Do you like changes in Avernum or not

AuthorTopic: Do you like changes in Avernum or not
Shock Trooper
Member # 10374
Profile #0
Well, A4 has changed a lot over the previous Avernums.I personally liked the change very much and think its a lot better than previous series.Also think(hope)A5 will be much improved and better than A4 and would like Spiderweb games to improve even more.I am interested what is others opinion of this.

Poll Information
This poll contains 4 question(s). 0 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.

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If you listen to LakiRA@ all will go well!
Posts: 263 | Registered: Sunday, September 9 2007 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
Profile Homepage #1
I was a little skeptical when I saw the title of the topic, but you know, the poll was much better than usual. Congrats on making a functional poll, which is really a rare skill around here.

As for the actual topic, you know, I still see A4 as the game that Jeff had to make. It wasn't my favorite by any means, and I think it lost a lot of the previous games' atmosphere with the engine change. But I really think it was a consequence of the brand new engine, and to a lesser degree the pressure that the finance side put on the company.

So I'm basically excited to see the Avernum series get settled with the new engine. Heights and boats are welcome returns, and I expect that the new point of view will let Jeff's somewhat bitterly funny writing shine. Graphics, well they're less important.

I still personally prefer the BoA engine, though that's probably just because I'm a designer.

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TM: "I want BoA to grow. Evolve where the food ladder has rungs to be reached."

Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice.
Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #2
Actually the changes from A3 to A4 are more than the changes from A3 to A5. A5 has the return to the older elevated terrain, being able to use boats, targeting individual monster from the keyboard, and other features that were lost in the rush to get A4 out there.

I wanted another choice for the last question. Since I've seen A5, I know that the massive changes are mostly to restore lost features. The only major new feature is battle disciplines that greatly improves the game for fighters. No more just melee or missle attack.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #3
I think the poll text was just awkwardly worded there. I think it was supposed to mean that the change from A4 to A5 was not drastic.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 10374
Profile #4
quote:
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Originally written by Student of Trinity:

I think the poll text was just awkwardly worded there. I think it was supposed to mean that the change from A4 to A5 was not drastic.
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It's supposed to mean that A4 is much better than A3 and that A5 is going to be better than A4.

Shortly:Spiderweb is making better and better games all the time.

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If you listen to LakiRA@ all will go well!
Posts: 263 | Registered: Sunday, September 9 2007 07:00
Warrior
Member # 10234
Profile #5
Comparing Nethergate:Res. to A4, I have to say that while I miss some things from the old engine, like elevated terrain, less character portraits, and the cool/fun Phil Foglio-type artwork for the skills (not sure who did it for N:R), I prefer Avernum 4's look and feel on the whole.

And I have not played much of Geneforge, so I'm not biased that way.

I just think the BoA / N:R engine is past its prime and too retro for most casual non-retro gamers to enjoy. I feel confident in telling a non-retro gamer to try Geneforge 4, for instance.

That said, I think BoA will stand the test of time and be a classic that will outlive Avernum4 in the long run.

Avernum 5 on the other hand, sounds like it will be a really great game.

What I don't want to see in the future is a cheesey 3-d engine with chunky textured graphics like the original Neverwinter Nights as Jeff's next new engine. Or close ups with 3d characters talking that have mouths that don't move (but heads that bob strangely).

If he does go 3d, I'd rather see him do so while sticking with a fixed isometric view style, like some RTS games do, zooming in only temporarily for the fun of checking out your character in different angles and without a lot of camera angle funkiness during the game. In other words, to add depth and realism, not confounding game play and camera angle manipulation.

[ Wednesday, October 10, 2007 07:12: Message edited by: Ming ]
Posts: 102 | Registered: Monday, September 3 2007 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 10374
Profile #6
Excuse me, but RTS.

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If you listen to LakiRA@ all will go well!
Posts: 263 | Registered: Sunday, September 9 2007 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 7064
Profile #7
I couldn't stand the interface of Nethergate Ressurection. A4 was perfect aside from the whole not being able to transverse the whole screen with one MC.

I couldn't stand the A3 interface and set it down before I could enjoy the game. So hopefully it's more A4 than A3.
Posts: 18 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7557
Profile #8
I loved the A3 and BoA engines. I liked G1 and G5's. I disliked A4's.

Why? It just didn't work. It didn't have the life that BoA or A3 had, and it didn't have the beauty of G4. But I seriously prefer the A3 engine over the Geneforge engine.

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"I must admit, killing mortals is much easier then killing demons. If you remove a demon's head, all you end up with is something that tries to bite your ankles." -Valen
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Posts: 942 | Registered: Sunday, October 8 2006 07:00
Warrior
Member # 10234
Profile #9
quote:
Originally written by KnowledgeBrew:

A4 was perfect aside from the whole not being able to transverse the whole screen with one MC.

That is actually highly annoying. If there is some reason I need to stop, then stop me wherever or whenever I hit the obstacle, but otherwise let me travel as far as anywhere I've revealed on the map previously.
Posts: 102 | Registered: Monday, September 3 2007 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #10
Problem is that figuring out a route is not an easy AI task, and it gets harder with distance.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 11265
Profile #11
Actually, there are good ways of doing pathfinding - read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiobjects for one.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Saturday, October 20 2007 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 10488
Profile #12
quote:
Originally written by Necromancy's Only Mistake:

I loved the A3 and BoA engines. I liked G1 and G5's. I disliked A4's.

Um... Geneforge 5 isn't even announced yet!

I didn't mind the Avernum 4 engine, but I did miss elevation. I still like the older BoA and BoE engines though.
Posts: 334 | Registered: Friday, September 14 2007 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #13
Anti-objects may be great, but the difficulty of finding a short path between two points appears to stand. To chase Pac-Man, you can have Pac-Man leave a scent and pursue the scent. But a mouse-click leaves no continuous trail, so you can't follow its scent. The entire problem is simply minimum distance with fixed endpoints, and this is hard. Moreover, for Spiderweb games you don't necessarily need minimal travel time, but you don't want stupidly long time. Although 'not stupidly long' is logically weaker than 'minimal', it is much harder to specify.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 11265
Profile #14
To path-find *from* an object is the same problem as to path-find *to* it. When you click the mouse, follow the scent-trail to the selected character(s) and have them go the other way!
Posts: 2 | Registered: Saturday, October 20 2007 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #15
Hmm, perhaps that would work. Perhaps you should run it by Jeff. The question is whether reaction-diffusion on a grid of order 100 square (whatever is the visible area in a Spiderweb game) could relax to steady state every turn, without slowing the game. Matlab on a workstation, doing nothing else, would probably be pretty quick. But for Avernum 6 on a low-end machine, I'd be a bit worried.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Guardian
Member # 6670
Profile Homepage #16
Forgive my possible ignorance, but wouldn't plain and simple A* work here? Collisions with NPCs aside.

EDIT: Ah, we're talking about moving across the entire grid. Duh.

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If you think about it, all philosophical debates can be made more enjoyable with someone on the sidelines chanting "Fight! Fight! Fight!"

[ Sunday, October 21, 2007 17:38: Message edited by: Dintiradan ]
Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 7249
Profile #17
AV1-BoA were way superior to AV4, because the storyline in AV4 was the worst jeff's come up with yet. I felt cheated by its' dodginess. Also, the background graphics were not nearly as appealing as the earlier games.

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Well, you may disagree, but I have thumbs! Look!
Posts: 28 | Registered: Wednesday, June 21 2006 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 11616
Profile #18
I like the style of A4 over the other Avernum series. The only thing I didn't like was the lack of outdoors and outdoors encounters. The map just seemed to unrealisticaly small wihout it.
Posts: 1 | Registered: Monday, November 5 2007 08:00
Warrior
Member # 8036
Profile #19
personally, I loved the Avernum 3 UI. press M for magical spells, and a little pop up comes up. You are how ever able to click it away and continue using your movement, without having to CLOSE the window. The ice lances spell was an easy to cast spell (a,b,c,f,g Space, Crack crack crack, crack, splatter crack)

I could quickly use my items on the fly with the I button, and quickly go back to my map to see my current position.

Also, I liked the One title dedicated to your party in Out doors exploration. It gave the world a bit more of a larger feel than the tiles are. It made the world seem bigger and believable.

The Graphics to BoA had there own charm, and I believed that they were very well done and were very well done isometric 2D characters. They reminded me of the Infantry in Tiberium sun.
For some reason or other, I just have a love for characters like that. I use to (when I was on a PC) use Paint to create some really highly detailed pixel people like the Original Avernum games.

Although I understand that Jeff probably wanted to make a change in graphics, I think using graphics that we have seen before in other games he had made, was a very bad turn.
I too also like the Geneforge graphics, but they are like putting an Oak Tree in the Sahara.

Personally, I believe Avernum 4 is a bit of a Joke compared to what Jeff can do...

I don't mean that to be mean, I know I have seen much better from the man. As a Story teller, I respect Jeff.
I Belive Its time for a New story.

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Put your heart into all you do, even when it seems your are diving head first to your demise, for your heart knows the right path to a true victory!
Posts: 67 | Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00