Michael Moore - Unfairenheit 9/11

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AuthorTopic: Michael Moore - Unfairenheit 9/11
Shock Trooper
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I'll start by saying that I have a strong personal distaste for Michael Moore in the first place, but I still think anyone who clapped for 10 minutes after seeing his most recent movie should read this article. I feel it's been a while since I've seen a political discussion on these boards, so I felt like starting one. So, discuss.

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Posts: 277 | Registered: Tuesday, August 13 2002 07:00
Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
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Moore is an idiot. What is there to discuss?

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Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00
Shock Trooper
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Well, obviously not everyone agrees. His movie is selling out in theatres across the country. I can always count on the Spidweb boards for differing viewpoints, and the best way to solidify your own arguements is to present them to someone who disagrees and discuss the differences of opinion. If you never discuss your viewpoints with someone who disagrees, how can you ever know if what you believe is flawed?

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Posts: 277 | Registered: Tuesday, August 13 2002 07:00
Shock Trooper
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no comment...
Posts: 249 | Registered: Saturday, July 26 2003 07:00
Master
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i would argue, but i don't feel like it. i'll wait for other forum leftists to do that. IMAGE(tongue00.gif)

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Posts: 3323 | Registered: Thursday, April 25 2002 07:00
Apprentice
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quote:
Originally written by *Sound Effect*:

His movie is selling out in theatres across the country.
People need something to laugh at. IMAGE(wink0000.gif)

I don't like him. (in case you could'int tell)
Posts: 14 | Registered: Saturday, June 19 2004 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3719
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Anything that is controversial will sell out theatres everytime.
We could all paste together some 'facts', make a crappy digi-cam movie about a touchy subject, and be rich.
Don't laugh, the Blair witch project did ok with it's amateur equipment IMAGE(smile000.gif)

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Posts: 294 | Registered: Monday, November 24 2003 08:00
Babelicious
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I haven't seen the film, so I'll withhold judgement. I'm not a fan of Moore's (he's a terrible representation of liberalism when compared to Chomsky and other left intellectuals), but Chris Hitchens is no less tendentious.
Like Moore, he makes good points - such as his treatment of Mother Teresa in "The Missionary Position." He's still in general a neoconservative hack.

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Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Bob's Big Date
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You people should be proud of yourselves. To date I don't think I've seen anyone throw so many maledictions at the underdog without feeling even a little self-conscious.

An accomplishment, to be certain.

Oh, and Moore contradicts himself? Boo hoo. Call me, please, when a president who is basically in bed with socialists invades a country without the assent of either his own people or the international community, and changes the causus belli two or three times after the fact.

Or, possibly, when said president tries to promote 'traditional marriage' and yet has nothing to say about his biggest media constituents running 'reality programs' in which women compete for a man's hand in marriage under the mistaken belief he is rich.

Or maybe when he tries to assert America's philosophical background as a Christian country and takes money from the Moonies?

Hmm. Okay. Send me a phone call, a letter, an email, or whatever when all that happens, and I'll curse Moore up and down the road. Until then, shut up and leave those of us with a conscience the hell alone, okay?

[ Sunday, June 27, 2004 17:53: Message edited by: George A. Custer Declares You To Be ]

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AnamaFreak (3:59:56 AM): Shounen-ai to the MAX
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Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Shock Trooper
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I dont like that guy
As for fairenheit 9/11, id rather watch barney IMAGE(eek00000.gif) and thats saying alot IMAGE(wink0000.gif)

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Posts: 249 | Registered: Saturday, July 26 2003 07:00
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:rolleyes:

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AnamaFreak (3:59:56 AM): Shounen-ai to the MAX
Misogynism is the wave of the future,
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Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
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Underdog, Alec? Since when is Michael Moore the underdog? And what, exactly, should we feel self-conscious about?

Also, I fail to see why you count Moore among "those of us with a conscience" while implying that the rest of us are without. He does far more injustice to the facts and the naked truth than the president you despise so much.

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And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it.
-The Last Pendragon

TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL

In case of emergency, break glass.
Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00
Bob's Big Date
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quote:
Originally written by Lady Davida:

Underdog, Alec? Since when is Michael Moore the underdog?Right, my bad. Here I was thinking we had a reactionary president and 90% of the media were right of center.

And what, exactly, should we feel self-conscious about?

Your statement answers itself without any further garnishing, so I shall forego adding any.

Also, I fail to see why you count Moore among "those of us with a conscience" while implying that the rest of us are without. He does far more injustice to the facts and the naked truth than the president you despise so much.

Thank you for explaining why making a politically slanted documentary is not morally preferable to killing thousands of people for political clout.



[ Sunday, June 27, 2004 19:05: Message edited by: George A. Custer Declares You To Be ]

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AnamaFreak (3:59:56 AM): Shounen-ai to the MAX
Misogynism is the wave of the future,
but it sure pisses the womenfolk off.

Shocking, isn't it?
Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Off With Their Heads
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Michael Moore is a jerk and biased and plays incredible games with the truth. However, so is and does George W. Bush. Moore makes movies. Bush runs our country. I'll take Moore over Bush any day.

Still, honestly, Moore is a jerk and sometimes I wish he'd shut up.

And while we're at it, Reagan's recent death reminded me of how much I found virtually every act and statement of that man completely loathsome. We haven't had a good Republican president since Ike. (And here I am assuming that he was good -- I know nothing to the contrary, but I don't know much to begin with.)

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Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
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Our last good Republican president, in my estimation, was T.R.

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Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00
Shake Before Using
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(on the original discussion topic)

Paying money to be fed propaganda is something I can do without.
Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Infiltrator
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Disclaimer: I'm not from the U.S. instead I'm from a country (Venezuela) with a dictator with a very spurious veil of democratic president. Also, I haven't seen this film.

However, I've seen all of Moore's stuff since Roger and Me. I've disagreed on a number of occassion with the way he presents truth, and how he manipulates to fit his predetermined ideals.

Nevertheless, I'm glad he exists and that he still puts his work out there. Because what he is doing is stirring people to dialogue (however that dialogue occurs)

I wish more people did this. I wish I could see more reality shows dealing with a more, shall I say pertinent, view of reality than what the immense majority of those shows depict.

I like the fact that in a forum for a series of computer games that exist under the radar I can see something like this taking place.

We (here in Venezuela for sure, I am not going to include any other countries, that's up to you) are in the hell we are because there's no political culture. No desire to involve in the political process, apathy and comformism have possessed us. Vote for whoever you please, but do so. By not doing so, by abstaining, one contributes to the neverending mediocrity that has taken hold of so many countries.

On the other hand, this movie may not change anything. I have a feeling people went to see it because his prior work won at the Cannes and he gave that anti-Bush speech at the Oscars and due to the subject matter, etc. Maybe all it will do is be the flavor of the month.

It seems I've just babbled incoherently and have added nothing of use to this topic. Hmmm.

Take care!

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Posts: 604 | Registered: Sunday, June 20 2004 07:00
Shock Trooper
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Alec, your analysis essentially totals up to: drinking is bad so smoking should be okay. Drinking and smoking are both bad and the existence of one doesn't make the other any better. I wouldn't argue that Bush was right in Iraq, and his homophobic constitutional amendment is abhorrent, as is his acceptance of money from a variety of shadey sources. That doesn't change the fact that Michael Moore's inflammatory "documentary" is slap in the face of honest journalism, or whatever you want to call what he does.

quote:
Until then, shut up and leave those of us with a conscience the hell alone, okay?
This wasn't meant to be a personal attack, and I find it offensive for you to assume someone who disagrees with Michael Moore and seeks only to find truth in a world of lies has no conscience.

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Posts: 277 | Registered: Tuesday, August 13 2002 07:00
Lifecrafter
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I haven't seen the film either. But...

I don't like Michael Moore as a person. He seems way too self-righteuos and, more or less, stupid. This might all be an act, of course, but I don't like his style, anyway.

Some of his films are hilarious. Mostly because of his style, as controversial as this might sound. I think he brings up important things, but the really good thing is that even if he spreads propaganda, at least people become aware of the discussion. Intelligent people don't rely on one side of the story anyway, but form their judgement after having heard at least two points of view. So Moore does a good job.
Posts: 756 | Registered: Monday, August 4 2003 07:00
Shock Trooper
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Yes, Moore does a good job of inciting intelligent people to attack him, and probably brings us closer to the truth in the end, but that doesn't justify omitting details, taking things out of context, or simply fabricating them in the name of a search for the truth. Plus, many people aren't intelligent enough to recognize the fallacies of his movie. If his point was valid, one would be led to think he could make it without distorting reality.

His flaming inablity to recognize facts he disagrees with is embodied in the following excerpt from an MSNBC interview.
quote:
TAPPER: You declare in the film that Hussein?s regime had never killed an American?

MOORE: That isn?t what I said. Quote the movie directly.

TAPPER: What is the quote exactly?

MOORE: ?Murdered.? The government of Iraq did not commit a premeditated murder on an American citizen. I?d like you to point out one.

TAPPER: If the government of Iraq permitted a terrorist named Abu Nidal who is certainly responsible for killing Americans to have Iraq as a safe haven; if Saddam Hussein funded suicide bombers in Israel who did kill Americans; if the Iraqi police ? now this is not a murder but it?s a plan to murder ? to assassinate President Bush which at the time merited airstrikes from President Clinton once that plot was discovered; does that not belie your claim that the Iraqi government never murdered an American or never had a hand in murdering an American?

MOORE: No, because nothing you just said is proof that the Iraqi government ever murdered an American citizen. And I am still waiting for you to present that proof.



[ Sunday, June 27, 2004 21:38: Message edited by: *Sound Effect* ]

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Posts: 277 | Registered: Tuesday, August 13 2002 07:00
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YAY4ISOLATIONISM!!1! now will you please wipe the drool from my bib?

Aside from ignoring the obvious, even when it's shoved in his face like a streaker on enhancement pills, Moore doesn't seem to care about any non-Americans who were killed by Saddam. Unless they were killed by Bush, of course.

EDIT: Wrong words, if you want to know.

[ Sunday, June 27, 2004 22:27: Message edited by: Lady Davida ]

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And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it.
-The Last Pendragon

TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL

In case of emergency, break glass.
Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00
Bob's Big Date
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Kelandon: Ike Eisenhower was well-meaning, reasonably progressive, and frequently practiced 'nuclear brinksmanship', a policy by which the US threatened states which seem to be swinging towards the Soviet side with nuclear death, with the implicit assumption being that the Soviets would never respond in kind.
This means that, of all the alternate universes floating around, most of those in which the 20th century features a nuclear war had it happen in the Eisenhower administration, as a direct result of his actions.

TR was a good president. He was also a rabid jingoist, and held a sort of nationalism that most people nowadays would consider repulsive sacred.
There's a good case for saying that the first and last good Republican was Lincoln.

EDIT: Sir David, your point is immanently fair: Saddam Hussein was a mass murderer.
So's Kim Jong-Il. He has also admitted to having a nuclear weapons program, at the rate it's going he'll end up creating about two city-killers a year -- a huge number for the last remaining Stalinist nation on Earth, mind -- and North Korea already produces missiles capable of striking the California coast.
Which is why we have toppled his bloody and inherently dangerous regime and suffered years of military occupation in order to restore democracy to the region -- oh, wait...

Sound Effect: Discrediting the message because Moore, himself, is a jerk... it smacks of dirty pool, don't you think?

re. your earlier post: It was aimed at Sir David, who is an enthusiastic cheerleader for Halliburton and Co. (aka the Bush II administration).

For such an inflammatory, untruthful, and awful movie, it's certainly broken a lot of records w.r.t. documentaries...

[ Sunday, June 27, 2004 22:52: Message edited by: George A. Custer Declares You To Be ]

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AnamaFreak (3:59:56 AM): Shounen-ai to the MAX
Misogynism is the wave of the future,
but it sure pisses the womenfolk off.

Shocking, isn't it?
Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Warrior
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quote:
Originally written by George A. Custer Declares You To Be:

Call me, please, when a president who is basically in bed with socialists invades a country without the assent of either his own people or the international community, and changes the causus belli two or three times after the fact.
I ahppen to object wit that statement Custer...

The simple fact is that EVERYONE wanted it, at the time. is seemed like a good idea, move into Iraq, take his nukes if he had them, (cause he woulda used them) and move out. Unfortunaly we arent moving out. That is the only thing i have a problem with myself. As a soldier currently stationed in South Korea, the North Korean threat is everpresent, yet it palls to the threat of being deployed to Iraq where you could see your best friend get blown to bits by a militant who is in a bad mood.

Sory for quoting something so early in the topic, but it had to be said.

[ Monday, June 28, 2004 02:45: Message edited by: CyberWolf ]

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Posts: 101 | Registered: Monday, September 9 2002 07:00
Apprentice
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Mmm, South Korea.

That having been said, for someone whom Michael Moore was not even on the radar two years ago, thus being unable to critique his earlier work against his current, I have never seen such a one sided look at an issue before. For its humor value, I'd rate it just under Cable Guy. As to its biting political commentary *makes quote marks in the air* just this.

Meh

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Posts: 28 | Registered: Tuesday, May 18 2004 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by CyberWolf:

The simple fact is that EVERYONE wanted it, at the time. is seemed like a good idea, move into Iraq, take his nukes if he had them, (cause he woulda used them) and move out.
This just isn't true. Opinion polls in the USA before the war began consistently showed more people opposed to the war than in favour of it. And even GWB never claimed Iraq had functional nuclear weapons.
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00

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