You should win stuff by watching [long]
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Apprentice
Member # 3568
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written Sunday, May 13 2007 07:23
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More GF5 musings. This expands on my musings in the "chosen ending" thread. It'd be nice if creations (as well as other allies) had a secondary attack button so that they too could switch attacks. This has been a gripe of mine about fire creations since GF1, that it can be a real pain to get them to bite people. This would also enable you to have sidekicks with more interesting support abilities. Liberal shaper stuff: * The more liberal shapers should be concerned about popular dis-satisfaction with their war. So they'd have idealistic young shapers establish hospices for care of the sick and injured. One of the idealistic young shapers should join you, if you can finish her quests - she casts acid spray, her alternate attack is healing craft. * The liberal shapers want leverage over the rebels, so that they can force their terms when the rebels surrender. * They want you to carry messages to and from the more moderate rebels. * The liberal shapers have more competent serviles working for them, kinda like the awakened from GF 1. They have informal contacts with the rebels that they want you to facilitate. They also want you to convince the other wild serviles to become "tame". * The liberal shapers want the radical rebels killed or undermined. * The liberal shapers want to accomodate the sholai, but keep them from learning to shape. * If you can expose the conservative shapers ties to the rebel radicals, they think that's great. Conservative Shaper stuff: * The conservative approach to dis-satisfication is to kill those who criticize them; a lot of people are unhappy with the way the war is dragging on, so there are plenty of traitors to turn in. With a high leadership and some evidence, you should be able to turn in innocent people (or your rivals) and the conservatives shouldn't know or much care. There's a conservative agent who will join you if you turn enough people in. * The conervative shapers want the radical rebels encouraged to pursue violence, since that'll prevent a negotiated end to hostilities. * They want to expose the liberals for talking to the rebels. * They want rebel infiltrators among their serviles (who are pretty useless and stupid) found and eliminated. * The conservative shapers want rebels killed - *especially* moderate rebels. * The conservative shapers want sholai aid in the war - but eventually they want to subjugate the sholai. Under no circumstances do they want the sholai to learn shaping. * The conservative shapers want the rebels to fight eachother, if that can be arranged. Lesser Mages (not a faction per se): * The mages who do all the crystal stuff ("Lapidaries") are trying to continue their crystal research in spite of the war, which is hard. They're obviously shaper clients, but many of them are rebel sympathizers (if not actually rebels.) If you can help them, they should give you a golem. * The alchemists ("Alchemists") are trying to hold society together. They're heavily involved in the public health and welfare programs that the liberal shapers are instigating. If you can convince them that you're sincere about minimizing casualties, they'll send a juicer mercenary with you - his secondary attack causes him to chug a random pod (so he either buffs or heals himself,) for 3 AP and a pile of spell energy (representing his somewhat limited supply of pods.) * Whoever it is who does the crazy architecture and obviously magic-assisted construction ("Masons") want to explore pre-shaper ruins. One of them is a scholar and will go with you if you bring back an interesting report - besides filling the game's profound need for a hot archeologist chick with glasses, she knows war blessing and speed. I'll brainstorm rebel, sholai and wild servile quests later. Posts: 19 | Registered: Saturday, October 18 2003 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Sunday, May 13 2007 07:45
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Originally by DrPraetorious: quote:That's a good idea. I've wanted that option several times myself. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4574
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written Sunday, May 13 2007 08:38
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quote:Really though, why do you need a secondary attack? The ranged attack is so much better then the melee for magic and fire creations, glaahk excluded. quote:The thing is, the Liberal Shapers are few in number. They are either rebels, or exiles (Sharon, Khrhyk [sp?], Uchitelle). They aren't enough to do anything. quote:Another problem, the Shapers seem to control who has the power of magic. The Trakovite in the Fens of Aziraph (not Khrhyk [sp?]) said he learned all of his magic at a Shaper University. He's obviously not a Shaper. The sages who study crystals either produce weapons, power supplies, or magical tools. The alchemists we have seen in every game are loosely connected, if connected at all. Lastly, the masons... well it seems as if they are just brute force mages. You can't simply lump all magicians of the same practice (other then the Shapers) into a central guild. The Shapers wouldn't allow a competing guild to take up power. -------------------- Pass the sauerkraut and chips please. Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Sunday, May 13 2007 08:51
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Originally by GoldenKing: quote:Because shades are immune to a cryoa's breath, wingbolts and other creations can run out of energy for ranged attacks, drakons and drayks resist fire so a physical attack may be a better option, etc. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Sunday, May 13 2007 09:42
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Also if you are just a little bit off melee range when you are out of spell energy you can lose the attack because the game treats it as a failed missle attack. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3568
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written Sunday, May 13 2007 11:44
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Obviously, what I call "liberal" shapers are the weaker half of the faction. However, a couple of things to consider: * The people you meet while wandering the warzone are those that volunteered to fight a guerilla war against an elite cadre of homicidally insane telepaths and their legion of slavering bioengineered monsters. Now, they have slavering bioengineered monsters of their own - but they've got to be pretty zealous, or they'd be back home where it's safe. This is even mentioned in-game: several complaints about the cowardice of the shapers who don't want to fight. Some of the non-belligerent shapers are probably in favor of negotiation, it's fair to speculate - although maybe most of them are chickenhawks. * The loyalist forces are suffering heavy casualties. I got the impression that they'd lost on the order of half of the shapers they'd deployed, one way or another. That cuts into the support base for the conservative shapers pretty hard. * If the war keeps going, with a continuing and high rate of casualties, one assumes that many of the shapers will see the merit in some kind of negotiation. Even the main-line shapers you deal with in GF 4 are willing to forgive you, personally, the PC - which means a negotiated end to hostilities is not completely out of the question. As for the other magicians - in the opening monologue of GF 1 it specifically mentions that the shapers are the most powerful of the magical guilds - implying that the other magicians are also organized into lesser guilds. In later games we learn that other magicians only operate with shaper sanction, but that doesn't mean they aren't organized somehow. This also makes a lot of sense - learning to shape is pretty clearly a lifetime commitment, it's very difficult, and I get the impression that while shapers can make wands and spray crystals, the more sophisticated stuff is another area of expertise that very few shapers would take the time to master. So it makes sense that the shapers would tolerate teaching and professional organizations to teach skills they need their servants to have. Also, in many ways it's easier to control a group of people - especially educated people - if you give them some organized outlet for their supposed interests which you then control. Posts: 19 | Registered: Saturday, October 18 2003 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Sunday, May 13 2007 13:38
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It doesn't say "guilds," it says "sects." The exact line is: "The Shapers are the oldest, most respected, most secretive, and most powerful of the magical sects." That's the very first line of G1. Since we haven't seen ANY other human magical sects, I think it's safe to assume this has been retconned out. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Sunday, May 13 2007 13:41
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I remember something in G3 about other guilds of mages... Memory hazy, but the inn where you encounter Hoge comes to mind. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Sunday, May 13 2007 13:45
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The word "guild" (including plural and possessive permutations) appears exactly once in all four Geneforge games (I just searched). There's a sign in Valeya (in G4) for a Woodworker's Guild. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3568
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written Sunday, May 13 2007 15:14
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Sorry, "sects" not "guilds". Regardless, I don't think we can assume they've been retconned out. We haven't seen a lot of real civilization, period - all we have is a reference to a "shaper university" which could have faculty from a dozen minor magical sects for all we know. I think it'd be a mistake to read too much into the apparent lack of other magical organizations in the heavily militarized hinterlands where most of the GF games take place. There's not a lot of ambiguity about who is and is not an alchemist, even if the alchemists are poorly organized, or totally dependent on shapers to pick and train them, they've clearly got some kind of formal training and certification in their specific field. Invariably they would have their own political interests - especially if they're stuck in the middle of a civil war. Posts: 19 | Registered: Saturday, October 18 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4574
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written Sunday, May 13 2007 15:22
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quote:Regardless, they don't have any organization. Being an alchemist is like being a literate person. They're to general and individualised to have any organization for what they want as a group. What's more, they have little reason for wanting the war to end. Continued battle will mean more people need to be healed, meaning more profit. -------------------- Pass the sauerkraut and chips please. Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Sunday, May 13 2007 15:27
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I suppose it's possible guilds/sects/whatever exist in some form. But if they had any relevance, power, or size whatsoever, I would expect to have heard something about them in G4, if not the earlier games. G4 does not take place in an isolated corner of the world, not by a longshot. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3568
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written Sunday, May 13 2007 15:28
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Anyway, what quests does the circle of the drayk want you to perform? You get your initial magical powers as a result of an ascetic vision quest - there are additional visionary quests you can perform for various rewards. These rewards come as magical tattoos which cause social problems later in the game, in a fashion similar to (but parallel with) the canisters. Orthodox: * There are humans trying to settle our lands. Kill them and wear their skins! * Find the drakons, bring back their teachings. * Get the shapers and the rebels to kill one another, when they are weakened, we can eject them by force. * Bring back choice sacrifices to the circle. * Prove that the reformists are weak, human-sympathizing apostates. * Drive away the sholai to prove our strength. * Raid passing caravans for loot, slaves and sacrifices. Reformist: * Convince the humans not to settle here - negotiate peaceful co-existence with the distant humans. * Avoid being pulled into the drakons conflicts. * Get the shapers and the rebels to fight somewhere else. * Bring magical objects, treasures and lore to the circle. * Get the orthodox to calm down. * Come to a negotiated arrangement with the sholai. * Make trade agreements with our neighbors to strengthen the prospects of peaceful co-existence. In addition, there are a number of vision-quest type mysterious errands that provide tattoo rewards. You get the rewards from individual drayks. Some of the drayks are pretty insane, some of them find being worshipped by serviles somewhat revolting. None of them want anything to do with the rebels - and most of them would rather keep hiding from the shapers than fight them. Possible tattoo rewards: * Skill increases. * New spells. * Permanent personal regeneration. * Permanent personal spine shield. * Permanent boost to AP. * Permanent boosts to one or another resistance. * Secondary melee attacks. Also, some of the drayks will teach you spells or shaping if they like you. Posts: 19 | Registered: Saturday, October 18 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4574
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written Sunday, May 13 2007 15:46
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quote:These cultist groups are isolated and weak you know? They either exist in the shadows, forgotten lands, or, in G4, the borderlands of a warzone. They are the weed that came in while the gardner was busy. Without a doubt, the Shapers were here first. The Shapers Shaped the serviles after all. Lastly, this would repel the theme of the entire series. Jeff tried something new and exciting once. It was called Nethergate, and it flopped badly. Jeff can't afford to let the company take another blow like that again. Honestly, how many people do you think would buy this game? Not me, I can tell you that much. -------------------- Pass the sauerkraut and chips please. Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3568
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written Sunday, May 13 2007 16:05
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It wouldn't be that much of a departure from the rest of the series to have you play a servile/lifecrafter. You have the *option* of play one in GF4 (although it's the weakest class overall, I'd say.) I should summarize what I had in mind from the previous thread: * Area is wilderness with significant circle-of-the-drayk type infestation. * You go on a vision quest and come back able to shape. * There are ruins there with scads of valuable goodies in them, both sides think they will change the direction of the war. * The shapers, rebels and sholai have all shown up to try and get their hands on the buried treasure. In terms of gameplay this isn't a departure from other GF games at all - it just has four factions instead of two. Posts: 19 | Registered: Saturday, October 18 2003 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Sunday, May 13 2007 16:32
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quote:It just became quite difficult to take you seriously. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4574
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written Sunday, May 13 2007 17:30
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quote:It's not playing as a servile, it's the plot. The whole series has been about the Rebellion, and suddenly we have the crazy thing out of nowhere. The Rebels and Sholai have no reason to be in the plot what so ever. The Sholai are off doing there own thing, while the Rebels are to busy with fighting a monumental war to start some colony in a crazy land. Every rebel they send over there is a rebel that could be better used Shaping an army to combat the Shapers. What's more, how could there be this huge area full of serviles and drayks, if there was not some kind of Shaper there. Your story just doesn't make sense. -------------------- Pass the sauerkraut and chips please. Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3568
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written Sunday, May 13 2007 20:24
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Offtopic: Okay - which of the five classes would you say is the weakest overall? One of the five has to be. Since you no longer benefit as much from high shaping skills early on, I suppose you might say that the assault trooper is weakest. It's certainly my least favorite. And I haven't run through this game as a guardian yet. The servile is tougher than the agent, which if you were actually soloing makes a big difference, but when I played as a servile I died a lot more often simply because I couldn't do as much damage from a safe distance and found myself getting close in. I did both agent and servile as pro-rebel (fire creations exclusively) and found the game much harder as the servile. -- There were drayks on the island in GF 1, where there hadn't been any shapers for some time. Furthermore, drayks are smart and know that the shapers are trying to kill them - so I'd expect any area with few shapers to be rich in drayks very quickly. They may or may not be able to reproduce by laying eggs, once they've escaped into the wild. Obviously there were shapers in this area at one point. For this to make sense we have to assume that the war is going thusly: * The rebels are unable to sustain a direct confrontation. * The rebels are engaging in ongoing guerilla-style resistance, which is proving very expensive for the shapers. * This has been going on for time X, where time X is long enough for it to reach a steady state. * The rebels are much more impressed with the importance of the pre-shaper ruins than the shapers are, so they're willing to expend a lot of forces (relative to their lesser strength) while the shapers aren't willing to just nuke the place from orbit. Anyway, to say that the game would automatically be a commercial flop because the plot takes a left turn is pretty far out there. I don't think that was the issue with nethergate, certainly. Posts: 19 | Registered: Saturday, October 18 2003 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3568
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written Monday, May 14 2007 04:40
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Anyway, to resume brainstorming. The Sholai are very concerned about the military and magical power of the shapers - there's a single sholai expedition but with two leaders, who are rivals. The official leader of the expedition - and ambassador to Terrestria - is a sholai lord who wants a military alliance with the shapers. He also wants to force the shapers into some kind of pact while they are still weakened by the rebellion. * Expose the scheming of his lieutenant. * Hide the scheming of his lieutenant from the shapers. There's a shaper who has been leading his lieutenant on, he wants him dead. * Get information on the military situation. * Help him persuade the shapers to agree to a non-agression pact. * Help his forces fight the rebels to prove their usefulness. His lieutenant - who is a lord of a rival house/clan/lineage whatever - has been in contact with the rebels, but he certainly doesn't want the sholai to get involved on the rebels side (as the rebels are hoping). He wants you to steal shaper secrets for him. If you can deliver rebel shaping lore without having to commit him to anything, great. * Hide his schemes. * A shaper has been leading him on with promises of training - force the shaper to reveal his secrets through blackmail or intimidation or whatever. * Make the military situation seem worse than it is so that the sholai won't intervene. * Help him convince the other sholai to leave. * Undermine the leadership of the current mission leader by getting his ventures to fail. The sholai obviously can't reward you with shaper training, but they offer a cheap magic trainer, and some high-level spells that you can get nowhere else: (Combat) Sulphur Cloud - severe fire damage and poisoning in a large template. Force Bolt - massive damage to a single target, stuns severely. (Blessing) Flame Blades - Entire group. All melee attacks do bonus fire damage. Power Boost - Single target, lasts until you leave, costs essence. Greatly increases the target's spell energy and spell energy regeneration rate. (Mental Magic) Blur - Single target, lasts as long as you stay in the area, costs essence. Target gains a stealth bonus (fixed) and attackers miss more often (skill dependent). Mana Drain - Severely reduces the targets spell energy, and gives it to you. Costs a bit of essence, though. Has a special effect on certain enemies. Posts: 19 | Registered: Saturday, October 18 2003 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Monday, May 14 2007 04:57
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quote:The differences between the classes are actually fairly minute and usually come down to a couple levels worth of skill points; them seem different because they tend to promote different character development strategies. The Shock Trooper and Warrior both suffer from the large extra cost to learn magic skills, however, which is much worse than the other 3 classes' penalties. Melee skills are for the most part easy to boost with items and shaping skill, as you observe, is almost irrelevant and also boostable with items. Serviles are the most survivable, lifecrafters the most offensively powerful, and infiltrators the most versatile. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3568
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written Monday, May 14 2007 10:19
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On the subject of more pre-shaper ruins. I think it's fair to assume that the shapers overthrew - probably rapidly, and probably with great violence - some previous social order / civilization. I'd like to explore the ruins of that civilization. Whoever it was the shapers fought, they presumably didn't take it lying down. Probably they had powerful magic of their own, maybe they were led by non-shaper lifecrafters who refused to obey the shapers rule. Maybe they practiced competing and forbidden forms of magic - necromancy, demonlogy, whatever else there is - which were judged by the shapers to be too dangerous. Maybe some mix of the above, if the shapers enemies joined together as the shapers consolidated their power. So we have a mountain range, forested, southern temperate climate. The ancient enemies of the shapers made their last stand there. The place is therefore intrinsically very dangerous - full of wild magic and the like. It is not, however, that *far* from major centers of civilization. So you have an excuse to visit a major shaper city, as well as to wander in a wilderness full of rogue creations and shades, and to dig up ancient ruins full of mysterious ancient technology, vile idols and eery rune-covered obelisks. FWIW, I think all that zeitgist contributes more to the game than some pedestiran notion of sound plot continuity. Posts: 19 | Registered: Saturday, October 18 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 2156
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written Wednesday, May 16 2007 03:31
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quote:Feh! Bad man! *loves Nethergate and wishes it well* As for the ideas expressed in this thread, I too am interested in the pre-Shaper society that gets hinted at in GF 1. Specifically, I've always assumed that serviles were in fact descended from them, not because of any plot related reason, but just because it'd be pretty funny if it turned out to be true. Just so long as it doesn't go the same route as Avernum. Stupid vahanatoi. =p Although I have pondered at times whether Avernum and Geneforge are the same world at different points in it's timeline. The magic the settlers of Avernum used to make the caves livable (like the glowmoss, etc) sounds a lot like shaping. The question if that was true is...which came first? And again back to the 'trying something new' thing. I dunno about you, but I'm getting pretty tired of fighting the same war over and over again. I realize we're working on a series of related themes, looking at the same plot from multiple perspectives, what does war, and liberty mean, etc, etc. But honestly, philosophy is all well and good, but I'd really just like to kill things and take their stuffs for once. Or really, I just like doing different things. I think a good steampunk game would be heavenly. -------------------- I am the power Sodom used on Lot... Name the movie, win a prize. Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Wednesday, May 16 2007 04:03
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serviles pretty much got shaped into creation. as far as pre shapers civilations. Some where it said that they where either asrobed or conquered. It was implied that it happend over a long persiod of time. so while it was violent I didn't happen quickly. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, May 16 2007 23:35
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quote:"We shapers think you shouldn't be going around with your ass uncovered like that. It's indecent. Here, wear these ass robes." -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8599
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written Sunday, May 20 2007 06:14
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quote:I've wanted that since Geneforge One, and STILL haven't gotten it. :( Posts: 18 | Registered: Saturday, April 28 2007 07:00 |
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