Cyber Culture/ What is real?
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4942
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written Thursday, October 21 2004 17:58
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Since my remotely intelligent topic about Holloween is dying, I guess it is worth a shot making another one in hopes it will flourish. What do you all think about... talking to people online. I mean, I am stating my thoughts to a bunch of complete strangers. It is weird, isn't it? Another thing is, do we care about the people we might IM or bash online, or are they just faceless weirdos? In a way, the person is just a part of your imagination, not real. They are nothing but a few lines of text and maybe a picture or two. So what is real then? They talk to us, we see their picture, but do they really exist until we meet them in person? I don't know if I am making sense, just let me know and I will try to clarify so we can all talk... -------------------- Wham Bam Shizam Posts: 247 | Registered: Monday, September 6 2004 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5009
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written Thursday, October 21 2004 18:38
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Well I think it comforts a lot of us to talk things out and what better way to share it with someone you don't know. I used to be an avid chatter back on MSN chat but the boards we moderated so it never got too bad. I don't really think it's a good thing to bash someone online but I also feel it is better then doing it to there face because they don't know you there for a lot less hurt feelings. In a way they people you meet are just an imagination because you make them out to be what you precive from they way they talk and act. For instence I played a game called graal for quite a while and I felt like I knew some of these people. I remeber one of them actually gave me some of his passwords and his phone number so he obviousally trusted me. -------------------- Post count 446 + Current. -------------------- I am Dolney, A guy with some level of grammar and The rightful owner of 5000. -------------------- "Well, to be perfectly honest, I'd rather watch grainy video of cheerleaders being introduced to lesbianism." -Jeff Vogel Posts: 30 | Registered: Tuesday, September 21 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Thursday, October 21 2004 20:11
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I've had conspiracy theories on occasion, when I thought everybody on every board I had ever visited was just a simulation intricately arranged by scientists, in order to manipulate and research my personality. Now, I know the truth. You, sirs, are all figments of my imagination! There, how does that sound? :P I don't know about the argument 'observation implies existence'. It may be assumable, for the sake of argument, that something only exists once you can observe it, but how's this: Observation is defined as hearing/seeing/reading/being informed about it in any medium whatsoever. So once I read a post made by Alorael, for instance, I know a board member by the name of Alorael exists and posts, though I don't know anything about him as an actual person (not having seen him personally, or any authentic pictures). The fact that Alorael and Thuryl exist as SW forum accounts does not rule out the possibility that they are identical to Sir Motrax of Exile, or their posts generated by artificial intelligence, respectively. It helps to solve the question if you separate the 'forum identity' from the 'person'. Once you do that, it becomes clear that the 'forum identity' must exist by observation, while the actual person you have no information about. That doesn't apply, of course, to members who are veritable fountains of information about their real lives. But even that can be faked. You didn't know, for example, that I (Arancaytar) am not really a 17-year-old male, but Sarah-Maria Schwarz, a 21-year-old university student with the rather disturbing hobby of crossdressing on internet forums. Or did you? :P [ Tuesday, April 05, 2005 23:34: Message edited by: The Neutral Republic of Aeruillin ] -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3310
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written Thursday, October 21 2004 20:34
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Yes, you are all faceless freaks to me. And please, no more picture threads. I'm very happy with you being faceless freaks. The thought that you would be persons is scary as hell. I mean, I would have to start thinking about what I say. Maybe even care about what you say. And treat you with respect! And stop pretending to be what I'm not! Please, be faceless freaks. Everybody will have a better time. -------------------- ahhahaha i rule u droool Posts: 756 | Registered: Monday, August 4 2003 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, October 21 2004 22:49
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Perhaps people do indeed project an "image" of themselves online, but don't we moderate what we say and don't say in face-to-face conversation as well? To a very significant extent, we choose how we look to others as well; what else are clothes and cosmetics for? Why is a textual representation any less authentic than a physical representation? Maybe online someone lies about her age; she couldn't easily do that in person. Maybe offline she lies about how much time she spends browsing online forums; if she tried to do that on SW, her post count would soon tell a different story. Some of you know things about me that nobody I've met face-to-face knows. [ Thursday, October 21, 2004 22:51: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, October 22 2004 00:21
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I hate it when n00bs tell someone (usually Djur, it seems like) that they should back off and not insult them because "You don't know me." I feel like I have a reasonable understanding of the personalities of a few people on these boards, and while I may not know what all of you look like, and I may not know the peculiar conversational habits that you may have in spoken intercourse, I do know something about what makes some of you tick. That's knowing you, whether you like it or not. I don't think anyone (shut up, FBM) is actually that different on these boards from how he or she is in real life. The mature, intelligent ones are mature and intelligent in life. The idiots are probably idiots in real life. There may be a few exceptions here and there, but they are exceptions and not the rule. I don't know if this is evidence of anything, but I'm usually pretty good at judging people's ages based on their posts (even when their ages are surprising, as with a few of the members of this community). Still, meeting some of you face-to-face would force me to acknowledge some interesting realities. Sometimes I try to imagine Thuryl's posts spoken with an Australian accent and I just start laughing. I don't even know what a Finnish accent sounds like, but I'm sure one of you crazy Finns has one, and it must sound completely different from what I imagine in my head when I read those posts. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3870
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written Friday, October 22 2004 00:25
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quote:Same here. I've told people here stuff about myself I'd never tell anyone face-to-face. We're sort of like Spiderwebbers Anonymous, aren't we? Well, of course the textual representation is a real one, I never implied otherwise. It is just separate from the physical one - you can choose how closely you relate the two, by deciding what information about your physical identity to reveal in your online identity. Also, you can manipulate information online with less effort than in real life. That doesn't make it less real, it just makes it potentially a separate identity. quote:I'd like to think that in real life I am just like on these boards, but sadly, I'm a lurking, antisocial loner who breaks out in sweat if talking to an audience of four people or more. You said you don't believe anyone who claims they're better in real life than here. I claim the reverse. Excusing online behaviour this way is an irrelevant claim I think; we deal with our textual identities here, not our real selves, so it's your online personality that matters. If ben were G. W. Bush in real life, I couldn't care less (well, maybe I could, but it wouldn't surprise me the way it should). [ Friday, October 22, 2004 00:38: Message edited by: Some old guy ] -------------------- "Toleration is not the opposite of intoleration, but is the counterfeit of it. Both are despotisms. The one assumes to itself the right of withholding liberty of conscience, and the other of granting it." ---Thomas Paine Posts: 156 | Registered: Thursday, January 8 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Friday, October 22 2004 02:07
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Communicating on a board has one distinct advantage over talking person to person: you read and write at your individual convenience. Nobody calls when you are in bed or in a hurry. It is always you who determine the moment, when you look up what's new the board. In addition, there is no danger of being obliged to do anything. This allows more openness - you do not run the risk of spill-over of political disagreement into a neighbor dispute. Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3310
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written Friday, October 22 2004 02:25
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quote:I'm not nearly as witty in real life. EDIT: I dare you to say it. [ Friday, October 22, 2004 02:26: Message edited by: Kreshweed ] -------------------- ahhahaha i rule u droool Posts: 756 | Registered: Monday, August 4 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 3442
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written Friday, October 22 2004 03:44
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quote:I agree. People are usually waht they say they are. If someone is an idiot (and on occasion I have been among them..) it stands to reason that they are like that in "real life". The reason I post here is the chance to make new friends. It isn't everyday I communicate with an American or German, and for me it is like travelling around, and sharing information between people. Similarly. I have got to know people. I have realised what makes many of you "tick", and would be able to recognise you without your usual name. If that isn't knowing someone, I don't know what is... In response to Mad Mezzulah's last statment, not seeing someone isn't the same as not knowing. I feel I know Arancaytar, or whatever he's calling himself these days, pretty well and consider him a friend, even though I have never seen him, and I'm sure he feels the same (hopefully!). [ Friday, October 22, 2004 03:45: Message edited by: SupaNik ] -------------------- "I am a living sign..." Thus endeth this post. Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Friday, October 22 2004 04:45
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quote:So I guess that makes you a quarter-wit, eh? -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4942
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written Friday, October 22 2004 07:42
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Well, after watching the movie The Matrix, and after my dad taught a class about it, I began to think what reality is. (The first one was pretty good, the other two sucked really bad) As Morpheus (sp?) said, reality can just be electro magnetic signals (or something like that) to the brain. If that is so, than if we make a machine real enough, than it will experience "reality." The whole notion of different accounts come in play as well. We can assume different identities, and in a sense, be different people. t SupaNik: I agree. I come on here to meet friends, partially. Though I think a dangerous thing to want to be someone's friend, and becoming attatched to that. For example, I would love to meet Thuryl in heh, "real life". He seems like a really cool dude and has helped me out in the past. But I don't even know he cares to meet me. So if I dwell on that, I would get mighty depressed, wouldn't I? So I guess attatchment to our views on people plays a role as well. If I do meet Thuryl, he might not be the same as I pictured him. And in real life, he might ignore me, and not give a sh*t about me, which would be mighty depressing as well. Also relative to preconcieved notions, I can relate to someone's house, or a place. I have a picture in my mind of what it looks like. But of course, when I see it, it will be different, and may dampen my original enthusiasm. Hmmm... a better example is christmas. You really want BoA for christmas. You told your parents you want it, and under the tree, you see a small package and you just KNOW it is BoA. But when you open it, it is Exile I. You are dissapointed, and your experience with Exile I will be ruined because you know you really wanted BoA. So I think it is important to realize attatchments, and erase preconceived notions. PS, We should all get together and have a party that lasts like a week. :P [ Friday, October 22, 2004 10:16: Message edited by: Mad Mezzulah ] -------------------- Wham Bam Shizam Posts: 247 | Registered: Monday, September 6 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Friday, October 22 2004 10:58
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quote:You have not yet experienced the joys of Instant Messenger, have you? The thing is likely to go off whenever I'm in a hurry or in bed - of course you can ignore the call, but the immediacy is no different from a phone call. As for being obliged to do something... once you become an active member of a community, there's a powerful drive to contribute to the welfare of that community, probably motivated by the drive to increase your social status and reputation. It is that which keeps people awake at freakish hours of the night updating their BoE websites or answering questions on the forum, and motivates them to spend hours compressing and emailing files that somebody cannot download. I am familiar with that feeling of duty, and I've recognized it in many members on occasion. quote:I'm quite comfortable with being called Arancaytar or Aran still. I've just joined the great crowd that changed their board names regularly. That said, I'd like to confirm that I feel the same. :) quote:That would be a large party... and there would likely be some people there I consider immensely disturbing. :P Nonetheless, it sounds like a good idea, only probably impossible to implement. There's hardly a time throughout the year when everyone of us has time to go travelling to the other end of the world, and a lot of people are still in school and can't set their own vacation days. -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4942
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written Friday, October 22 2004 11:15
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Yeah, it is impossible, but it was a cool idea. I myself am not independent of my parentals yet and I doubt they would let me go somewhere to meet a bunch of strangers. But it would be nice though, even if we had one in each country, or a big one for the US and Canada. I am not as tech-savvy as most of you are, and have not had the opportunity to help a member of the community out. But if someone asks, I will try my best to help out. -------------------- Wham Bam Shizam Posts: 247 | Registered: Monday, September 6 2004 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Friday, October 22 2004 12:13
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Sorry, despite all you guys' greatest hope, I'm not Bush. Sorry. :( Hmmmmmm, maybe our party should be in Finland---at TGM's house. That's what I say. -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 618
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written Friday, October 22 2004 13:35
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quote:You just had to bring me into this didn't you? Grrr... Well, point being that here I often aggrieve certain people. In r/l I am too polite to do so. There, I thrive on socialisation, that is my breakfast, lunch and tea. A good meal is nothing compared to the company you take it in. Online, I couldn't give a damn what someone, who, in my eyes, is an ididot, thinks. In conclusion: "what the heck do you think you know about practical psychology?" -------------------- Aut Tace Aut Loquere Meliora Silencio Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, October 22 2004 13:45
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I suspect it's not so much that you're polite as that you don't like getting beaten up. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 618
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written Friday, October 22 2004 14:03
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Considering I live in a town full of short-arses, who wouldn't know what a fight was, even if you demonstrated on them, that is not any concern of mine. It's just not nice being unfriendly to people. -------------------- Aut Tace Aut Loquere Meliora Silencio Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Saturday, October 23 2004 01:43
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MMmmhh. Only a day ago, I learned on the Santharian forums (the one I linked to in my signature; it's a small world creation and roleplaying project) that one long-term member there had died a week ago - she was stabbed to death in her apartment. :( It has made me reconsider this question under a new angle: How closely is real life related to the reality on an online society? Obviously, events in the real world will have an impact on this virtual reality, but for what events is this true? And in some cases, what *are* the immediate consequences for the society - in case of the death of a member, it's not exactly a very direct process that leads to the other members learning of that. In this case, the announcement was made by the admin, who was emailed by another member, who had been contacted by the mother of the deceased: A complicated chain that might not even have held if her mother hadn't known about her online friends. In that case, we would have been forced to wonder what happened to this member who had been posting regularly as little as a day ago. This is only one, the less important part of the question, though. The other part is the reaction of the other members. Would an 'online death' affect you the way it would in real life? If, for example, you saw someone posting here (in this case likely my father, who's also around somewhere on these boards) that I'd been flattened by a car, or jumped off a bridge, what would your reaction be? Disbelief? "Good Riddance"? :P -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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BoE Posse
Member # 112
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written Saturday, October 23 2004 02:25
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Small people are often better fighters than big ones, I think. Reason being, small people have to fight much more often. People will usually avoid picking a fight with someone of decent size. It actually takes practice to learn to hurt someone - the instinctive reaction, even when you are being attacked, is to hesitate. Or to hit them, because that's what you do, isn't it? And then not know what to do next. Um, yeah, topic. I think the internet is a fascinating culture. Since there's pretty much no image to worry about (a screen name, most of which are nonsense anyway), true personality comes out much quicker. I know more about Edwin Thompson or Lucien McMahon than most of the people I went to school with. I don't know how tall they are, what their favorite foods are, or any of that silly surface stuff that we spend so much time on in the real world, but I know a lot of the important things. If I were to ring my mate Mike Naismith on the phone right now to talk about some deep emotional problem I had (not that I ever have those), he wouldn't know how to react. Certainly he wouldn't be any help. If I were to find Thuryl's number and call a guy I'd never met, okay, it'd be a bit weird, but we already have a relationship and enough of an understanding of how each other experiences the world that we could have a REAL conversation - like I've never had with many people I've known in real life for years. So which is REALLY knowing the other person? That said, as much as the internet entices a person to reveal about himself, it also conceals a lot. I know there's a ton of stuff about me - Important Stuff, that would definitely throw a few people here - that most my friends in real life know, but no one here does. EDIT: Just saw the last post. Very interesting point. I'm not really sure how I would react. I don't think it would really make much of an impact on me. But that probably says more about me than anything. I remember learning that a guy I knew fairly well up in Queensland had died of a heart attack, and I hardly felt a thing. I felt worried that I wasn't more worried, mainly. [ Saturday, October 23, 2004 02:40: Message edited by: The Creator ] -------------------- Rate my scenarios! Areni Revenge To Live in Fear Deadly Goblins Ugantan Nightmare Isle of Boredom Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1993
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written Saturday, October 23 2004 08:23
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quote::( I surely would be very sad, because I knew you a little bit. I'd miss your presence at SW and probably I would try to implement your character into a scenario to give you eternal life. There is no big difference between virtual and real representation, as Thuryl mentioned. The quality of contacts is equal; to be part of an online community can give you the same security as having real friends or a family. It's - according to Methylphenidate - even more comfortable: You have not to dress to go outside, to ride your bike through streaming rain to the party and to endure obnoxious sound and shallow talk to get your social caressing units. Online you can skip a topic, if you are not interested. This might be at least unkind in real communication. -------------------- ^ö^ I was a cannibal for twenty-five years. For the rest I have been a vegetarian. George Bernard Shaw Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, October 23 2004 09:12
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I have learned that an online friend died as well, and from what I saw and felt, it's no different from losing a friend that you've met in person. There was mourning, even a virtual funeral. I agree that you get to know someone very well online. I'm not sure I'd say that you know them better than you would be meeting in person, because I've never had any way to compare, but it's possible. Somewhat relatedly, I consider this a good reason for goodbye topics. They may be irritating when someone who you don't know at all posts one (would you care if a stranger told you he was moving away?), I'd rather know that someone left than be left wondering what happened. After the aforementioned death, I spent the next few months worrying about everyone I didn't hear from including friends I know in person but don't see frequently. —Alorael, who would contend that it doesn't really matter whether or not you know the "real" persona of an online acquaintance as long as your constructed version is consistent. If you think you're communicating and you're happy, good for you. It only becomes a problem when you mix the online with the real world and find that it doesn't match at all, and I suspect that this would be a fairly infrequent occurrence. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4942
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written Saturday, October 23 2004 11:37
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Well, I guess I kind of underestimated online communities. I didn't think there was such a "real" presence online. I used to think that the whole internet thing was kind of bad, and would fry your brain. I have found that you all are not together in a conspiracy to ruin my potential to do other things besides stare at a screen. I can find really good friends online, that I might meet one day meet. YOU ALL ARE SOOO GREAT! Except for FBM. (Just kidding.) -------------------- Wham Bam Shizam Posts: 247 | Registered: Monday, September 6 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Saturday, October 23 2004 13:09
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And if this topic inspired that realization (as it did to me), then I'd say it was a total success, one the like of which we rarely see in Spiderweb General topics nowadays. I for my part am glad to see the occasional bits of wisdom among all this Exile vs Avernum, How To Spell Vahnatai, and What Are You Currently Wearing. Go General! :) Alo, I can sympathize with that feeling - I have had horrible premonitions and foreboding before when online contacts didn't call for a long time, and that was before this happened... By the way, her husband has been arrested and made a confession. They had a quarrel, and he says he lost control of himself. It is even more sad because they had only just married and moved to Canada from Chile - he had joined the board on her behalf, and they appeared such a happy couple. I haven't seen much use in goodbye topics before, but I see your point. I suppose it depends on how well you know the member, and that is a matter of perspective. spy, I'm glad to see I'm not unilaterally hated here. :D I agree an online community is more comfortable because it allows more personal freedom and sovereignty in how and when to make social contact. On the other hand, maybe it loses some of its closeness: Since the day I have been able to set up an IRC client, I've always looked for the chatroom of a community I was in. Simply because, while this medium allows for long, rambling thoughts and arguments (a specialty of mine), the instant messenger offers more immediacy, closer to a real conversation. Maybe worthy of note: With many people, I get along better in AIM conversations than on this board. -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Sunday, October 24 2004 05:46
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Sadly, I find myself sympathising with FBM. You can't behave quite as shabbily towards others in real life as on the internet and not merely because of cowardice. Your social sphere in real life is not as large as your potential social sphere on the internet. Yes, it's fun being a complete heel in real life, but if you do it too repetitively, you end up with no friends, nobody who'll have a conversation with you. And let's be honest, it's not as fun being a bastard when you do it all the time. Whereas on the internet, you have a degree of anonymity and you are a few clicks away from all manner of communities. Granted, trolling is less satisfying because the trolled is to you just some writing on the monitor and they can find it easier to ignore you. And if you do overstep the mark, you can just move on to the next community. In cyberspace, there is no obligation to be pleasant. -------------------- Voice of Reasonable Morality Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |