Wingbolts are over-rated

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Author	Topic: Wingbolts are over-rated
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Saturday, March 17 2007 23:18 Profile Homepage #0 Is it just me, or do many veterans seem to be praising Wingbolts, when they really don't deserve it? Sure, the Wingbolts do fantastic magic damage to a single target. But they are ridiculously fragile, and always seem to flee combat after losing less than half their health. That really frustrates me! I find two Drayks far more effective than a single Wingbolt. For example, I struggled to take Monarch down with a single Wingbolt and a Drayk, so I replaced it with two Drayks. Monarch became a breeze. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Saturday, March 17 2007 23:34 Profile #1 Hmmm, I killed Monarch with nothing but a single Wingbolt, though I guess it had gained a couple of levels by that point, since I made it as soon as possible. I had no troubles with 'Snakey' running away; he was a trouper, and quite tough. But it was an epic battle, which Snakey and I only just survived. Maybe two Drayks would have been easier. And I'm fuzzy now on whether or not Jeff might have nerfed Wingbolts a bit after my experience. I don't think so, but the beta testing and the final version are a bit blurred together in my memory now. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Dragonfly37 Apprentice Member # 8335	written Saturday, March 17 2007 23:37 Profile #2 hugs her wingbolts protectively Shhh, they didn't mean it, I'm sure! Ahem. Right. Wingbolts are fun. Drayks are also fun. But I never came across anything that my three wingbolts had any trouble killing, and they seemed a good deal less fragile than I had expected. Posts: 9 \| Registered: Saturday, March 17 2007 07:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Saturday, March 17 2007 23:51 Profile Homepage #3 I really don't get why people keep saying Wingbolts are fragile. They only have a little less HP than rotghroths, and their very high magic resistance is a major asset. Even their resistance to physical damage is actually pretty good. Drayks are good too, of course, but if fragility is your main concern about Wingbolts, well, Drayks die even easier. [ Saturday, March 17, 2007 23:53: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Sunday, March 18 2007 02:10 Profile Homepage #4 Thuryl: quote: I really don't get why people keep saying Wingbolts are fragile. They only have a little less HP than rotghroths, Wow. I never made a rotgroth, but if the above is true, then it must be a pretty crappy battle creation. I had about 5 in magic shaping, and my Wingbolts possessed approx 350 hp's. quote: and their very high magic resistance is a major asset. Yeah... I don't deny that. Too bad a little drayk fireball rips them a new hole. quote: Even their resistance to physical damage is actually pretty good. It's OK. quote: Drayks are good too, of course, but if fragility is your main concern about Wingbolts, well, Drayks die even easier. I agree. My Drayks had 50 less hp's than my wingbolt. The difference is that my Drayk didn't cost a whopping 135 essence. Two Drayks have far more hitpoints that one Wingbolt, and do just as much damage combined (and far more, if they are both hasted and blessed.) I can't place my finger on it, but I find that Wingbolts tend to be pretty sucky in a 'real' fight. Frail for their cost, and they ALWAYS run away when they take a hit or two. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Sunday, March 18 2007 02:45 Profile Homepage #5 I think your experience with them will depend heavily on character class. I take it from the size of your creation army that you're not a Lifecrafter or Shock Trooper. My Shock Trooper had 3 wingbolts by the time I got to Monarch, and tore through just about everything pretty easily, so surviving damage for more than about one round wasn't an issue. As for Wingbolts being easily killed by drayks, the reverse is also true. Drayks aren't so scary when they die in two hits. It's considerably harder to take down a large group of enemy wingbolts with drayks before they start killing you. (Of course, my wingbolts' damage output against enemy wingbolts wasn't so great, but dragging out the battle for longer just means more opportunities to heal.) quote: I had about 5 in magic shaping, and my Wingbolts possessed approx 350 hp's. A few extra levels of magic shaping make a big difference. With 10 magic shaping, I was creating wingbolts with about 500 HP. Some of the wingbolts I kept until the endgame had almost 700 HP, which is almost as much as a freshly-made drakon! Remember, since Endurance and HP both increase with creation level, creation HP is proportional to the square of creation level. (Actually, this is probably also why my rotghroths sucked. The HP bonus they get over wingbolts is fixed, though, so even at the same level their relative advantage over wingbolts would decrease as they both levelled up.) [ Sunday, March 18, 2007 03:02: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Sunday, March 18 2007 02:57 Profile Homepage #6 Thuryl: I used a Shock Trooper. I could have made a second wingbolt, but it wouldn't have had the 2 intel. required for control. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Sunday, March 18 2007 04:58 Profile Homepage #7 Actually, it's proportional to half the square, since Endurance (and other stats) only go up 1 point every other level for creations. Really, the only reason Wingbolts could ever be called fragile is the comparison with Kyshakks, who cost the same essence and have a lot more bonus HP, and an attack that's nearly as good (yes, it's still worse even factoring in the electrocution). However, Wingbolts do get better resistances. In a duel, a Wingbolt will beat a Kyshakk every time. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Sunday, March 18 2007 05:17 Profile Homepage #8 quote: Originally written by 227 Chitrachballons: Actually, it's proportional to half the square, since Endurance (and other stats) only go up 1 point every other level for creations. Half the square is proportional to the square. :D -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Questionmarks. Warrior Member # 8165	written Sunday, March 18 2007 06:34 Profile #9 Wingbolts are very nice...i prefer rebel creations over shaper ones,though. -------------------- R.R Posts: 179 \| Registered: Friday, February 23 2007 08:00
Leftover Sauerkraut Warrior Member # 7638	written Sunday, March 18 2007 07:38 Profile #10 quote: Wingbolts are very nice...i prefer rebel creations over shaper ones,though. Don't both Shapers and Rebels use wingbolts? I thought wingbolts were very nice. You get them before you can get a Gazer and buy the time that you can, they are just as strong. Three hated wingbolts can possibly due over 1200 damage. [ Sunday, March 18, 2007 07:40: Message edited by: Leftover Sauerkraut ] -------------------- "640K ought to be enough for anybody." -- Bill Gates, 1981 The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead. Posts: 152 \| Registered: Monday, November 6 2006 08:00
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Sunday, March 18 2007 14:14 Profile Homepage #11 Ignoring resistances, 6 drayks would do more damage than 3 wingbolts. And collectively, they have more health. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Faint Piping of Two Demoniac Flutes Guardian Member # 5360	written Sunday, March 18 2007 14:37 Profile #12 But three Wingbolts will take down three Drayks in one turn, while six Drayks might take down one and a half Wingbolts. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 \| Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Sunday, March 18 2007 14:45 Profile Homepage #13 Nalyd: quote: But three Wingbolts will take down three Drayks in one turn, You'd expect that, given that Wingbolts are DOUBLE THE COST of Drayks. quote: while six Drayks might take down one and a half Wingbolts. In one turn? Probably. But the Drayks would end up smashing the Wingbolts, and that's all that matters. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Dikiyoba Councilor Member # 6600	written Sunday, March 18 2007 15:07 Profile Homepage #14 You know, I don't think this is a debate that can be won. Or at least, doesn't need to be won. Sure, you can crunch numbers, but there are so many little variations in personal preferences and playing style that what works for one person might not work for another. And G4 is so open that everyone can get away with what they want. If you think wingbolts suck, don't use them. The same goes for drayks or any other creation. Dikiyoba is still waiting for the person who can turn the lowly Warrior into a fearsome and awesome force to arrive. There must be someone capable of it out there! :P Posts: 4346 \| Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Retlaw May Shock Trooper Member # 7143	written Sunday, March 18 2007 15:24 Profile #15 Waylander, my freshly made 3 wingbolts would kill your 6 freshly made drayks. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 \| Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
Acidic Helixbolt Apprentice Member # 8229	written Sunday, March 18 2007 16:35 Profile #16 To sum it up, the only reason we appear over-rated is the fact we are pretty. And pretty imba too. We are definitely more pretty then funky-colored barking dogs with Kentukki Fried Chiken's wings attached. With good leveling we are not "fragile" at all, and even mana depletion is hardly an issue, because it seems to outlast practically any opposition anyways. [ Sunday, March 18, 2007 16:39: Message edited by: Acidic Helixbolt ] -------------------- "At ease, guys, it's just some nonsence green wingbolt..." - Guardian Kantor, Shaper infiltrator forces, last words. Posts: 36 \| Registered: Sunday, March 4 2007 08:00
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Sunday, March 18 2007 16:39 Profile Homepage #17 Retlew: quote: Waylander, my freshly made 3 wingbolts would kill your 6 freshly made drayks. In your dreams, perhaps. Not even the AI Wingbolts (on Torment) could beat my two Drayks. The Wingbolts suffered from "We do lots of damage, but just not enough to kill a Drayk". Hence, my Drayks last for two rounds, which is plenty of time to kill a Wingbolt. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Sunday, March 18 2007 19:17 Profile Homepage #18 quote: Originally written by Waylander: *The Wingbolts suffered from "We do lots of damage, but just* not enough to kill a Drayk". Hence, my Drayks last for two rounds, which is plenty of time to kill a Wingbolt.** Which is fine when fighting one Wingbolt, and not so good when fighting a pack of them. I wouldn't much like to try taking drayks into the Sealed Catacombs. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Questionmarks. Warrior Member # 8165	written Sunday, March 18 2007 19:23 Profile #19 Drakonsss beat wingbolts easy...the drayks and wingbolts have low restistance to eachother's attacksss,so it would be a 50-50 fight...wingbolts' fire resistance is 0...Drayks have some resistance to the "kill" spell the wingbolts cast...its a hard choice. -------------------- R.R Posts: 179 \| Registered: Friday, February 23 2007 08:00
Retlaw May Shock Trooper Member # 7143	written Sunday, March 18 2007 20:58 Profile #20 Don't forget that wingbolts start out at a higher level and I believe that they would act first. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 \| Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Monday, March 19 2007 01:21 Profile #21 One problem with Drayks is that Fyoras are less useful than Artilas, since with simple tactics you can usually keep your Artilas out of melee attacks, and just benefit from their better ranged damage. (You'd think the AP changes would reduce this effect, but somehow I've never noticed this.) And Roamers are so lame in comparison to Vlish. So by the time you can get Drayks, you've probably got a few more points in Magic Shaping than in Fire. Collective health is less important than you'd think, because when your Wingbolt loses half its health, then in the first place its attack is undiminished, and in the second place you can pump it right back up with a single Heal. Whereas if you lose half the collective health of your pair of Drayks, you lose half of their attacks, and you can't bring it back. And fewer bigger creations, instead of more smaller ones, are easier to buff up with things like Essence Armor. Now that I think about it, that may have been what made the difference for me in my one-Wingbolt struggle with Monarch. Certainly I never had much trouble with WIngbolts panicking, but perhaps my heavy use of blessing magic had some effect on this. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Monday, March 19 2007 04:03 Profile Homepage #22 quote: Originally written by Student of Trinity: One problem with Drayks is that Fyoras are less useful than Artilas, since with simple tactics you can usually keep your Artilas out of melee attacks, and just benefit from their better ranged damage. People keep saying that Artilas are better than Fyoras, but I've always found that Artilas miss more often, which makes a pretty big difference early on. Besides, there are still Cryoas, which can be made ridiculously early on in G4; a cryoa that's been kept alive from the start of the game is pretty much on par with a vlish. (Of course, cryoas aren't really a compelling reason to invest in Fire Shaping, precisely because you get them before you get much of an opportunity to invest in it. Then again, you only ever need 4 points plus item bonuses anyway.) -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Jeran Korak Lifecrafter Member # 7557	written Monday, March 19 2007 04:19 Profile #23 I finished the game with two wingbolts and a kashhky (I just can't spell that right sobs) Both types did over 200 damage a turn to battle creations and Drakons and more then 170 damage each to the unbound, nearly 400 when blessed and hasted -------------------- The force is with ME! I'm not so sure about YOU! Trust me, you do not want to click this link Posts: 942 \| Registered: Sunday, October 8 2006 07:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Monday, March 19 2007 12:59 Profile Homepage #24 quote: Originally written by Nija_Halycron: *kashhky (I just can't spell that right sobs)* Kyshakk. It rhymes with "fish shack". -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00