Profile for Slarty
| Field | Value |
|---|---|
| Displayed name | Slarty |
| Member number | 261 |
| Title | Raven v. Writing Desk |
| Postcount | 3560 |
| Homepage | http://www.stripcreator.com/comics/slartyvsdesk/ |
| Registered | Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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| Author | Recent posts |
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| Trait/race bonus effects in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 11:06
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I just did some testing to find out how trait bonuses change as you gain levels, and it turns out the level 1 bonuses are a little bit misleading. There are basically three tracks: (1) Weak: +1 point every 10 levels, starting at level 0 (2) Medium: +1 point every 6 levels, starting at level 0 with 1 additional point (3) Strong: +1 point every 4 levels, starting at level 0 Most bonuses follow the medium track; the only weak bonuses are to First Aid (Nimble Fingers), Gymnastics (Nephil), and Magical Efficiency (Natural Mage). There are also only three strong bonuses, and they are all from Divinely Touched! The main significance of this is that Divinely Touched is much better than it looks. For the first 15 levels it isn't any better than the other traits. But at level 32, it seems that a Divinely Touched character will have +9 bonuses to Blademaster, Sharpshooter, and Magery. Elite Warriors, Natural Mages, and so on at the same level will have just a respectable +6 bonus. That's the equivalent of a MASSIVE number of skill points, especially if you're buying those skills anyway. Hmm, another reason not to take Fast on Feet :) For non-skill-based bonuses, the only one that shows up on the character sheet is the Slith bonus to Resist Fire. This is a flat 10% that never goes up -- not a very good bonus at all. I haven't been able to substantiate the defensive bonus claims of Divinely Touched, Fast on Feet, Thick Skin, or Good Constitution, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Q: Has anyone observed how these bonuses interact with the 30 point limit that reportedly applies to some (or all?) buyable skills like Tool Use? -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Quick Strike & Fast on Feet algorithm - done in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, December 22 2005 05:49
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*pets his algorithm* I had faith in you, my pretty! *ahem* Anyway -- yay for testing :) Haste, btw, does not give +4 AP, haste gives +50% AP, calculated after all other bonuses and penalties to AP are applied. And you can indeed equip 3 +1 items -- 1 chest armor, 1 footwear, and 1 spear or shield. So you should be able to get a natural 14 AP and a hasted 21 AP. It takes three times the investment of getting to 10/15 AP, but hey... -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Quick Strike & Fast on Feet algorithm - done in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, December 21 2005 19:28
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Ahh, that was just one of the high-powered damage messages from MUDs I played; it always made me laugh. 'You graze the lamia.' 'You *disembowel* the lamia.' And so on. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Quick Strike & Fast on Feet algorithm - done in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, December 21 2005 18:43
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You *defenestrate* the nephil shaman! -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Quick Strike & Fast on Feet algorithm - done in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, December 21 2005 18:36
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*nod* I know what you mean, kuc. Somehow RPGs bring out the research scientist in me. I have notes on my computer covering years and years of these little projects. Quick Strike seems nice and simple compared with trying to figure out how stat increases were handed out in Dragon Warrior III... or how the heck anything worked in Dungeon Master. I loved that game, but its engine often surprised me, to say the least. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Quick Strike & Fast on Feet algorithm - done in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, December 21 2005 18:21
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But there's a lot of anecdotal evidence for bless. First, it seems pretty obvious that it makes numbers go up significantly :) Second, one of Jeff's big pet peeves about other RPGs, when he first made Exile, was that blessing effects were usually ineffectual. I doubt he's reversed his position on that one. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Quick Strike & Fast on Feet algorithm - done in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, December 21 2005 18:14
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Synergy -- great testing. Important question: In your non-hasted test WHAT is the difference between the PCs you tested at QS 3 and 4, and the QS 7 PC? The results are completely different for the QS 7 guy. While the QS 3 and 4 results conform to my algorithm, more or less, he is way off from them as well as from my own QS 7 results. Are you SURE he doesn't have Fast on Feet or weird equipment or... I dunno, anything else? -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Quick Strike & Fast on Feet algorithm - done in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, December 21 2005 16:41
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Really, Thuryl? I can only say ARGH! Hey, Vlish and Synergy, since you guys get different results from me, can you do me a favor? Duplicate the test I performed. New game, naked human, no traits, put all your skill points into dex, melee, QS which should get you QS 5. Run through a bunch of turns. 'iwanttobestronger' to level 10 and QS 10, and try again. And tell me if it looks like the results I was getting. (For reference: 5 QS produced 24@8, 22@9, 4@10, 10 QS produced 13@8, 24@9, 13@10) If the results are similar, there is some other factor we need to take into account. If they aren't, then Thuryl has pinpointed the cause and I will throw my hands up in despair :) [ Wednesday, December 21, 2005 16:43: Message edited by: Slartucker ] -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Quick Strike & Fast on Feet algorithm - done in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, December 21 2005 16:25
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Hmm. The 9 being rare thing is weird. Having Fast on Feet spreads out the results a lot more, but 9 should never be less common than BOTH 8 and 10. Hmm. Hmm hmm hmm. What's doing this?!? -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Quick Strike & Fast on Feet algorithm - done in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, December 21 2005 16:14
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Thanks for the reminder Synergy, I was going to account for your test but forgot. Hmm. Crap :) I'm not sure. I don't think level is a factor. My testing was done with a naked human, with no traits, and no stats improved except for the requisite Dex and Melee, and QS itself. Testing through 10 QS was done at level 10 (though this produced the same results as at level 1, at least for QS 5). Above that I tested at level 28. Also, he didn't fight, he just ended his turn repeatedly. I think it must be the case that another skill can also provide bonus AP. I am going to guess it is a separate process, since my algorithm works pretty well in a controlled environment -- though that could be wrong. Your results aren't that far from my predicted results shifted up by somewhat less than 1 AP: You had approximately: 09 - 41% 10 - 53% 11 - 6% Algorithm would predict: 08 - 42% 09 - 45% 10 - 12% That makes me think that perhaps there is another bonus AP at work with a fairly high chance of succeeding. Could Quick Action do this? -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Forging in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, December 21 2005 15:54
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I was thinking of the fine leather, focus crystals, and so on. Crafting! That's the word I was looking for. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Quick Strike & Fast on Feet algorithm - done in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, December 21 2005 15:28
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Also, since bows can be used at close range, I'd rather just pump one of the archery skills. Melee or pole skill of 6 or whatever, with little or no investment in QA or other melee skills, doesn't seem like it would be better than a well-developed bow attack. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Quick Strike & Fast on Feet algorithm - done in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, December 21 2005 15:24
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With FoF and a few points in QS, you have three chances to get a bonus point; you only need two to succeed in order to get to 10 AP. With FoF + 4 QS for example, you'll get +2 AP or better about 20% of the time. With FoF + 8 QS you'll get +2 or better about 40% of the time. This isn't a -horrible- deal, I'd just much rather use the items and save the skill points for something useful. [ Wednesday, December 21, 2005 15:33: Message edited by: Slartucker ] -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Forging in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, December 21 2005 15:16
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I know it's simpler this time around. Nonetheless, anyone have a list of the possible recipes, so I don't squander my ingredients? -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Quick Strike & Fast on Feet algorithm - done in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, December 21 2005 15:00
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I did some more testing and I believe I can now state precisely what Quick Strike does. On each PC's turn, he gets two independent chances to get +1 AP. Each chance is very close to 5% per point of Quick Strike. This does not explain everything -- there was a little more variation than I would expect, and with 20 Quick Strike I still got 9 AP VERY rarely -- but it works with the averages. This would predict the following: Quick Strike score -- % +0, % +1, % +2 0 -- 100%, 0%, 0% 5 -- 56%, 38%, 6% 10 -- 25%, 50%, 25% 15 -- 6%, 38%, 56% 20 -- 0%, 0%, 100% If there is a maximum chance cap of say 99% that would explain the 9 AP scores I saw with 20 QS. If you only care about getting one bonus AP from Quick Strike, the increased chance of getting +1 or greater for each point of QS you buy begins just below 10% for the first point of QS and drops about 0.5% per point until it ends just above 0% for the 20th point. Fast on Feet seems to provide another independent check for +1 AP, but this one is always 50%. In combination with QS this halves the chance of getting zero bonus AP. So 5 QS + FoF means you're about 72% likely to get a bonus. 10 QS + FoF means you're about 88% likely to get a bonus. In that case, you spent 19 skill points to get an extra attack 22% of the time... then you spent 31 skill points to get one 16% of the time. IMHO, this is further evidence that archers and spellcasters should restrict themselves to the AP-boosting items. It's harder to use extra turns, tactically, if they're inconsistent. Melee fighters on the other hand already rely on a number of other fluctuating random factors, especially Quick Action, so the new inconsistency is insignificant. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Melee Skills Stats in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, December 21 2005 12:31
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1. Getting to 10 AP seems to be the only important thing. 10 AP gives you an extra action, and gets you to 15 AP when hasted for a third action. The power of bows and spells means you don't really need extra to move with. While you could layer items and skills on one character and get to 13.5 for 20 AP when hasted, that seems like a huge waste. 2. A quick look in the script confirms that there are 6 items giving +1 AP (3 armors, 1 spear, 1 shield, 1 footwear). I'm guessing there aren't duplicates in the game (one of these days I'll have to get back to playing it ;) 3. Quick Strike is a moderately priced investment for a fighter (14 for 4, 50 for 10) but expensive for an archer without melee skill (44 for 4, 80 for 10) and prohibitive for a mage (70 for 4, 106 for 10). Therefore: It seems like the easiest models for fairly consistent 10 AP turns would be: 2 melee warriors + 2 mages or archers: warriors get Fast on Feet, 4-6 points of Quick Strike, and 1 item; mages get 2 items 1 melee warrior + 3 mages or archers: warrior gets Fast on Feet, 8-10 points of Quick Strike; others get 2 items. While spending 44 of your archer's skill points might not seem too bad late game (especially since it reduces the points your warrior would need to spend), going the one item route also requires having Fast on Feet instead of another advantage (likely Divinely Touched). Late game, that means about 4 levels of Sharpshooter (in addition to the phantom DT defense bonus that may or may not exist). So I think I'm ready to start over on Torment. Unfortunately, I still can't find any *remotely* compelling reasons to use Sliths or Humans, so now I need to come up with a reason why my team will be wearing the same skimpy clothing, in strange bright colors. I think the answer is that they're superheroes. Hmm... IT'S CLOBBERIN' TIME! -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Melee Skills Stats in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, December 21 2005 07:41
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Very interesting. Defense is also supposed to affect chance to be hit, isn't it? It's also interesting that you got an average of +1.25 AP out of 7 Quick Strike. My level 1 test with 5 Quick Strike got an average of only +0.6 AP. So either there is a strange and unspidwebby QS effect curve, or something else affects bonus AP as well -- maybe the effect is greater at higher level -- or is it possible gymnastics can give bonus AP? ...WAIT... 13.25 average AP with no boost items, were you HASTED? Detail! If AP boosting works anything like in previous engines that should multiply the bonus AP just like the regular AP. So the Quick Strike effect is closer to 1/9. How many AP-boosting items are there in this game? I am starting to doubt the worthwhileness of investing in Quick Strike at all... -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Archery; and races in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, December 20 2005 22:23
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Melee gets quick action and archery doesn't. However, bonus AP (quick strike) will always help archery and will help melee more in focused battles, not so much against regular foes. (Perhaps that's different in Torment, with higher foe hp = more rounds of engagement?) Melee base damage tends to be higher. OTOH, dex (for sharpshooter) has more benefits than strength (for blademaster), and you don't have to pump an unwanted weapon skill either. But the targetting advantage of a bow is huge. I dunno, I'll wait and see how it goes. But I keep thinking of the G3 agent, how putting every last point into battle magic and spellcraft made a monster, whereas simply putting most points there was a lot less effective. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Quick Strike, Quick Action, and traits in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, December 20 2005 14:25
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I just re-checked, and Nimber Fingers *does* increase First Aid. My new character with no skill points spent (Custom class) and Nimble Fingers has 2 Tool Use and 1 First Aid. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Quick Strike, Quick Action, and traits in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, December 20 2005 14:21
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Here's another question: the to-hit penalty from armor, does that apply to all attacks or just to melee combat? I know in the past it was just melee, but I have noticed a lot of the manual descriptions talking about things that affect to-hit, to-dodge, or damage for magic and archery, as well as melee. [ Tuesday, December 20, 2005 14:23: Message edited by: Slartucker ] -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Quick Strike, Quick Action, and traits in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, December 20 2005 14:12
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EDIT: Okay, maybe there aren't any missing :) Well, here's the list anyway. Nephil: Bows, Throws, Gymnastics Slith: Pole Elite Warrior: Parry, Blademaster Divinely Touched: Blademaster, Magery, Sharpshooter Natural Mage: Mage Spells, Magic Efficiency Pure Spirit: Priest Spells, Magic Efficiency Deadeye: Sharpshooter Nimber Fingers: Tool Use, First Aid Fast on Feet: (?) Good Con: (?) Thick Skin: (?) Strong Will: (?) [ Tuesday, December 20, 2005 14:17: Message edited by: Slartucker ] -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Quick Strike, Quick Action, and traits in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, December 20 2005 14:02
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I just did some quick testing involving 3 freshly created nephils: one with the Fast on Feet trait, one with 5 points in Quick Strike, and one with both. I did 20 rounds of combat, with the following results: Fast on Feet: AP 8: 10/20 AP 9: 10/20 Average: +0.5 AP Quick Strike 5: AP 8: 12/20 AP 9: 4/20 AP10: 4/20 Average: +0.6 AP Both: AP 8: 3/20 AP 9: 10/20 AP10: 6/20 AP11: 1/20 Average: +1.25 AP However, I have no idea if the effect of Fast on Feet increases with level like the other traits. Can anyone confirm or deny this? My other question concerns Divinely Touched. The trait description claims it makes you "very resistant to damage." Is that true? Is it just a hidden parry bonus, or what? How useful is the bonus? Basically, it now seems that there are at least three traits in competition for each of my PCs: Fast on Feet Divinely Touched Elite Warrior / Deadeye / Natural Mage / Pure Spirit Fast on Feet + Quick Strike seems useful for any character, really, but even moreso when every character can easily get something out of a bow. Quick Strike might be a stretch for mages, but FoF still has potential if combined with +AP items. On the other hand, if I am making a tank, Elite Warrior and Divinely Touched both claim to provide defensive bonuses. Or do I just go all out with gymnastics? While I'm at it, how significant is the armor use effect from Natural Mage? -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Archery; and races in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, December 20 2005 13:45
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Hiya Kel. *tips hat* Life is good. Edit: on second thought, this deserves a new thread. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Archery; and races in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, December 20 2005 13:18
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2 attacks consistently? I assumed that Fast on Feet was as inconsistent as ever. I remember it providing an extra AP maybe 1 in 3 or 4 rounds -- is it better now? Quick Strike, I guess, is fairly consistent with enough investment? -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
| Trainers in Avernum 4 | |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, December 20 2005 13:03
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Why'd you skimp on spells? Easier to just find the level three ones or what? -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |