Happy Martin Luther King, Jr. Day!
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Saturday, January 24 2004 13:28
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quote:A demand for equalizing priveleges. kthxbye Djur, I read everything on that page. Digging them out of the hole and then piling more dirt on to put them on a hill is not equality. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. Incaseofemergency,breakglass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 3149
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written Saturday, January 24 2004 13:33
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No, no. Affirmative action is how you get them out of the hole. The civil rights movement just managed to stop the digging. -------------------- You are my precious thing Thing of speed and beauty, You are my precious thing As long as you remain beneath me -- Big Black Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Saturday, January 24 2004 13:33
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AA counts as 'equalizing'. The black race is going to remain mired in poverty if we hold them up to the strict standards given to the majority. The majority gets by with the majority of its population undereducated and underpaid; the minority is already chained by poverty and ignorance, and can't afford to slip any farther. Then again, the suffering of those white, affluent C-average students who are pushed out of good colleges because of Affirmative Action must be causing Rev. King to turn over in his grave. -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1249
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written Saturday, January 24 2004 15:10
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In the US (as in Finland) A) Those who get better jobs tend to come from better off families. B) Blacks tend to get worse grades in schools. They tend to get paid less and get poorer jobs. I don't know how exactly Affirmative Action works, frankly. Still, there has to be some way to get away from that kind of a vicious circle. Women tend to be discriminated against a bit similarily to different ethnic groups in the western societies. In Finland - and we are a country which has been proud of its equality - it's been studied that in schools, boys tend to get good grades with less achievements than girls. There are many, many subtle ways of discriminating. Personal relations, for one. I don't think anyone has a perfect solution to discrimination (one that wouldn't enable some other discrimination) but still, something has to be done. ...Hmmm, now I see I'm slightly repeating what Custer just said... Posts: 259 | Registered: Saturday, June 1 2002 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Saturday, January 24 2004 18:16
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quote:Milu (is that your commonly-used name?), with affirmative action, you get the same problem - African Americans with less achievements than whites can get into college more easily. It's not the same as getting good grades with less achievements, of course, but it leads to the same thing. Anyway, why are we setting blacks appart as different, needing special priveleges? Many are downtrodden and discriminated against - how does setting them apart and making them more priveleged than other Americans stop that? I mean, I can understand why cripples would get aid, for instance - they can't do what non-cripples can do, and should not be held to the same expectations. But blacks - unless they're crippled or whatever, something that has nothing to do with the color of their skin - blacks can work just as well if not better than whites, and should really need no more aid than anyone else would get. For instance, I have a rich African American friend. He comes from a wealthy family, a good family, and is an intelligent person, and does well in school. He is not in as many advanced classes as I am, and I get slightly better grades than he does, generally. He also has considerably more money than I do, and could probably live off his parents' fortune, if he decided that he didn't want to do any work. And yet, even after all this, he is more likely to get into a college than I am. And why is this? Not because he is weak, or poor, or downtrodden, or smarter. It is because of the color of his skin. Now, listen, I understand that the percentage of African Americans living in poverty is higher than that of Caucasians. But if we are going to give anyone an advantage, it should be based on the poverty, not the race. If this results in a higher percentage of African Americans getting aid than Caucasians, then so be it. But nobody should be at an advantage, nor at a disadvantage, based on the color of their skin. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. Incaseofemergency,breakglass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
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written Saturday, January 24 2004 18:28
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quote:Milu (is that your commonly-used name?), with affirmative action, you get the same problem - African Americans with less achievements than whites can get into college more easily. It's not the same as getting good grades with less achievements, of course, but it leads to the same thing. Anyway, why are we setting blacks appart as different, needing special priveleges? Many are downtrodden and discriminated against - how does setting them apart and making them more priveleged than other Americans stop that? I mean, I can understand why cripples would get aid, for instance - they can't do what non-cripples can do, and should not be held to the same expectations. But blacks - unless they're crippled or whatever, something that has nothing to do with the color of their skin - blacks can work just as well if not better than whites, and should really need no more aid than anyone else would get. Here's where your logic falls apart. Physically, this holds true. Mentally, many blacks are raised in poorer, less-educated environments; they typically receive worse schooling and have fewer opportunities to engage in extracirricular activities, which hurts their chances to receive higher education, which in turn hurts the next generation. It's a vicious cycle. For instance, I have a rich African American friend. He comes from a wealthy family, a good family, and is an intelligent person, and does well in school. He is not in as many advanced classes as I am, and I get slightly better grades than he does, generally. He also has considerably more money than I do, and could probably live off his parents' fortune, if he decided that he didn't want to do any work. And yet, even after all this, he is more likely to get into a college than I am. And why is this? Not because he is weak, or poor, or downtrodden, or smarter. It is because of the color of his skin. He is a representative of a general problem. In addition, if you're doing better than him, it's not you who will suffer for him getting into a college, it's the one at the bottom who would barely make the cut anyway. Now, listen, I understand that the percentage of African Americans living in poverty is higher than that of Caucasians. But if we are going to give anyone an advantage, it should be based on the poverty, not the race. If this results in a higher percentage of African Americans getting aid than Caucasians, then so be it. But nobody should be at an advantage, nor at a disadvantage, based on the color of their skin. I support both. I don't see any reason to free a people who have been hobbled for centuries and expect them to run a marathon a year later except indignant, greedy appeals to 'fair treatment' by whites who feel they are being cheated by the system. [/quote]Also, getting a black person to agree that AA is wrong doesn't make it wrong any more than my being for AA means that all white people are for it. [ Saturday, January 24, 2004 18:43: Message edited by: Custer Custer Revolution ] -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Sunday, January 25 2004 02:41
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I think that affluent whites and affluent blacks and affluent Asians should be judged on the one hand, and the poor blacks, whites, Asians, hispanics, and anyone else who goes to a bad school should be judged on the other hand. It makes more sense that way, and it still accomplishes the same thing, but with even more benefits for all of the downtrodden. The real problem is making the determination of where the line is drawn between the groups. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Vahnatai Did Do It desperance.net - We're Everywhere The Arena - God Will Sort The Dead ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Sunday, January 25 2004 06:46
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Amen to that. Alec, you've said repeatedly that the problem of African Americans is poverty. So why should we base aid on race? Why shouldn't we base it on poverty? Poor African Americans should get more help than rich Caucasians. Poor Caucasians should get more help than rich African Amreicans. That is it. Base aid on poverty, not on race. As I said, if that means more African Americans get aid, then so be it. But the decisive factor should not be skin color. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. Incaseofemergency,breakglass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 798
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written Sunday, January 25 2004 10:26
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I believe that even if a race has been opressed for many years. Yes they deserve sympothy. But nobody, no matter how much there ancestors where opressed, nobody deservs someone else to owe them a day's living. I think The slaves did want freedom, and for there decendents to do much better than they could ever dream of. But I do not think they wanted there decendents to get high ranking jobs and acceptance into Harvard or Princeton simply because they are black. I'm not making this up but there are Black-African Americans who do not believe in Affirmitive action. Because they believe that they should work for everything they get, and if they are handed something that they shouldn't get but work for, they believe they should not be handed that in the first place. Now If MLK did fight for his people to be handed equality rather than work for equality, than maybe we shouldn't give Dr. Martin Luther King JR a day after all. Now will somebody please block this topic before someone really takes off the gloves and things get very unpleasnt [ Sunday, January 25, 2004 10:35: Message edited by: The Lord of Evil ] -------------------- Look Ma, I'm banned! Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Sunday, January 25 2004 10:36
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quote:I said both ought to be decisive factors, and I meant it. The black community is threatened with oblivion due to centuries of mistreatment; treating them as if they are already on an equal footing with the white community is a fast and sweet-tasting road back to the near-slavery they suffered under in the first half of the 20th century. I'm sorry for the well-off C student who is not going to be able to buy a Camaro to impress his white-trash girlfriend thanks to that goddamn Affirmative Action, I really am. But quite frankly, there are worse problems in the world than the white man's burden. JF: Saying that someone has to fight to gain equality to be respected is patently ridiculous if it can be gained without the bloodshed and the struggle. Fighting for a cause is a coward's way out; it puts the task of settling things peacefully on the next generation, who have enough things to worry about as is. [ Sunday, January 25, 2004 10:39: Message edited by: Custer Custer Revolution ] -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3922
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written Sunday, January 25 2004 13:05
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quote:Wow. You don't think that you are just a little racist??? _files/eek.gif) Why do harbor such animosity towards those with lighter skin?Here's a thought. Those who advocate racism against whites are implying that racism against blacks is also OK. How can someone complain about Jim Crow laws and then advocate affirmative action? It boggles the mind... Anyway, I don't see anyone clamoring for handouts to Jews. And if memory serves me right, they have been oppressed for much longer than blacks... [ Sunday, January 25, 2004 13:07: Message edited by: trailblazer ] Posts: 6 | Registered: Sunday, January 25 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, January 25 2004 13:20
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Jews were never systematically opressed by the United States and Judaism is something one chooses for oneself. It's also not immediately obvious like dark skin. And right now there is really no large category of poor, uneducated Jews. There are poor, uneducated Jews, but they aren't a demographic group of their own. Jim Crow laws harmed blacks without really bringing any benefit to whites. Affirmative action, for all the complaints it receives, aids blacks without significantly harming whites. There are a few highly publicized cases involving AA, but acceptance into college is such a bizarre, arbitrary process that AA is the least of its problems. —Alorael, who doesn't see what's so racist about Alec's comments. If you're getting C's, whose fault is it really when you don't get into the Ivy League school despite family money? Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3922
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written Sunday, January 25 2004 13:40
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quote:not true quote:this is true, but those who do the oppressing do not care about the actual religion of the victim. those of Jewish descent have also been oppressed. if you were more than 1/16 Jewish in Nazi Germany, you were sent to the concentration camps. quote:it is when you're forced to wear a yellow star quote:and why is this? when did Jews EVER benefit from affirmative action? they succeeded in spite of racism. there is no reason why blacks can't do the same. quote:I don't think it's clear-cut that affirmative action helps blacks. When everyone knows that you were admitted under a lower standard, you have to work extra-hard to prove yourself. And the system does not separate the deserving blacks from the non-deserving blacks. Smart blacks are lumped in with the AA admits. Who benefits? Anyway, I could argue that sitting in the back of the bus did not significantly harm blacks. We have separate restrooms for men and women. What is so bad about a separate black restroom? I could argue these things, but I won't. I find Jim Crow laws abhorrent. I am just consistent in my views. It doesn't matter what race is hurt or helped. I am against ALL such racist practices. Posts: 6 | Registered: Sunday, January 25 2004 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3922
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written Sunday, January 25 2004 13:44
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quote:I find the phrase "white-trash" racist. If I said some of the things about blacks that is said about whites, I would be kicked off of these boards.... Posts: 6 | Registered: Sunday, January 25 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, January 25 2004 17:14
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Name me one time that the United States has, as a whole, assigned Jews to a position of inferiority. There has been discrimination, of course. There has been widespread discrimination. It was never institutionalized like the racism against blacks. To the best of my knowledge, Jews were never subject to slavery or Jim Crow laws. The Holocaust was an aberration, not the norm. Yes, Jews were labeled and exterminated. That happened in a handful of countries. America's Jews all chose to immigrate. They were not captured and imported as free labor. They were never regarded as something other than human. Yes, they struggled with racism, but they started off ahead of the blacks and were up against a much lesser degree of hatred. There was a time when it was illegal to educate blacks. When have Jews ever faced anything like that in the USA? AA does not admit anyone who does not meet the standards that all students are held to. It simply gives blacks a higher priority assuming they meet the minimum criteria. They don't have to work harder, or they shouldn't; black students are not out of their league when they are accepted, AA or no AA. —Alorael, who would say that the intent of Jim Crow was malicious. It helped nobody and created a system obviously harmful to a large group. Affirmative action is benevolent in intent, obviously helps a group, and has little negative effect. The key is that it does not label blacks as superior. Affirmative action comes from the acknowledgement of an existing problem. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
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written Sunday, January 25 2004 17:31
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quote:I didn't know we were expected to like sectoids. [ Sunday, January 25, 2004 17:54: Message edited by: Custer Custer Revolution ] -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Sunday, January 25 2004 17:31
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quote:I know that I'm guilty of making wild statements with no evident basis, but really, Alec, how could you be such a hypocrite? In other words, please explain yourself. I really don't understand how racial equality leads to racism and oppression. quote:Well, I'm sorry for the well-off C student too, Alec. But I'm quite a bit more sorry for the not-so-well-off A student who has been getting 3 or 4 hours of sleep a night, because when he gets home from his two jobs, which still haven't given him enough for an old rust bucket, he actually has to study and do his homework. The hard-working, white student, living in poverty, whose work and study results in nothing, nothing but a trailor and a few years at a community college, if he's lucky. And I can't say I feel too sorry for the rich, bright, and popular but lazy young man who can happily get by with a B in school, due to the fact that the color of his skin will get him into the college he wants, no matter how hard he works for it. I really can't say I feel too sorry for that poor, poor, downtrodden African American. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. Incaseofemergency,breakglass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
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written Sunday, January 25 2004 17:34
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EDIT: Double-post, obvious. Better safe than sorry. [ Sunday, January 25, 2004 17:35: Message edited by: Sir David ] -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. Incaseofemergency,breakglass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
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written Sunday, January 25 2004 17:36
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quote:PS: I'd like to take the time to note that in Sweden, the sort of ludicrous poverty you've described is nonextant, and going to college is free for anyone who can pass the exams, which means their system bypasses BOTH of the issues we're wrestling with. They have an average income tax rate of about 55%; housing, food, clothing, schooling, and health care are guaranteed by the state. Of course, people can't become ridiculously over-wealthy there, so I suppose our system must be better, eh? [ Sunday, January 25, 2004 17:51: Message edited by: Custer Custer Revolution ] -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3916
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written Sunday, January 25 2004 18:00
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The Lord of Evil: >>I had no Idea that somebody who was 45 years old was on this website. Well so PorkLoin you're a Baby Boomer, I thought this site was mostly GenX. Well as much as I'd love to tease you about your Age I should stay on topic.<< Hi Lord. Feel free to tease away -- it's all good. Yes, some of us "old" people play videogames -- I play quite a bit, like 40 to 80 hours a week. Being able to play at work helps a lot. A few hairs turn grey, a few levels gained.... I remember when there were no automatic teller machines, and if short of money, one might have to wait until Monday morning when the banks opened. >>I honestly do not believe Malcom X should have his own street named after him. But that's just my opinion. I personally believe Malcom X was racist towards the White Americans. We must also remember Malcom X was originally a drug dealer. And yes due to the fact he was African American or black alot of oportunities was not availible to him. But also there was decisions that he made in life that lead him to become a drugdealer as well. And Mr.X blamed the White People entirely for hime to become a DrugDealer. And I think that's totally wrong of him.<< Agreed - he was a whiner and a hypocrite. Nevertheless, oftentimes people want a symbol, want a name to follow, worship, etc., and there's no necessary saintlike qualities involved. Also while I'm on this topic there are Black Hatred Groups that are just as bad as White Hatred Groups. But Somehow what the Black Hatred Groups do is somehow justified by Librals. And I think that's BS. I personally believe that a Black Hatred Group is just as guilty to Racisim and hate crimes as a White Hatred Group. But many Librals for some reason beg to differ. Now I only want to say one thing to White Hatred Groups and Black Hatred Groups and some people who think the White Hatred groups actions are justified and some people who think the Black Hatred Groups actions are justified -- which are probably on this site -- Can't we all just get along. Yeah -- racism is racism. I would say that no, we really can't all just get along. There are cycles of inclusionism and exclusionism, and in the US we're coming off some relatively "good times" when things have been more inclusionistic. I see coming years of relatively economic "bad times," and a darkening of the social and cultural mood, and more trouble between races, more regionalism, etc. Doug Posts: 18 | Registered: Thursday, January 22 2004 08:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Sunday, January 25 2004 18:36
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Alec. IT. WAS. AN. EXAMPLE. All I'm trying to say is that, based on affirmative action, minority members can get what they don't need, while majority members miss out on what they do need. Now, I'm sure that some minority members do need the aid - maybe a lot of them do. But there are also majority members who need the same aid, and won't get it, based on the color of their skin. If college aid were based on poverty rather than race, this would not be a problem. And as I've been saying for the last few pages, this probably would end up helping the minorities more than the majority. But it would also help those of the majority who need the help. Base aid on poverty, not race. That is a perfectly reasonable solution, one whose effects may not be so different from the current system on who gets the aid and who doesn't. But it would be far better, on principle; we would be giving aid by who needs it, not by who has the right color of skin. Aside from that, I agree on the taxes, which is one of the reasons I get angry when people call me a Republican, rather than a conservative or a moderate. Tax cuts, especially tax cuts for the rich, are not going to help our country. Alec, you say that I've got more conservative viewpoints than I think I do. Maybe so, but I think I've also got more liberal viewpoints than you think I do. Incidentally, I was just talking to my black friend about this. He originally said that affirmative action is needed, but said later in the conversation that we shouldn't need affirmative action at all, and agreed with what I've been saying about aid based on poverty rather than race. He also said that the problem is in grades k-12, not in college acceptance, and that if we'd focus on equality of the students and the quality of the education in grade schools, it would do a far better job of fixing this problem than affirmative action ever could. Just some food for thought. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. Incaseofemergency,breakglass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
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written Sunday, January 25 2004 19:03
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If AA doesn't hurt good students, why is it needed? Aren't there enough good black students that would be accepted anyway? Isn't holding them to a lower standard implying that they are stupid or something??? Anyway, can you support your claim that AA only hurts C students? A lot of A students at my high school were displaced by B students of the right color. Posts: 6 | Registered: Sunday, January 25 2004 08:00 |
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Babelicious
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written Sunday, January 25 2004 19:33
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The race bonus tends to be rather small. For example, a family friend used to work in admissions at a local university. Depending on the quotas being targeted, race gave a 1 to 5-point bonus; this was, at most, roughly the equivalent of 0.1 difference in GPA. All other things being equal, a 3.9 African-American might win out over a 4.0 Caucasian. What horror. Hard quotas are a bad idea. Rather, a system of sliding bonuses should be implemented (as in most universities) to target quotas statistically -- if too few blacks are being selected, increase the bonus a little. Of course, I believe in free higher education for all Americans, so it's rather moot. And David: Poor Caucasians can get tons of scholarship, aid and grant money. If my parents made about $10,000 less, I'd have no problem affording university. As it is, I'm screwed. -------------------- You are my precious thing Thing of speed and beauty, You are my precious thing As long as you remain beneath me -- Big Black Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
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written Monday, January 26 2004 07:50
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Have one of them quit their job or get one with a salary of $10,000 less than what they have nowa, if it would really help... espcially if they know someone at their work right now who can get them their job back as soon as you have the bonus. Just in case people don't understand, I'm kidding. Djur, that university must be different - a friend of mine told me that at his college, race is pretty much secondary only to SAT scores. He might exaggerate, but not that much... And once again, people should not be picked by race. Maybe if too few poor people are being selected, then the bonus could be increased for that. Alec, I'm not ignoring the problem, I just don't see how a system of inequality solves the problem of inequality. And I find it ironic that you end your rant by calling me a ranting idiot. _files/tongue.gif) -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. Incaseofemergency,breakglass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 798
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written Monday, January 26 2004 15:02
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Let me try to explain my belief. Let's say the Black community gets offended if the White piece in chess moves first. (and with how thing's are going I would not be surprised if that happend) so lets say the Black community wants it changed to the black piece moving first instead of the White piece. Well for that matter isn't the black piece moving first instead of the white piece just as bad as the White piece moving first instead of the black piece. And by the way not all Black people are poor and undeducated. There are Black people who are rather wealthy and educated. They just don't go to this site which is predominitly Ignorant White people. Oh yes and Alex you mentiond a group called White Trash. Well from the way you are talking you are White Trash yourself. -------------------- Look Ma, I'm banned! Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00 |