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3D BOA Editor (Windows) in Blades of Avernum Editor
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Monday, November 22 2004 09:25 Profile #21
Not at all. It's simple to run for 5 miles up a mountain -- you point yourself and start pushing your legs. It's not easy at all.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
3D BOA Editor (Windows) in Blades of Avernum
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Monday, November 22 2004 09:25 Profile #21
Not at all. It's simple to run for 5 miles up a mountain -- you point yourself and start pushing your legs. It's not easy at all.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum Editor
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Monday, November 22 2004 09:23 Profile #48
The consensus has been the latter for a very long time. It's one of the major points of contention between the community and Vogel.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Monday, November 22 2004 09:23 Profile #48
The consensus has been the latter for a very long time. It's one of the major points of contention between the community and Vogel.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum Editor
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Monday, November 22 2004 08:44 Profile #37
Yes, it is. If you said "I'm using INTERCAL to develop my new office suite!" anyone would be justified in saying "INTERCAL sucks, use a real language."

Regarding tabbed controls -- I was working off what you said. I progressed beyond VB and its ilk in 1999, so I have no idea what RB supports except what you said.

Why do you ask "Should I rewrite my tools in language X?" if you're not interested in hearing criticisms of that language? Are you the only person entitled to an opinion in the wide world of computer science?
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Monday, November 22 2004 08:44 Profile #37
Yes, it is. If you said "I'm using INTERCAL to develop my new office suite!" anyone would be justified in saying "INTERCAL sucks, use a real language."

Regarding tabbed controls -- I was working off what you said. I progressed beyond VB and its ilk in 1999, so I have no idea what RB supports except what you said.

Why do you ask "Should I rewrite my tools in language X?" if you're not interested in hearing criticisms of that language? Are you the only person entitled to an opinion in the wide world of computer science?
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum Editor
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Monday, November 22 2004 08:39 Profile #40
quote:
Originally written by Arenaqs:

Programming is not that hard a concept to grasp, and Avernumscript is a very simple scripting system. I would have preferred a Python derivative, but this is still a very, very easy script language.
Spoken like a true programmer.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Monday, November 22 2004 08:39 Profile #40
quote:
Originally written by Arenaqs:

Programming is not that hard a concept to grasp, and Avernumscript is a very simple scripting system. I would have preferred a Python derivative, but this is still a very, very easy script language.
Spoken like a true programmer.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
Tell me if you like programming. . . in General
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Monday, November 22 2004 08:35 Profile #36
> Perhaps so, but it's just another statistic. Might as well ask people if they do it.>
> Furthermore, Javascript is scripting, not programming, methinks.
What's the difference? You can make standalone applications with Javascript; it's just a case of getting the right libraries together.

>Have you heard of the querystring?
Yes. Let me refactor, then: a POST or a GET. They're both roundtrips.
> Perhaps, but the general point of 'easy'
> scripting is that it has some sort of downside
> (e.g. performance),
Really good optimizing JIT compilers for Java are as fast as C++. Sometimes, they're faster.
> raw flexibility (advanced memory handling?)
You mean pointer arithmetic? Please, it's 2004. Good practice uses as little pointer arithmetic as possible. With today's computers, mucking with unterminated raw data is foolish and atavistic.

> NO. NO. Java/ECMAScript is COMPLETELY different
> from Java. Heck, I doubt Java/ECMAScript even IS
> a Java variant.
It isn't.

> In fact, JavaScript's real name is ECMAScript -
> I believe the name was changed due to legal
> issues or something.
ECMAscript is the official scripting language of the ECMA standards body, more or less. Javascript is a superset of ECMAscript that includes the DOM and other extra functionality.

> JavaScript is just the common term.
It was and still is Javascript.

> That's pretty rediculous. JavaScript is generally
> equatable to the power of BoA scripting (keeping > in mind that they were designed for different
> things).
Um, Javascript has real string manipulation. It has arrays. It is a complete, capable programming language, and BoA is not.
Seriously. As far as languages go, Javascript far outstrips Avernumscript.

> IIRC, programming languages include non-RAD
> (i.e. not realBASIC) tools that compile to
> executables. Scripting languages are languages
> that are RAD tools that compile to executables,
> or languages that require an interpreter (e.g.
> PHP).

Wikipedia disagrees and so do I. My definition is that a programming language is a language used to develop standalone applications, while a scripting language is used as an extension language for a pre-existing application. An example is Lua in Baldur's Gate -- that's a scripting language. When used in browsers, Javascript is also a scripting language. When used standalone, it is a programming language.

Programming tells the computer what to do; scripting tells an application what to do.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum Editor
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 09:33 Profile #34
How does my belief that the BASIC family of languages are poor have anything to do with you? You yourself said that the REALbasic toolkit doesn't allow tabbed controls -- to me, that's a pretty major flaw.

It's like if you said "I'm thinking of buying some nice Safeway brand cutlery," and I said "Buy something decent like Wusthof." The reasonable response would not be to shriek "WHY ARE YOU BEING SO OFFENSIVE? DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M DOING FOR YOU?"

Kelandon is right. Your motives for posting this thread are not clear, since it seems that you're going to take any suggestions as insults.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 09:33 Profile #34
How does my belief that the BASIC family of languages are poor have anything to do with you? You yourself said that the REALbasic toolkit doesn't allow tabbed controls -- to me, that's a pretty major flaw.

It's like if you said "I'm thinking of buying some nice Safeway brand cutlery," and I said "Buy something decent like Wusthof." The reasonable response would not be to shriek "WHY ARE YOU BEING SO OFFENSIVE? DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M DOING FOR YOU?"

Kelandon is right. Your motives for posting this thread are not clear, since it seems that you're going to take any suggestions as insults.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum Editor
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Saturday, November 20 2004 22:43 Profile #24
Are you the type of person that, when tapped on the shoulder, spins around with a left hook in mid-air? Because that's how you're coming off. Extremely touchy and defensive.

It hasn't been my intention to be "offensive" towards you in this or any other thread. In this thread, I just offered advice (which you requested via email as well); in the only other one in which we have had any contact, we had a disagreement and what I would characterize as a "lively debate" regarding the relative merits of different languages. You're the one who, immediately, accused me of being under the influence of drugs for holding a particular opinion on programming languages. Your baseless ad hominem attacks have only gotten worse.

By the way, if you think that being around in '98 and having your "unbeatable monster" whipped by Thuryl makes you any more respectable than, say, TGM or anyone else, you're sadly mistaken. Perhaps if you had been around since then. Perhaps if you had made any real contribution since. Perhaps if, upon returning, you hadn't presented yourself as incredibly arrogant and irrational.

Seniority requires presence. Even if you had that, it still wouldn't protect you from being seen as an ass if you act like an ass. A little bit of humility goes a long way, you know.

[ Saturday, November 20, 2004 22:47: Message edited by: Walker, Texas Corpse ]
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Saturday, November 20 2004 22:43 Profile #24
Are you the type of person that, when tapped on the shoulder, spins around with a left hook in mid-air? Because that's how you're coming off. Extremely touchy and defensive.

It hasn't been my intention to be "offensive" towards you in this or any other thread. In this thread, I just offered advice (which you requested via email as well); in the only other one in which we have had any contact, we had a disagreement and what I would characterize as a "lively debate" regarding the relative merits of different languages. You're the one who, immediately, accused me of being under the influence of drugs for holding a particular opinion on programming languages. Your baseless ad hominem attacks have only gotten worse.

By the way, if you think that being around in '98 and having your "unbeatable monster" whipped by Thuryl makes you any more respectable than, say, TGM or anyone else, you're sadly mistaken. Perhaps if you had been around since then. Perhaps if you had made any real contribution since. Perhaps if, upon returning, you hadn't presented yourself as incredibly arrogant and irrational.

Seniority requires presence. Even if you had that, it still wouldn't protect you from being seen as an ass if you act like an ass. A little bit of humility goes a long way, you know.

[ Saturday, November 20, 2004 22:47: Message edited by: Walker, Texas Corpse ]
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum Editor
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Saturday, November 20 2004 22:32 Profile #11
quote:
Originally written by Arenquacks:

The more simplified something is, the less useful it can be.
IMAGE(http://www.cookshop.uk.com/Victorinox_52003_WEB_small.jpg)
IMAGE(http://home.insight.rr.com/jkmckee/lever.jpg)

Other examples: alphabetic writing vs. ideographic, the wheel.

Complex systems are simply what arises out of the interactions of simple components. Even your computer is, at its base, a series of aggregations of simple components. All of your software is composed out of a rather simple, limited set of hardware instructions.

Complexity does not render utility; flexibility does. It is a fatal error (albeit common to programmers) to conflate the two.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Saturday, November 20 2004 22:32 Profile #11
quote:
Originally written by Arenquacks:

The more simplified something is, the less useful it can be.
IMAGE(http://www.cookshop.uk.com/Victorinox_52003_WEB_small.jpg)
IMAGE(http://home.insight.rr.com/jkmckee/lever.jpg)

Other examples: alphabetic writing vs. ideographic, the wheel.

Complex systems are simply what arises out of the interactions of simple components. Even your computer is, at its base, a series of aggregations of simple components. All of your software is composed out of a rather simple, limited set of hardware instructions.

Complexity does not render utility; flexibility does. It is a fatal error (albeit common to programmers) to conflate the two.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
Roots Released! in Blades of Exile
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Friday, November 19 2004 15:28 Profile #13
By the way, Gizmo, it isn't difficult at all to make magic-less scenarios in Pygmalion. Rulesets #1 (Science Fiction) and #2 (Historical - Medieval) are magic-free, although #0 does include magic.

Just letting you know.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum Editor
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Friday, November 19 2004 09:21 Profile #11
Jesus. Do you have to be so defensive?

In any case, wxWidgets doesn't require Gtk+ on Windows. As far as I can remember, wxWindows was out on Win32 before Gtk+ for Win32 existed.

Regardless, even the Unix port doesn't make you do anything directly with Gtk+. That's why it's a cross-platform library.

wxPython and XRCed together make a very fine rapid development platform. I see no reason why trivial applications like yours would take more than a week or two to implement with them.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Friday, November 19 2004 09:21 Profile #11
Jesus. Do you have to be so defensive?

In any case, wxWidgets doesn't require Gtk+ on Windows. As far as I can remember, wxWindows was out on Win32 before Gtk+ for Win32 existed.

Regardless, even the Unix port doesn't make you do anything directly with Gtk+. That's why it's a cross-platform library.

wxPython and XRCed together make a very fine rapid development platform. I see no reason why trivial applications like yours would take more than a week or two to implement with them.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
Late one... in General
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Thursday, November 18 2004 21:13 Profile #39
quote:
Originally written by Kreshweed:

And excluding the chance you get raped by a big burly spaniard.
Senhor.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum Editor
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Thursday, November 18 2004 19:51 Profile #9
Um, wxWidgets doesn't force you to do ANYTHING with Gtk+. It doesn't even USE Gtk+ on your target platforms, so I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. (Ironic.)

I thought you said you were a Python man. Use wxPython; it's extremely mature.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Thursday, November 18 2004 19:51 Profile #9
Um, wxWidgets doesn't force you to do ANYTHING with Gtk+. It doesn't even USE Gtk+ on your target platforms, so I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. (Ironic.)

I thought you said you were a Python man. Use wxPython; it's extremely mature.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
The official BoA photo exhibition in Blades of Avernum
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Thursday, November 18 2004 12:31 Profile #16
An opportunity to show everyone just what an overweight fatuous fanboi you are, that is.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
3D BOA Editor (Windows) in Blades of Avernum Editor
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Thursday, November 18 2004 09:14 Profile #13
Well, the most important part would be to extract the scenario-saving parts of the editor and turn it into a good library. Then, you could write an editor for any platform with any language and any toolkit.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
3D BOA Editor (Windows) in Blades of Avernum
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Thursday, November 18 2004 09:14 Profile #13
Well, the most important part would be to extract the scenario-saving parts of the editor and turn it into a good library. Then, you could write an editor for any platform with any language and any toolkit.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum Editor
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Wednesday, November 17 2004 20:12 Profile #3
Why not use a cross-platform toolkit like wxWidgets that works in a decent language? Then you wouldn't have to port anything.

(Don't make your software suck just to port it to the Mac.)

[ Wednesday, November 17, 2004 20:12: Message edited by: Walker, Texas Corpse ]
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00

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