, there are too many things to respond to, and you have to abandon lines of argument and good points are never addressed and people disappear and reappear from the thread seemingly at random and you have to start all over again... This topic, the debate is between 2 people and only 2 people. This gives each a chance to respond effectively to each other without getting snowed under. It also means it's between 2 different worldviews, not 2 dozen different worldviews. It also means that points must be addressed rather than just ignored and eventually buried. I put my hand up to take on nearly anyone on nearly any topic. I'm all stoked for another abortion debate at the moment, so if Mind or ef or Alec or anyone wants to participate in that, cool. Or if you'd like to debate some other issue, put up your hand and say so. I take the right-wing position on most points. However, I do ask that you come into this with intent to try and *sort the issue out* as best as possible, rather than score points. Maybe someone will finally change their mind about something. If not, hopefully both participants and onlookers will get a better understanding of the opposing viewpoint. If not, maybe it'll be a bit of fun. And if not that, maybe we'll learn a valuable lesson and never try this again. :P So... who's up? -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, April 23 2005 00:28
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quote:Well, guess that rules me out. Sorry. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5450
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written Saturday, April 23 2005 01:38
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I'll try and go against you. I don't really mind what subject, whether its about suicide or even the local footy match. If I know at least a bit the subject, I'll do it. If I don't, well you can find some-one else or pick another topic. -------------------- I'll put a Spring in your step. Polaris Posts: 2396 | Registered: Saturday, January 29 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 156
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written Saturday, April 23 2005 01:54
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Interesting. Been away for a while(got distracted by Other Games ™ ). Edit: remembered the BBCode for that trademark thing. Anyway, I am not much good on the abortion issue(I am a liberal and AM pro-choice. It's just that I think the issue is more complex than people tend to make it and I am not particularly inclined to sort it out) but matters of skepticism vs. existential claims(gods/psychics/ghosts/fairies/whatever) are my strong suit and I am a skeptic if anyone fancies taking up the guantlet there(and yes Thuryl, you ARE right out :D ). [ Saturday, April 23, 2005 02:01: Message edited by: SkeleTony ] -------------------- "I am in a very peculiar business. I travel all over the world telling people what they should already know." - James Randi Posts: 219 | Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5450
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written Saturday, April 23 2005 02:43
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So Ash, what topic do you pick, if I'm going to be going against you? Edit: NOT abortion, or any other recent topic that has been posted on 100's of times. [ Saturday, April 23, 2005 02:45: Message edited by: Sprung Spring ] -------------------- I'll put a Spring in your step. Polaris Posts: 2396 | Registered: Saturday, January 29 2005 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Saturday, April 23 2005 03:12
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I think that it should be Mr. Ashby vs. some sort of vegetarian/vegan. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy desperance.net - We're Everywhere ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5450
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written Saturday, April 23 2005 03:22
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Interesting. Rules me out though. I could go against a vegtarian though. I argue every weekend pretty much against my friend - shes a vegetarian. -------------------- I'll put a Spring in your step. Polaris Posts: 2396 | Registered: Saturday, January 29 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Saturday, April 23 2005 03:25
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quote:Vegan or just no-meat? -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Saturday, April 23 2005 03:32
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A friend of mine is a vegan. Another friend of mine claims to be a vegetarian, but he eats McDonald's hamburgers. His justification for this is that it's not real meat anyway. :P -------------------- The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) Famous Last Words - A local pop-punk band They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 22
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written Saturday, April 23 2005 03:35
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I'm a vegetarian, but not from the animal liberation angle. Still, I know all the arguments regarding political vegetarianism pretty well, so if nobody else stands up, I'd be willing to take it. [ Saturday, April 23, 2005 03:35: Message edited by: Morgan ] Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5450
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written Saturday, April 23 2005 03:37
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I agree with your friend, he has a fair point. McDonalds claim to be real meat, however. They have 'nutrition informaion' on their packs. I had it about 4 hours before I posted this, and still can't get the taste out of my mouth. Oh well. EDIT: To the debate: Ash, who is your opponent, and what is the topic? [ Saturday, April 23, 2005 03:38: Message edited by: Sprung Spring ] -------------------- I'll put a Spring in your step. Polaris Posts: 2396 | Registered: Saturday, January 29 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4445
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written Saturday, April 23 2005 05:17
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I vote for a three-way debate. TM vs. Kelandon on the relative merits of socialism and capitalism/liberal democracy, with occasional interjections by Alec as the voice of reason. I think such a discussion would be, for better or worse, interesting, and could be very enlightening. Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, April 23 2005 06:41
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Er. Given how, so far as I am aware, Kelandon isn't exactly Milton Friedman, I'm not entirely sure why a "voice of reason" would be needed in such a debate. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Saturday, April 23 2005 07:56
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For the record, I don't read General anymore unless my name gets mentioned, so I'm out. Well, if the games get mentioned, or under other occasional circumstances, but eh. Not for this, certainly. [ Saturday, April 23, 2005 08:02: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5437
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written Saturday, April 23 2005 08:24
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Depending on the topic. I could argue the meat eater vs. vegan/vegetarian, but it would be from a nutritional angle rather than a political angle. I was a vegetarian for about six months; it didn't work out well for me. Oh please no more abortion. Anything but that. -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Saturday, April 23 2005 09:58
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Do we have any actual advocates of capitalism here? I know there are some conservatives, but I don't think I've seen any economic rightwingers on Spiderweb. In any political debate, it would do well to remember that the average of the Spiderweb population came in at -4.41 -4.32 on the Political Compass at last count. [ Saturday, April 23, 2005 09:58: Message edited by: I be God of teh Grammar ] -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Saturday, April 23 2005 11:34
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I'm throwing down. I'd *prefer* that abortion not be the topic, though, because we've got a fundamental and unsolvable clash of criteria on that one (you believe the pro to be murder, I believe the con to be needless religious theocracy) and it'd eventually devolve into a slap-fight. A lot of social issues are the same way, so I'm curious - you up for something in economics? I dunno, socialist technocracy versus general libertarianism? I take it you're not a hard laissez-faire kind of person, which is no problem, because I'm not a hard communist either. Failing that, I'd be comfortable with most social and even religious issues, but be warned that we're likely to make little real headway - because your beliefs and mine are based on an entirely different set of ideals, and those ideals are unlikely to change in any realistic way. Is this going to be heavy on structure, i.e. something like two statements of purpose, no introduction of new evidence after a certain time, etc. - or are we just going to make sure we address all of the issues? I'm good either way. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 3521
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written Saturday, April 23 2005 15:18
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I'm a vegetarian, and am fairly strong on my animal rights rhetoric. It's one of the few issues I'd ever be willing to engage in a massive debate over. How about a structured team debate of some sort, to get other people besides the main participants involved but also keep things confined to two articulated viewpoints? -------------------- Stughalf "Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed."- The Bhagavad Gita. Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1993
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written Saturday, April 23 2005 15:56
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Yeah, go for animal rights, Stugie! I'll support you with all my enthusiasm. -------------------- ^ö^ vegetarians are sexy. Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Saturday, April 23 2005 17:49
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Alright, let's go for vegetarianism/animal rights. Me vs. Stugie. Let's see how this pans out. We'll keep it light on structure for now, possibly introduce new rules if it becomes apparent that they are needed. Religion is likely to become a key issue here, what with me being a Christian and Stug being a Hindu. My view is essentially that there is nothing particularly wrong with killing animals, for food or otherwise. All else being equal, I'd prefer it didn't happen. However, all else is not equal. I can see no reason to accord animals the same or similar rights as humans. Yes, my personal views on the subject are a result of my religious beliefs. But even from an atheistic viewpoint, I don't think that there is any reason to protect an animal. Let's see what Stug does with that. [ Saturday, April 23, 2005 17:53: Message edited by: Ash Lael ] -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 3521
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written Monday, April 25 2005 03:48
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Damn, I really left this topic hanging. My apologies, but it might be a while before I'm capable of responding properly, owing to the fact that my left hand is woefully out of commission. I spent much of Saturday night passed out on the lawn in front of the house that had hosted the party, and woke up dreadfully cold, covered in dirt and grass stains, and with a mysteriously injured left hand. Probably sprained my wrist in my collapse to the ground, but that's just a guess. Anyway, this short bit has been typed using my right hand exclusively, and until I have a proper brace for my left wrist, I'll be unable to spare the time for a response. Might have one as early as this afternoon, hopefully. Until then, my apologies for being a goddamn idiot. I plan to stay sober next weekend, for the record. -------------------- Stughalf "Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed."- The Bhagavad Gita. Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1993
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written Monday, April 25 2005 09:42
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In the meantime some pictures here. (click on the camera.) -------------------- ^ö^ vegetarians are sexy. Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
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written Monday, April 25 2005 10:34
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quote:I don't see the animals being tortured. The good taste of their flesh indicates the absence of adrenaline, which proves that they die violently and painfully: They are shot in the skull, and die nearly entirely painless. In this matter, their endurable, but empty lives come to an end. Besides, you can't directly save the meaningless lives of the animals by not eating their flesh. Thus, I will not become a vegetarian. [ Monday, April 25, 2005 10:37: Message edited by: Mind ] Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5437
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written Monday, April 25 2005 10:47
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Well there is something to be said about the humane treatment of animals. Like cows living outside in meadows and eating grass rather than genetically modified pesticide sprayed grain. -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Monday, April 25 2005 13:19
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Stugie - That's teach you to teetotal! :P spy.there - Checked the link. Big deal. Animals get slaughtered. We all knew that. What point were you trying to make? Dolphin - By and large I agree with you. All else being equal, animals should be treated humanely and they generally are. But really, that's a poor comparison. They like grain better than grass, and I doubt they could care less whether it was GMO or pesticide-sprayed. (I know this is supposed to be just me and Stug, but we might as well get some sort of discourse happening while we're waiting for all the king's horses and all the king's men to put him together again) Edit: Mind, while I haven't been in an abbatoir, I don't think they use bullets. I think (but could be wrong) it's more common practice to have a hydraulic ram that comes down and conks them on the head. Pretty much the same effect, though. They don't see it coming, no fear or stress, and BAM, they're dead. It's a more painless death then they would suffer in nature. That may be just for sheep, though. I'm not sure how they kill cattle. [ Monday, April 25, 2005 13:31: Message edited by: Ash Lael ] -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
