A Hypothetical

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AuthorTopic: A Hypothetical
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Let us suppose that someone close to you has a hereditary heart condition which will lead to their death within weeks or months if they are not given a heart transplant. With a transplant, being in otherwise good health, they can reasonably expect to live another 10 years and perhaps longer. Let us suppose further that an excellent candidate for a heart transplant recently turned up dead in a nearby hospital; unfortunately, the vehicle transporting the heart was involved in a traffic accident and the heart was lost.

Fortunately, you somehow learn that the would-be donor has an identical twin. A few days later, you happen to meet this twin for the first time. The circumstances are such that you can easily kill them and make it look like an accident.

This is not an ethical dilemma. Under almost any reasonable ethical system, to kill this person would be unacceptable. The fact remains, however, that they are a stranger to you, and someone you know will die if you don't kill them.

So here's the question:

Is there anyone in your life you'd kill the stranger for, and if so, who?

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I like to think that I wouldn't, not even for myself.

I hope I never get to find out the truth though.

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Hmm. 10 years, you say? I don't think I could kill a person who wasn't trying to kill me, but I suppose it would depend on the state of the "donor" - how long do they have to live, how much would they be missed, do they have a family, etc. To tell you the truth, I can't think of anyone I'd kill for, and there would have to be an extremely good reason for prolonging their life. But I suppose I might be able to do it, given the right circumstances.

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Assuming that I truly can get away with it, anyone's fair game. Hell, depending on how much I liked the guy/gal, I may not even limit it to strangers.
(Of course, this assumes that there's anyone I like. Not sure about that one, which probably leads to my totally immoral response.)

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I don't know anyone I'd do that for, but I could see myself doing it under other circumstances. Not saying it's right, just that I'd kill him; I'm not perfect.
Just have to watch out the one you saved never finds out; it's no good living ten years if you spend most of it ridden by feelings of guilt...

[ Sunday, November 07, 2004 07:13: Message edited by: His Scabbard of Chalcedony. ]

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Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
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I don't think I could look anyone in the eye, whip out a gun, and leave a mess. Moral considerations aside, I don't have the stomach for that. Given the chance to engineer someone's death more impersonally, though, I might do it. Invisibility and impersonality are dangerous things, as the internet shows nicely.

—Alorael, who very much hopes he never gets the chance to test out this situation. Even if he did pull it off, he'd spend the next few decades in terror of being discovered and feeling guilty of murder.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
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Alorael brings up a good point- which is why I'd frame somebody.

And maybe bribe the jury, if I were feeling devious.

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"This is not an ethical dilemma. Under almost any reasonable ethical system, to kill this person would be unacceptable. The fact remains, however, that they are a stranger to you, and someone you know will die if you don't kill them."

On the other hand, you can go on a government funded trip to another country to kill people there, who may or may not be a threat to you, and come home a hero. (And/or in a body bag.)

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Posts: 148 | Registered: Tuesday, May 13 2003 07:00
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Although I'm no moral paragon, I can quite confidently say that I would never kill in such circumstances, or in almost any other situation, for that matter. Although being an ineffectual individual entirely incapable of decisive action has its drawbacks, it keeps me from ever really being dangerous to others. Since I accomplish very little, and am terrified of taking risks, I've almost never committed any action I'm ashamed of. Almost all of my regrets involve things I wish I had done at some point or the other, but didn't quite have the balls or motivation to do.

I don't even believe in killing one man to save many, since trading lives seems like a pointless exercise to me. One life is equivalent to ten thousand in my mind, since I don't believe in quantifying life. There's no way I could ever convince myself that I was justified in killing a stranger to buy a friend a few years more. This moral revulsion to the act, coupled with my aforementioned difficulty in acting decisively, would effectively prevent me from killing the stranger.

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Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by Emlurk:

"This is not an ethical dilemma. Under almost any reasonable ethical system, to kill this person would be unacceptable. The fact remains, however, that they are a stranger to you, and someone you know will die if you don't kill them."

On the other hand, you can go on a government funded trip to another country to kill people there, who may or may not be a threat to you, and come home a hero. (And/or in a body bag.)

This is absolutely irrelevant to the question, unless you are suggesting that we harvest organs from enemy combatants - in which case its relevance is tangential at best.

[ Sunday, November 07, 2004 12:59: Message edited by: Imban ]
Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
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Nope. Never.

What if some stranger walked up to somebody you knew and loved and killed them, justifying it by saying they were adding 10 years to someone's life that they knew. Totally inethical. Totally wrong. Worse than abortion.

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Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
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Of course it's wrong; as I said, the dilemma isn't an ethical one. We all do things that are wrong when they benefit ourselves and those close to us. The question is, how far are you willing to go? So far, I must say I'm pleasantly surprised by the responses, although the fact that they're "better" than I expected is pretty depressing in itself.

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"Unethical" is spelled thusly.

PS- The "what if" argument, outside of the vacuum of religion, loses alot of steam if you assume that there are no reprecussions. Hell, if killing somebody adds 10 people to my life or anybody else's of whom I liked, I'd kill a hundred times until I or he/she got bored of living.

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Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
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Well, who says that the person you are killing's life is worth more than the person you know? Even if the stranger you plan to kill turns out to be a complete idiot, who are you to decide that his life is not worth anything? It just doesn't seem right to kill, even if the person is a meaningless slob. But he isn't doing anything productive, so why not kill him? I really don't know whether I would kill or not.

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Posts: 247 | Registered: Monday, September 6 2004 07:00
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I'm not sure I understand. This, if anything, seems to be an ethical question. Would you or would you not.

I wouldn't. I hope I never get that close to someone. Who could that person be? A member of my family? A friend? A lover? No, I would not do it for any of these. I also agree with Alorael, it would take guts I don't have.

PS. Why not go down to Columbia and buy the heart of some unfortunate beggar? I hear you get them cheap and fresh this time of year. :P

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If you think "would you do it?" is an equivalent question to "is it right to do it?", then either you consider yourself to be a perfectly ethical person all the time or your conception of ethics isn't much like mine. To put it another way, the question was not intended to be which course of action is ethical, but whether or not to act ethically at all when doing so would involve considerable harm to someone important to you.

Here's another one that perhaps illustrates the point more vividly:

You're offered an opportunity to double the value of everything you own: a second house, a second car (if you have one), twice as much money in your bank account, etc. However, if you accept the offer, someone, somewhere in the world, a complete stranger to you, will die. Do you take the deal?

(The sting in the tail of this one, of course, is that by giving away all your possessions, or selling them and giving the proceeds to charities, you could easily save much more than one life. How, if at all, is refusing to do this morally different to accepting the above offer?)

[ Sunday, November 07, 2004 23:05: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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Isn't it, in a way, impossible to work against your morals? If you feel shoplifting is bad, and still shoplift, might you not have misjudged your own moral sense? Maybe you don't feel it's that bad after all?

If you think murder under no circumstances is acceptable, and still murder so that someone close to you might live, haven't you got it all wrong? It would seem that you think murder can be justified under some extrem circumstances. If you really would be a 100% against the thought... well, how could you do it? A sign that your moral isn't so flawless after all, I would think.

You might do something you know others will think is wrong, and you might feel bad about it. But the fact that you still actually did it would suggest that you find it "doable" after all. It isn't completely wrong, it is possible to justify it. A shade of grey on your moral scale, maybe.

Yeah, I love to be the underdog. So go ahead and own me.

[ Sunday, November 07, 2004 23:50: Message edited by: Kreshweed ]

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You seem to have a very Socratic sense of morality; that people only do what they believe to be right, and that if only we all knew and agreed on what was right nobody would do the wrong thing. You may be in good company in holding this view, but from my own experience of people who know things are wrong and do them anyway, I still think this viewpoint is unsustainable. Not all our motives can be reduced to considerations of morality.

[ Monday, November 08, 2004 00:20: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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Ugh. I wrote an obscenely long answer and then realized it had nothing to do with anything. I don't agree with Socrates or his daimonions, though. I think he's a wacko.

I seldom speak for what I really think. Protecting the ego and all that. And someone has to stand up for the wacko ideas.

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Just out of curiosity, what is the basis for your not killing the person or doubling your possessions? Sure, most people would say that those things are wrong, (okay maby the first one) but why are these things wrong?

Just wondering.

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quote:
from my own experience ... people who know things are wrong ... do them anyway
Absolutely, and that's not limited to ethics. Ever been stuck on that computer game the night before a test you haven't prepared for?

In certain circumstances, I'd say yes to the first of the qestions, even though I know it would be morally wrong. If you are prepared to quantify life, chances are the guy you kill has more than 10 years to live still. And who is anyone to judge the value of a person?

And I'm ashamed to say I'd probably agree to the other as well, for pure material gain. I'd justify it by saying that hundreds of people I don't know die every second anyway, so one more would not matter, but that reasoning would be faulty. It is very easy to kill when you don't see or know the victim.

On another note, that is what is dangerous about today's weapon technology, being able to press a button and kill millions on the other end of the planet, rather than having to flatten them one after the other with a stone club looking them in the face.

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I would not.
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I'm absolutely certain I could kill the person with no qualms at the time, although I'm also certain that since I couldn't rationalise it as self-defence I'd be feeling a terrible weight of guilt for the rest of my life.

I'm not sure I would do it, though. I might, but I'm near certain that I could not rationally convince myself that it was morally right.

Essentially, I'd do just about anything, no matter how immoral, if I thought the end result was justified.

EDIT: As for the second moral dilemna, I'd do it, without a shadow of a doubt. I just hope I would give the possessions I gained to help improve or save other lives.

[ Monday, November 08, 2004 09:45: Message edited by: Love the Sin, Hate the Sinner ]

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quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

If you think "would you do it?" is an equivalent question to "is it right to do it?", then either you consider yourself to be a perfectly ethical person all the time or your conception of ethics isn't much like mine. To put it another way, the question was not intended to be which course of action is ethical, but whether or not to act ethically at all when doing so would involve considerable harm to someone important to you.

Here's another one that perhaps illustrates the point more vividly:

You're offered an opportunity to double the value of everything you own: a second house, a second car (if you have one), twice as much money in your bank account, etc. However, if you accept the offer, someone, somewhere in the world, a complete stranger to you, will die. Do you take the deal?

(The sting in the tail of this one, of course, is that by giving away all your possessions, or selling them and giving the proceeds to charities, you could easily save much more than one life. How, if at all, is refusing to do this morally different to accepting the above offer?)

Hmm. Well, I'm worth no more than $1000 on good day. I doubt I could save a single life with that.
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Killing a man just for the sake of doubling one's wealth? Odious, simply odious, and far worse than killing to buy a loved one a few more years. As for using these ill-gotten gains to save other lives, almost anyone would choose instead to hoard or spend the vast majority of the money, and perhaps donate a piddling sum to charity. People, in general, cannot be expected to be generous. This is why welfare is so necessary.

I'd never do it, and seeing that so many of you that aren't TM would be quite willing to kill for wealth shocks and disturbs me. It would seem that all the never-ending strife on Earth has truly cheapened human life in the eyes of the people.

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