Shah mat
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Wednesday, November 10 2004 19:18
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http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/10/arafat.obit/index.html Discuss. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5140
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written Wednesday, November 10 2004 19:42
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I'm optimistic the Palestinians will make some progress toward creating a Palestinian state once Arafat is out of the picture. I suppose things could actually get worse, but it's hard to imagine how. My suspicion is that Arafat didn't want a resolution so that he could stay in power. It's all pretty byzantine I suppose. -------------------- "You can coal mine, moonshine or move on down the line." - Appalachian career choices described in "Coal Miner's Daughter" Posts: 14 | Registered: Thursday, October 28 2004 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3870
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 03:34
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quote:Probably ate something wrong. Anyone in such a position should be very careful about their food. Other than that, rest in peace. I think it's disgusting how people will keep discussing political points and good consequences when he's dead. I don't like Bush; do you see me running around wishing he died of a stomach virus? :rolleyes: -------------------- "Toleration is not the opposite of intoleration, but is the counterfeit of it. Both are despotisms. The one assumes to itself the right of withholding liberty of conscience, and the other of granting it." ---Thomas Paine Posts: 156 | Registered: Thursday, January 8 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 04:06
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If you're implying poisoning, I'm not so sure; that's what I thought at first too, but it's just as likely that some of the higher-ups in the Palestinian Authority had known something was wrong with him for a long time and were covering it up. After all, he didn't exactly get out much. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 4973
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 04:13
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Well, now that he's dead, I sense a power grab coming on. This is a golden opportunity for the higher-ups over there to assume power. -------------------- There are three kinds of people in the world: those who think, those who think they think, and those who would rather die than think. Posts: 104 | Registered: Thursday, September 16 2004 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3870
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 05:32
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If there is to be any grabbing, it will likely revolve around the $900 Million that Arafat left on private accounts. -------------------- "Toleration is not the opposite of intoleration, but is the counterfeit of it. Both are despotisms. The one assumes to itself the right of withholding liberty of conscience, and the other of granting it." ---Thomas Paine Posts: 156 | Registered: Thursday, January 8 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4942
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 08:03
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Something remotely interesting that came up while I was watching MSNBC (or whatever it was) was a question the newsdude asked the "terror analyst". He asked her what she thought about some guy calling Arafat the "godfather of Al-Qaeda" or something like that. The guy calling Arafat the godfather also compared him to Osama bin Laden. What do you all think of that? -------------------- Wham Bam Shizam Posts: 247 | Registered: Monday, September 6 2004 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 09:31
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It's common to justify the US's intransigent pro-Israel stance by saying that Arafat is a horrible, awful, no-good terrorist, and therefore the entire Palestinian movement is a terrorist organization. Common, but not correct. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 09:42
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You are a devil when it comes to playing with words, Alec. Shah mat: 1)newer arabic root: the king is dead 2)older persian version: the king is struck dumb, broken, paralyzed, defeated -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 10:17
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quote:It's true. Arafat began as a terrorist back when he still acknowledged that he was an Egyptian. He personally funded Hamas and other organizations while head of the PLO. Some of you shall jump on me for this, but I'll say it anyway: Good riddance to that slime. Perhaps now the Palestinians will get a leader actually interested in peace instead of murder. Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 11:10
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I don't know as much about this as I should, but my understanding was that the Israeli leader is just as difficult to work with. I can't say I'm mourning Arafat's death very much, but I'm not too hopeful about the process, either. I don't think the US is in a position to facilitate negotiation between the two sides, so unless a European country steps up and unless Sharon gets better or gets replaced, Arafat's death doesn't mean a thing. Just a new face repeating the same words. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 11:27
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Unfortunately though, Kel, the US is in that position. I believe however that the US does carry weight with Israel, and with Arafat gone, there will be room now for progress to be made. The fact that Arafat was in power pretty much meant that there was no possibility of further discussions. Now that Sharon's mortal enemy is gone, at least that possibility is back on the table. I'm feeling cautiously optimistic at this point. Sharon, defying the will of his party, has ordered the withdrawal of settlements in Gaza. The prize, of course, is the West Bank, so we'll see what happens there, but this has been a step in the right direction. The wall, though a fundamentally bad thing, I think has served as a sobering message to the Palestinians that they've burned up any goodwill with Israel they had, and that if they want to move forward, they'll need to get their own house in order. There's always the risk that Hamas will fill the vacuum, but I think that the Palestinians who are tired of the violence are starting to realize that Hamas doesn't offer them a real solution. We'll see though. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 11:39
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Arafat was definnitely an obstacle to the creation of a Palestinian state. The 2000 summit at Camp David was almost everything the Palestinians asked for, and probably the best they could wring from hostile Israelis. Arafat's refusal probably set the peace process back decades. Part of that setback was Sharon and company. Even if the new Palestinian leader is a paragon, Sharon will impede progress. I note that Arafat isn't even being allowed burial in Jerusalem. That seems rather unnecessarily confrontational to me... —Alorael, who will continue to watch and hope. However, without a clear Palestinian leader, a cordial Israeli leader, or an America that could mediate peace without appearing completely hypocritical, things look bleak. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 11:53
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I was under the impression that the Palestinian authorities had asked for Arafat to be buried in his compound. I can't seem to find the news story that said that, but I read it somewhere. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3610
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 12:20
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And, in other news, Yassr Arafat continues to be dead... I think the impications of the situation are way too difficult to judge. I would just like to recall the lesson the the Israeli-Egyptian peace process: You need to make peace with an Israeli hawk (the Likud) otherwise, when the Likud ultimately get control of the government, they will overturn the peace. Incidentally, just remember that both (the) al'Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade and the Fatah movement were closely associatiated with Arafat up until his death. Both were undeniably terrorist organizations. My hope is that now that the "great father" is gone, the Palestinians will carry out their hopes to get a democratic government, and that the two governments will come to an agreement. Posts: 129 | Registered: Tuesday, October 28 2003 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 13:07
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quote:Wikipedia: The 'New Historians' are a group of Israeli historians, who aim to submit a revision of the history of Israel and the Zionism. Relevant historians of this direction are Benny Morris, Ilan Pappe and Avi Shlaim. Their research is based on the evaluation of Israeli government documents; arab sources have been so far neglected (which has often been critizised). Core thesis of this school is that the driving out of a part of the Arab population was necessary for the establishment of the state of Israel, an event, which so far has been interpreted as 'voluntary migration' by the official Israeli historiography. The 'New Historians' are of the opinion that the State of Israel has therefore a joint responsibility for the development of the Middle East Conflict. The theses of the "New Historians" are under attack from both the zionistic historiography, that represents 'voluntary migration' as their point of view, and from pro-Arab authors, who accuse them to try to play down what happened. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 13:15
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I believe there was a desire expressed among the Palestinian "people" that he be buried in Jerusalem. I agree with the view though that he shouldn't. Burying him there further legitimizes the Palestinians' claims to the city, at least in their minds, which would only make finding a peace settlement that much trickier, as it's likely at this point that no such settlement will include any portion of Jerusalem. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 13:25
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quote:...I call Arafat slime and you bring up an encyclopedia entry about Israeli revisionist historians? That makes a whole lot of sense. Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 13:28
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If you were driven out of your country, because somebody else happens to want it, would you consider youself a terrorist,if you fought to get it back? -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 14:03
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quote:Arafat is an Egyptian. Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 14:14
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Depends on the means. Certain actions are terrorist actions, regardless. The myth propogated by many government administrations right now that all terrorism is bad is, well, exaggerated. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 15:14
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The problem is not in governments claiming all terrorism is bad. It is - it's a despicable tactic, just like amassing vast arsenals of nuclear weapons and vetoing UN decisions on personal whims. The problem lies rather in the governments (the governments concerned, at least), attaching terrorism to a specific group of people. Dictionaries define terrorism a tactic frequently used by militarily inferior sides in a war, or as a tool for coercion through the means of fear. They define a terrorist as someone who engages in the act of terrorism. The Bush administration appears to define terrorism as any act engaged in by terrorists. They define a terrorist as the member of any group, organization or government that is in the way of their agenda. quote:On another note, spitting on a dead man's grave is sick, no matter what views he held in life that you happen to disagree with. I have no problem with saying there is a new chance for peace now that he's gone, or that he was obstructing the peace process, but this kind of cursing goes beyond any tact or politeness. You deserve no better when it's your turn. -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 15:55
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quote:Attaching the word "terrorist" to groups of Islamic fundamentalists who are in the process of killing or trying to kill us and our allies seems to be a fairly accurate definition in our current war on terror... quote:I would dearly love to see how you can back this up. quote:I spit equally upon the living; I'm an equal opportunity opprumbist. Arafat is a man who paid people to indiscriminately kill women and children. He deserved to be shot while he lived and I can't say that he deserves anything less than contempt now that he is dead. I have long defended the Palestinians' right to their own state in numerous places, but I will never say anything but the foulest things about Yasser Arafat. [ Thursday, November 11, 2004 15:56: Message edited by: Arenax ] Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00 |
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For Carnage, Apply Within
Member # 95
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 16:13
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The Israeli army will bulldoze whole villages in the Gaza strip, without warning, if they consider them dangerous, and leave the people there homeless. They frequently shoot unarmed, unbelligerent Palestinians. Settlers acting outside the government's mandate are frequently even more extreme, and the army looks the other way from their activities. The only thing keeping them from being classed as "terrorists" is that they're on our side. Posts: 567 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
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written Thursday, November 11 2004 17:41
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quote:1) The Israeli army gives at least 24 hours warning. The U.N. has looked into this and declared that acceptable, if not right. Regarding the "unbelligerent Palestinians" bit: you cannot tell the difference between an unarmed man and one wearing twenty kilos of C4. If a Palestinian doesn't obey the Israelis and continues moving closer, he's signed his own death warrant. 3) Those settlers you allude to are often shot at by Palestinians. I am acquaintances with a few people that live in a kibbutz on the edge of Gaza, and they're usually shot at first--but shoot last. 4) You all seem to forget something very important. Were the Palestinians in the Israelis' position, every Jew would be dead. The Israelis show remarkable restraint. They are surrounded entirely by enemies and have every right to be touchy. The Palestinians had a peace deal with everything they wanted except for sole control of Jerusalem on the table in 2000. Arafat walked away and let his suicide bombers continue slaughtering children on buses. From now on, they deserve what they get. Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00 |