Removal of waiting and interface things

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AuthorTopic: Removal of waiting and interface things
Member # 6120
Profile #0
I just tried the Avernum 4 demo yesterday, and while I liked most of what I saw, some things confused me.

I'm used to playing Avernum with the keyboard, pretty much all the time, only using the mouse sometimes (such as when training), but it now seems that a lot of the shortcuts have been removed. Also, you can't wait in combat anymore?

Ok, first, why is t for talking removed? And l for looking (at signs etc)? And why must I click to select a target with the mouse instead of getting a-b-c displayed over the enemies heads? Is it for aestetical purposes, so that newcomers to the series won't find it ugly, or something?

Secondly, waiting. Imho, it is incredibly important in a turnbased game such as avernum since it can be tactically useful. Was it removed to make combat more accessible to new players?

I tried searching for these things on the forum but didn't find any threads discussing it.
The mouse thingie mostly bothers me because I want to avoid using it as much as possible, since it can lead to pain/injury.
The waiting thing just surprised me - why would such a necessary feature for interesting turn based combat be removed?

Besides these small issues, A4 was fun, even though I didn't play for very long. :)
Posts: 3 | Registered: Monday, July 18 2005 07:00
Member # 7210
Profile #1
I agree with you. I find myself switching back and forth from keyboard to mouse to keyboard to mouse. Its gets old real quick, but since its the only option you don't have much of a choice.
If you suggest something like that, on this forum, a few people will always post about how there needs to be more focus on story and not silly things like User Interface, sound, graphics, engine features, and making the controls more configurable, and my suggestion (better sounds, and music).

Story is paramount for some of the forum regulars and I also feel its important, but I think sometimes people fail to see that no matter how good a story is, if you can't really "role play" the story becuase of lacking engine features then why even play the game? Just write/read a book, it would probably be more satisfying.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Sunday, June 11 2006 07:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #2
I'm pretty sure that you can wait - have you tried pressing '5' or the space bar? And isn't there a little clock-type button you can push?

"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #3
But isn't it now like Geneforge, that if you hit spacebar or the clock-thing, you just waste your whole turn? I thought the point of W was that it still let you act, just later.

We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Member # 4826
Profile #4
Funny, if you press spacebar, it ends your turn immediately, but if you click on a person, it asks you (unless you turn this feature off) to verify by clicking again. That's another reason it's a shortcut.

I wish you could still press D (for defend). But the whole Avernum/Geneforge engine thing never agreed with me anyway.

Bring back TM or [i]DIE.[/i]

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Posts: 458 | Registered: Friday, August 6 2004 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #5
The reason space bar waits immediately and clicking requires verification is due to beta testing. It was too easy to accidentally end a turn while trying to move instead.

Waiting was also removed for a reason. The buff-wait-charge trick of getting a full round to attack in which the enemies don't respond made several battles much easier. Not being able to abuse that helps.

—Alorael, who can't say not being able to wait really makes sense. On the other hand, it has interesting tactical applications. Having slow characters is now almost as important as having fast characters, especially for taking out pylons and shrubs.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #6
The whole interface is changed with more reliance on the mouse and clicking. While you lost wait, it no longer matters when in a turn you haste your party or slow your opponents. After a while you'll get used to it.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Member # 2820
Profile #7
It is pretty clear that the whole idea behind removing waiting ever since Geneforge was to prevent players from having a guaranteed free turn against the enemy; however, now it is replaced by ending your turn and letting melee opponents run towards you. Either way, you can exploit some situations though overall it seems more or less the same.

I personally would like for the enemies to be able to intelligently delay their turn so that instead of engaging in exploitation, the player could be said to be employing tactics.

I do not know how you play, but I keep my left hand sprawled lackadaisically on the keyboard while I use the mouse. Neither hand ever has to leave its station.

I sometimes miss being able to select targets using the keyboard, but Jeff likely did it because letters above the pseudo3D GF sprites looked bad to him.

Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are.
Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies!
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Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00
Member # 6120
Profile #8
Right, I see why the waiting was removed, even though it's probably something I wouldn't have done (but then, I'm not desiging the game, so.. ;) ).

The keyboard targetting was very useful though. By pressing m-a-a, for instance, I'd fired away a firebolt (is that its name?) on the first enemy. Just like you can hit p-a-1 to heal the first character. It's much faster (and more ergonomical) than having to move the right hand to the mouse (from the numpad, which I use for movement) and clicking on the enemy.
If it's just because it's ugly, an option in the prefences screen would have been nice to turn it on.

[ Sunday, June 25, 2006 21:49: Message edited by: Srekel ]
Posts: 3 | Registered: Monday, July 18 2005 07:00
Member # 5066
Profile #9
What about camping? Its terribly frustrating to have to walk all the way back to town to be able to replenish. camping with the chance of random encounters before was great.
Posts: 23 | Registered: Thursday, October 7 2004 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #10
I miss the random encounters, since the only ones that are left are the bats in the beginning and the rats around Formello. Not much experience, but they keep you from walking back with almost no health.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Member # 4492
Profile #11
Geneforge meet Avernum. Although I prefer the old Avernum style, playing Avernum in a Geneforge manner is quite refreshing. Some comments:

I haven't finished A4 yet but from what I observed so far, monsters that respawn don't drop loot or are not the kind that drops loot. With the high prices for trainers, I don't think I can find enough loot or items to sell to make enough to finish training all the skills. Also no varying prices for selling items makes it quite dull, you can have someone like Oliver buy items at highter prices.

And now plus points, plenty of interesting monsters and items, its good to see variants of the different monster types that require different methods to kill. Having a character become uncounscious instead of coughing at 0 health is more realistic although it took some getting used to. Also should make it possible to revitalise uncounscious characters in combat mode.

All in all, Avernum 4 wasn't bad. Hopefully nothing will change my opinion when I finish the game.
Posts: 61 | Registered: Wednesday, June 9 2004 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #12
Unless you run a singleton, money is always tight and you can never buy all the training for everyone. That's why I recommend destroying all pylons for their crystals so you have something extra instead of the stealth route west of Fort Remote.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #13
Money isn't that tight later in the game. As long as you don't buy extra levels of spells (which aren't really very useful), you should have more than enough money for training.

The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Member # 3
Profile #14
Originally written by Randomizer:

Unless you run a singleton, money is always tight and you can never buy all the training for everyone. That's why I recommend destroying all pylons for their crystals so you have something extra instead of the stealth route west of Fort Remote.
I'd recommend instead taking the stealth route, then destroying them on the way out. Pylons that aren't initially hostile still drop crystals.

A few cats short of a kitten pot pie...

Radioactive cats have 18 half-lives.
Check out a great source for information on Avernum 2, Nethergate, and Subterra: Zeviz's page.
Finally, there's my Geneforge FAQ, Geneforge 2 FAQ, and
Geneforge 3 FAQ.
Posts: 2831 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00