Why I Will Not Play Avernum V

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AuthorTopic: Why I Will Not Play Avernum V
Apprentice
Member # 10408
Profile #25
Aagh! I'm finished! I'm done for!

...has Jeff picked all the testers already?

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Microsoft is like a herd of dragons with amoebic dysentery: massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.

Death takes a holiday.

How not to do it: "Hi, Mr. Dragon. I've come to destroy you, so would you mind if I borrowed your Fireproof Skin Balm recipe first?"
Posts: 13 | Registered: Monday, September 10 2007 07:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #26
quote:
Uncle Av isn't there anymore. He's disappeared all of a sudden. You can't call him. You can't e-mail him. You can't send him a letter. You can't reach him at all.
I know what you mean. He's dead and won't return. I don't blame Jeff Vogel. It would take an exceptionally gifted graphics artist to project Exile/Avernum's atmosphere onto the new engine.

And I don't agree that the new animations are more realistic and have more depth. Instead I wondered why they appeared to be so flat and lacking 'presence', until I went to the graphics folder. A vast amount of time has probably been dedicated to master working with Poser, but a feeling for dynamic movement is something you can't learn. You have to have it. None of the three is a professional in this area, so we should appreciate that they do the best they can with limited resources. It's not so bad after all, though the old graphics were a lot better.

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Polaris
Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done
Rache's A3 Site, original version
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Warrior
Member # 10234
Profile #27
quote:
Originally written by ef:


And I don't agree that the new animations are more realistic and have more depth. Instead I wondered why they appeared to be so flat and lacking 'presence', until I went to the graphics folder.

The lack of moving feet in Avernum 4 is something that bugs me a little compared to Geneforge 4, but I was more referring to the depth of the overall graphics, not just the characters. Compare these 2 screenshots:

http://www.avernum.com/avernum5/images/Avernum5HissingPot.jpg

http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/images/Nethergateres/screenshots/NGateAethdoc.jpg

It's really hard to say that the old engine looks better, and this is coming from a guy who loves his Nethergate.

Since the new game looks like the first of these 2 screenshots and if it has some of the gameplay feel of Geneforge 4 with added Avernum flavor, then I will be playing Avernum 5, and gladly.

[ Wednesday, September 12, 2007 19:17: Message edited by: Ming ]
Posts: 102 | Registered: Monday, September 3 2007 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #28
quote:
Originally written by SoItBegins:

!!!?!?

How do you know this?!

The beta testers from previous games that were willing to do it again have been at it for almost 4 weeks. We get to deal with incorrect terrain, game balance, and Jeff making it so we can't get away with things he didn't consider. Just because I got all the battle disciplines before the half way point is no reason to make it harder for the rest of the players.

We have only got to chapter 6 of 9 so the next round beta testers can catch up pretty quickly. They get the advantage of not having to replay over and over again certain fights so Jeff can tweak the game.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 10408
Profile #29
Oh. Thanks. I was freaking out again. :rolleyes:

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Microsoft is like a herd of dragons with amoebic dysentery: massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.

Death takes a holiday.

How not to do it: "Hi, Mr. Dragon. I've come to destroy you, so would you mind if I borrowed your Fireproof Skin Balm recipe first?"
Posts: 13 | Registered: Monday, September 10 2007 07:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #30
quote:
I was more referring to the depth of the overall graphics, not just the characters.
Misunderstanding then. The character graphics though, well, this is what I mean:
IMAGE(http://fritze.leukefeld.com/misc/av4a.gif)
IMAGE(http://fritze.leukefeld.com/misc/av4b.gif)

opposing this:
IMAGE(http://fritze.leukefeld.com/misc/av1.gif)

The older one is alive and sparkling compared to the new ones.

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Polaris
Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done
Rache's A3 Site, original version
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Warrior
Member # 10234
Profile #31
quote:
Originally written by ef:

The character graphics though, well, this is what I mean:

The older one is alive and sparkling compared to the new ones.
I see what you mean. The newer character models despite being animated smoothly, have a much smaller range of motion. I did notice that in the Geneforge 4 demo the people walk around a little too upright and board-like.

I'll guess that has to do with maintaining the smoothness while not having a massive number of animation frames that could potentially slow down the game.

On a side note, I recall reading somewhere that Japanese game makers (think Nintendo) went for that "chibi" or dwarves with big heads and eyes look because it made it easy to use fewer animation frames and keep the movement looking smooth. If the arms and legs are really short, then you can get away with fewer frames of animation, perhaps as few as only three. If they're long, having the leg positions move from an extended and open stride to closed and upright looks really bad without more frames.

In Jeff's games this is complicated further by the fact that his characters are not 2D, but you can see them from different angles.

The new Avernum and Geneforge character animations remind me a bit of the Avatar in Ultima 8.

Notice how most of the characters here except for the executioner have a sort of stiff, upright stance:

IMAGE(http://pentagram.sourceforge.net/images/screenshots/pagan.png)
Posts: 102 | Registered: Monday, September 3 2007 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #32
Interesting. I always compared Exile with Ultima 3, but it never occured to me to compare Avernum with the later isometric Ultimas. Huh.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
"Making poorly-sourced claims is not the same as determining something."
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 247
Profile Homepage #33
Wow! Who cares. It is what it ****in is.

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The Knight Between Posts.
Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
Canned
Member # 8014
Profile #34
The new zombie graphic looks like it is playing rock-paper-scissors. Who knew that zombies like rock so much?

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Muffins n' Hell|Muffins n' Hell: The Muffins Are Back Again
I have an addiction to Spiderweb games.
I like this image
FYI, Iffy is short for Infernal Flamming Muffin.
Posts: 1799 | Registered: Sunday, February 4 2007 08:00
Agent
Member # 27
Profile #35
Looks more like respek knuckles to me.

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Enraged Slith's Blades of Avernum Website

Look out, there's a three-headed monkey behind you!
Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #36
The zombie is respecting the OP's right to feel the way he does about all of Jeff's works.

Now, why are so many people trying to rationalize him out of his opinion?

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Synergy, et al - "I don't get it."

Thralni - "a lot of people are ... too weird to be trusted"
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Warrior
Member # 6714
Profile Homepage #37
quote:
Originally written by VCH:

Wow! Who cares. It is what it ****in is.
Clearly I care, as do many others, since they posted on this thread in agreement. If you disagree, that's fine...but you could be a bit more polite about it, I suggest.

Jumpin' Sarcasmon: That's what people do when they find something they overall disagree with but might see tiny amounts of truth in. People find opinions like that all the time...tiny little amounts of something you can agree with swimming in an ocean of disagreement...so they rationalize not just to disagree, but to prove to themselves that there's nothing to agree with.

Or not. That's just a hypothesis based on what I know of psychology.

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Well that signature was out of date, since I've not been here in forever.
Posts: 91 | Registered: Thursday, January 19 2006 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #38
It's funny, you know, because I'm coming at this from completely the opposite position to you. I grew up on the Exile series and loved it; that, at least, we can agree on, and I think that's all we can agree on. I found Avernum 1 through 3 pretty much unplayable -- the combat engine feels more restrictive than Exile's, and the brown stick-figure graphics just aren't anywhere near as pretty as the art in Exile. I like the idea of Blades of Avernum, but I happen to think it has possibly the worst engine Jeff's ever made. The Geneforge series started out okay and turned great by G4.

As for Avernum 4? Eh, I liked it well enough to finish it, despite the occasional tedious parts and the, uh, problematic plot.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #39
"Why you will play Avernum V."

I think Avernum V is going to go a long way to redeem the fans who were less than enthralled with Avernum IV. V has returned a number of features that were missed in A4 such as elevations, using the keyboard to target and move (and something else even more surprising!), as well as adding the very cool new Battle Discplines. The story is quite engaging and intriguing. The settings are varied, largely new, and pull you along. You will try the demo when it's available, and you may well find that you feel like you are being visited once again by someone more like the Uncle Av you once so enjoyed. Jeff has been listening to the fans, and has done much to make A5 a great game.

-S-

[ Friday, September 14, 2007 06:33: Message edited by: Synergy ]

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A4 ItemsA4 SingletonG4 ItemsG4 ForgingG4 Infiltrator NR Items The Lonely Celt
Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Warrior
Member # 6714
Profile Homepage #40
I hope so, Synergy. I hope so.

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Well that signature was out of date, since I've not been here in forever.
Posts: 91 | Registered: Thursday, January 19 2006 08:00
Warrior
Member # 10234
Profile #41
Does anyone else think Jeff should minimize the "5" in the title since you'll be playing as a soldier of the Empire this time? Maybe give it a sub-title, such as "Soldiers of the Empire"?

From the game description it sounds like someone entirely new to the series could get into the game while old timers will enjoy seeing all of the Avernum references from another point of view (like the Romans vs. Celts in Nethergate).

I think he could potentially pull more people in to this game if they don't think they need to have played 4 games before it. And no matter if he writes "no experience required" or not, I'm sure some will see that big 'ol "5" and be scared away. Then again, I did notice that Jeff moved to Roman numerals as of IV, and put it in the background.

This is something I've felt about games and movies in general though, so its more of a personal theory than something I have proof of.

I guess Jeff could answer that if he saw Avernum Trilogy sales spike a bit after Avernum IV was released but by people not buying IV (yet).

[ Friday, September 14, 2007 07:27: Message edited by: Ming ]
Posts: 102 | Registered: Monday, September 3 2007 07:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #42
quote:
Originally written by Ming:

I've long felt that games or movies with sequel numbers can alienate potential buyers, but perhaps there are just as many who feel a higher number indicates "latest & greatest".
Finally Fantasy!

Don Qui Kong!

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Synergy, et al - "I don't get it."

Thralni - "a lot of people are ... too weird to be trusted"
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Warrior
Member # 10234
Profile #43
quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Sarcasmon:

quote:
Originally written by Ming:

I've long felt that games or movies with sequel numbers can alienate potential buyers, but perhaps there are just as many who feel a higher number indicates "latest & greatest".
Finally Fantasy!

Don Qui Kong!

Ha :D , no I meant more like: Batman Returns, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, Vampires: Los Muertos....with games I can't think of as many examples. Donkey Kong Country? Chocobo's Mysterious Dungeon? ;) Software seems to go for the "2.0" type of thing more to indicate newness.
Posts: 102 | Registered: Monday, September 3 2007 07:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #44
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

It's funny, you know, because I'm coming at this from completely the opposite position to you. I grew up on the Exile series and loved it; that, at least, we can agree on, and I think that's all we can agree on. I found Avernum 1 through 3 pretty much unplayable -- the combat engine feels more restrictive than Exile's, and the brown stick-figure graphics just aren't anywhere near as pretty as the art in Exile. I like the idea of Blades of Avernum, but I happen to think it has possibly the worst engine Jeff's ever made. The Geneforge series started out okay and turned great by G4.

As for Avernum 4? Eh, I liked it well enough to finish it, despite the occasional tedious parts and the, uh, problematic plot.

Agree almost 100%

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Canned
Member # 8014
Profile #45
quote:
You will try the demo when it's available, and you may well find that you feel like you are being visited once again by someone more like the Uncle Av you once so enjoyed.
Actually, it is Uncle Av's son. From what I have heard, he follows in his father's footsteps really well.

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Muffins n' Hell|Muffins n' Hell: The Muffins Are Back Again
I have an addiction to Spiderweb games.
I like this image
FYI, Iffy is short for Infernal Flamming Muffin.
Posts: 1799 | Registered: Sunday, February 4 2007 08:00
Board Administrator
Member # 1
Profile Homepage #46
The original post was kind of TLDR, but skimming gave me the gist.

This is a discussion that has been hashed and rehashed over many times. I'm sorry that people don't like the changes. I feel that Avernum 4 looks better and plays better than the earlier games. I wasn't entirely happy with the plot, but I have entirely revisited that area in Avernum 5.

If you didn't like Avernum 4, I hope you give Avernum 5 a chance. I've made a lot of changes. If not, well, it is unfortunate, but I have to move on. And considering how well Avernum 4 is _still_ selling, I'm very glad I made the changes I did.

- Jeff Vogel

[ Saturday, September 15, 2007 11:38: Message edited by: Spidweb ]

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