Helping Jeff advertise
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, January 11 2006 11:24
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A core of board regulars likes to complain about Jeff's stories. I don't really get it, because his stories are good enough for me, and I've read, oh, hundreds of prize-winning books. But of course my artistic judgement is worthless, because I haven't played any Blades of Exile scenarios. EDIT: Why is it that I so often start page 2? I don't try to; it just happens. Or does everyone have a similar impression? [ Wednesday, January 11, 2006 11:26: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ] -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5785
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written Wednesday, January 11 2006 11:37
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quote:Oh, I know! And I study philosophy and yet noone puts any special attention to me! Let's combine our forces and start an elitist A-Team that look down on others and put our oppinions and worth over others. Because clearly, just because we read books, we know better than everyone else. -------------------- "..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days." Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, January 11 2006 12:02
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SoT: Didn't you also say that you haven't played any part of the ET or the AT? I think it makes a difference. A4 might have been good enough for me, too, if several previous games hadn't been so much better. Well, I take that back. It was good enough for me. I enjoyed playing it. The plot was not so bad that it ruined the cool things that Jeff did with combat. It just lacked the sparkle that A1, A2, Nethergate, and most of GF1 had for me, which made it less fun. [ Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:04: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6632
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written Wednesday, January 11 2006 12:15
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quote:As long as he doesn't go out of business at least. Which doesn't seem to be happening. quote:Yeah, me too. I'm still optimistic about A4 too, mind you (no mac). I now know what to expect. Posts: 50 | Registered: Monday, January 2 2006 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, January 11 2006 12:41
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quote:Yeah, maybe I'd agree with you. Or maybe there's a first-love factor -- Geneforge was my first shareware game, and A4 my first real introduction to Jeff's underground world. In my brief trial of A2, the training pits drove me nuts; little things like this can sour you on a whole game. Moderate criticisms like yours seem perfectly reasonable to me, anyway, whether or not I fully agree with them. That's not the kind of thing that made me grumpy. [ Wednesday, January 11, 2006 13:51: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ] -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Wednesday, January 11 2006 14:07
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quote:Apparently you have not been around Spiderweb very long. :rolleyes: -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, January 11 2006 14:40
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I'm pessimistic about all upcoming Spiderweb games, but I'm less pessimistic than I am about most things, which makes me comparatively optimistic. Exposure to good stories does not tolerance of bad stories create. A4 isn't really bad, though. It's just not interesting or original. Bad requires a little more risk that really fails to pay off. As Kel says, other Avernums have been more interesting in the plot department, although I think that A4 is actually better than A3 there. At least things happen in A4! —Alorael, who has a lot of first posts on the second page. This makes sense, since he has a lot of posts, period. Actually, he has a vague impression that fewer than one out of every 25 posts he makes begins a new page, which is a little odd. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Wednesday, January 11 2006 14:55
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I think old-timers, if I may use that word, I disappointed because A4 is very different than the Avernum series while newer players like it because they haven't played the original Avernums, or at least havn't played them as much. But that's just a general observation. Dikiyoba felt like Dikiyoba should post here in hopes of starting a new page. Edit: Darn! [ Wednesday, January 11, 2006 14:55: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ] Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, January 11 2006 15:15
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quote:I quote this to point out that Jeff consciously set out to make a game largely about good hacking with a basically passable plot. I'm pretty sure he succeeded in doing exactly that. I think a lot of the response to A4 depends on how we each individually feel about a game like that. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, January 11 2006 20:15
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quote:Actually, it isn't odd. Most topics never get to more than one page, so the proportion of total replies which are also the first reply on a new page of a topic is less than 1 in 25. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, January 11 2006 20:44
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Alo said: "other Avernums have been more interesting in the plot department, although I think that A4 is actually better than A3 there." Dikiyoba said: "I think old-timers, if I may use that word, I disappointed because A4 is very different than the Avernum series..." Well, if you guys are old-timers, then what the heck am I? A mummy? It's worth remembering that A4 is basically the first new Avernum story that Jeff has created in almost NINE YEARS. E3 and BoE came out in 1997, and while A1-3 and BoA contained new embellishments, the vast majority of the story is not new. No doubt the man behind the curtain is very different now. I agree with Alo that A4 is on par with A3 plotwise. Actually, it reminds me a lot of E3 in general: E3 had comparable upgrades to the graphics and changes to the engine that not everyone liked, but which ultimately were very important for the longevity of the series. The story was a natural continuation of the previous game without the sorts of contextualized details that made the world of Exile so rich. It will be very interesting to see what happens in A5. Whereas A1 and 2 had heaps of loose threads leading into the next installment, A4 has pretty much nothing. The multiplicity of endings means that it will be hard to do much with a certain archvillain, and the whole Dorikas thing is frankly less interesting than the A1/2 plots that *didn't* get followed up on. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, January 11 2006 21:38
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E3 had some tuneups to the Exile engine, or Exile paradigm, that were helpful. That happened again to a lesser extent in A3. A4 is a new thing entirely. A3's problem was that the story was marginally about Avernum but the setting was a forgettable and mostly generic fantasy surface world. The mystery of the vahnatai is neither difficult to unravel nor pressing. You just go on and kill plagues. The individual plagues are fine as quests, but very little ties them together in the plot or to the vahnatai at the end. Basically, the whole thing is a flimsy excuse for a romp through the wilds of Valorim. This isn't a bad thing, necessarily. Heck, I enjoyed E3 and A3. I like Jeff's style even when Avernum is mostly omitted. The underworld of Avernum is really what makes the series memorable to me, though. A4 has that, which is a big step up. More importantly, A4 has a fairly strong and quite linear plot. It's the most linear Avernum, in fact, with the exception of the brief interlude of Dark Waters in A2. In A4 you can do some stuff in the beginning, but you must help Fort Draco. Then you must help Formello. Then you must reach the Castle, which must be by way of the tunnels below Almaria. Despite all the temptations of the Great Cave, you must then rescue Ghall-Ihrno, find a box, and head west of Fort Remote. Then you're railroaded right along to the Abyss and the endgame. The plot isn't especially imaginative, but it's not terrible and it does its job of keeping you headed in the right direction. A3 never managed that. A1 has no plot, and it works almost entirely on exploration. A2 has a plot in the beginning, but then it goes on background too. I guess the real failure of A4 isn't that it has a bad plot, but that it's plot-driven without being miles ahead of other Avernums' plots. From what I know, Geneforge pulls this off. A4 doesn't, and it's failure to do so is even more striking because other Avenrums have "good" plots because they don't even make the attempt. —Alorael, who has rambled enough. A4's plot is okay, but not good, which makes it look bad. It does its job just fine and succeeds more than A3's plot, but A3 has less enforced linearity and is thus a less obvious plot failure. If you enjoy Avernum the setting instead of A4 the plot, A4 is fine. If you enjoy tactics, A4 is better than fine. If you enjoy half of the garbage RPGs produced, A4 is actually a large step up. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, January 11 2006 23:26
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*nod* Wise words from Alo. A few bones to pick, though: Exile *2* had tuneups. Exile 3 changed things entirely. The graphics were completely redone. If you thought seeing the trees mutate in A4 was a shock, imagine having the pale gray cave floor suddenly turn neon blue. Neon blue! Every piece of text in the engine changed font and size, often drastically. Loads of new mechanics were introduced, including Spiderweb mainstays like acid and one-shot widgets like owning a house and the first job system. Athron had a sex change. The list goes on... A4 basically has a linear plot surrounded by exploration elements. I agree that the linear plot actually works decently, and I suppose it is more creative than the surface plagues. There are some nice touches, like Almaria. The problem is that the without the underlying need to gather information about a mostly unknown world in order to accomplish your goals, as in the first two games, the exploration gets extremely, extremely repetitive. Oh look, another bandit. I'll kill him. Oh look, another demon. I'll kill him. Let's find a quest reward. Anyway, I really disagree with your comment that A1 (and mostly A2) have no plots. A1 has a marvelous plot, which unfolds at the pace of the player. You're thrown into the underworld - minor plot point there! - and you gradually become more and more involved in a huge tapestry of events: the nephil and slith wars, Sss-Thsss, the legacy of the First Expedition, Erika and the other wizards, Grah-Hoth and Adze-Haakai, the destruction of Fort Remote, the Abyss and the Scimitar... it's simply that instead of moving from A to B to C to D and so on, there are a number of different plot tracks that you can follow simultaneously. In the end, most of them crisscross. The big difference is really that there's nobody telling you "now go do this." A2 preserved this "gather information and resources from all over the place" format while centralizing the main threads. The Olgai Council, Mahdavi, Micah, and Erika help frame things, but without linearizing the story. Finally, while the tactics are definitely a step up from previous games, I hesitate to call them better than fine. They are sometimes more interesting, but they are also sometimes more repetitive. That's what happens when you give all the monsters more HP than usual. Okay, I have now officially turned into an old geezer rambling about the good old days, so I'm gonna shut up. :cool: [ Wednesday, January 11, 2006 23:28: Message edited by: Slartucker ] -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Wednesday, January 11 2006 23:31
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I remember the Christmas when my brother and I received our first video game. It was Pong. Good times... *this message sponsored by colecovision* -------------------- WWtNSD? Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5517
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 03:29
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First of all, I'd like to say I'm happy about my topic being such a success. quote:It isn't because I havn't been around a long time like some of the older players, but I have played every single Averenum and Geneforge and found them to my liking, a good decent break from all the crap of todays violent games, sex filled enviornment, and with a brother who makes me want to litereally kill him, it is a very nice break and puts a small hold on the crap of the real world. I have played a large number of stratagy and rpg games, and have found that Avernum and Geneforge fall under both these catagories, and that the somewhat indepth plots and charecters are good, as well as the graphics(for an oldies style of games) And Lastly I would like to say I enjoy reading the opinions of the more experianced players, as well as learn from them. Posts: 49 | Registered: Friday, February 18 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5785
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 04:36
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What makes a game intresting is the replay value. For me, no Avernum games have any real replay value. Somehow, Geneforge has that. Probably because of the diffrent classes and vastly diffrent ways to do things. -------------------- "..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days." Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 09:06
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I've played A1 at least three or four times, A2 at least two or three times, and A3 once. I've played GF1 exactly once and GF2 exactly once. I'm not likely to play A4 again. For me — and this goes to show that "replay value" is a personal thing, not an absolute — the AT has more replay value. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6539
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 13:07
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to be honest, what rpg is fun to play more than once? it's absolutely no fun to start back with a level 1 party after making level 45. that being said, it's tough deciding to start over at level 10 too. it just gets mundane, boring, and repetitive to do the first simple missions. this is true with any rpg honestly. geneforge had more replay value only because i played exile so much more that avernum was basically 90% of a rerun (cause there were a couple new dungeons thrown in and some other minor changes). Posts: 14 | Registered: Monday, December 12 2005 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 13:45
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My main complaint is that Jeff has not really done a whole lot original in a long time. Yeah, Exile was great because it was new. Nethergate was pretty neat, although I have one complaint on that which I will discuss later. Avernum was just a rehashing of Exile, no new ideas there. GF1 was actually pretty cool in premise, but somewhat klunky. GF2 and GF3 started out being interesting, but quickly devolved. A4 is pushed by the plot which is quite unoriginal and is a departure from the explore mode. My main problem is that Jeff's games do not really have what authors would call characters. Sure, they have constructs in the story, but there are not a whole lot of people who stand out very much. The commonality in this is we have the premise of, find Bob (the generic guy who gives out the major missions throughout Jeff's games), do them, and get loot. A1/A2 didn't really have a central Bob character in them and neither did GF1. In A3 it was Anaximander. In Nethergate and GF2 it was the leader of whichever side you picked (do these X missions to win the game). In GF3 it was Lord Rahul (if you choose the Shapers) or Akari Blaze and Litalia (for the rebels). In A4 it was Houghton and King Starrus. Is Bob needed? Probably so. However, the person that gives the missions is a generic construct. Now Litalia changes this somewhat in GF3, but otherwise all of the characters I mentioned above could be interchanged with any other personality and it would work just fine. Why is this so important? Well, it leads to the patented Jeff Vogel formula of game design: 1) Start game, kill stuff, collect loot and direction to Bob. 2) Locate Bob and do X missions for him. 3) You win. Look at A4, everything up to the Castle is pretty much (1). Everything else before that exists for the purpose of leveling up and making the game longer. Sure we have the Alien Marking, but that's the justification to see Bob. So we find Bob (err...Houghton) and we do his missions three. Jeff does something potentially really cool here and kills off Bob, I mean Houghton. Now with Houghton dead, there could be something interesting here. However, Bob is quickly resurrected and jumps into the guise of King Starrus, pretty much the same person with a different name and office. We do two more missions and win. Look at the Shaper side of GF3. Greenwood and Harmony Isle are leveling up distractions. I suppose this is not quite fair as it does develop the "enemy" better than in A4. You get to Bob who now calls himself Lord Rahul, you do his missions three and you win. The Rebel side is a little more interesting as we do not meet the real Bob, now dressed in a Drakon costume and named Akari Blaze, until near the end. But even still, Litalia gives us our missions until replaced by Akari Blaze at the end. This is better because at least Bob is a little more active this game. Let's look at GF2. The game starts out as an interesting mystery until we discover the verdant areas. Well, we journey on until we find Bob (in this case Zakary, Barzahl, Learned Pinner, or Eaaas), we do whichever Bob incarnation's missions three and we win. Look at Nethergate. We meet Bob from the very beginning, we do the six missions or whatever and win. A3 is similar in that we always have Anaximander to report to (who just sits in his cramped office), but at least is not so direct in do these x things for me. So here's the deal: Jeff's games are formulaic. The names may change and a eye raising ripple may appear here and there (Houghton dying or the mystery with Shanti thing), but Jeff never capitalizes on it. If that's what you like, more power to you. However, I would like to see some new spark, some new charm, a break from the old formula where I have characters and motivations. What's the answer? I don't know, I'm not the one getting money to think up these things. This is not to say what Jeff has done is bad, it's actually decent. What troubles me is that it is the same game over and over again with different graphics, names, and text, but fundamentally the same. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 14:30
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I can think of three ways to set up RPGs: 1. No Bob. You wander around and do whatever. This is how A1 and most of A2 work. 2. Bob. Already described. 3. Self-Bobbing. Nobody is telling you what to do as your boss, but it's abundantly clear what the huge mission is and you're expected to do it. I don't really have any strong preference for 2 over 3 or vice versa. They're the same thing in different packages. 1 is at least different, but neither better nor worse. If you want more variety from Jeff, fine. If you prefer 1 or 3, fine. Those are both preferences, though, and not really radical changes in game design that Jeff is missing. —Alorael, who maintains that A1 has no plot. It has background. There are nephils and sliths and demons to fight, an Empire to humiliate, and other fun things to do. Your doing has minimal effect. Even the three chains of quests leading to the three endings are linked more by necessity than by causality. A2 is slightly better, because vahnatai involvement really is something you change, but the two versions of beating the Empire, Garzahd and the portal, are still a static situation that you do in a particular order because of technical requirements, not plot requirements. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 15:14
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In G1 and G2, you can self-Bob just by staying unaligned. Or joining a sect at the very end. Or joining a sect, leaving, killing them, and joining another sect. Dikiyoba thinks the playability lies not within the game but within yourself. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 15:53
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You misunderstand me Alorael, I'm saying that the formula of: build levels, find Bob, do missions for Bob, win game is old and tired. The problem is, as I said, is not that Bob exists, it's that largely he just sits there and dispenses missions. Lord Rahul, Anaximander, the GF2 Bobs merely sit on their thrones and give out missions and rewards and that's it as far as the story is concerned. Of course, Bob is just one example I was using. Villains in Jeff's games tend to be the same way. They sit in their tower/castle/whatever until the party comes to smite them. This applies to virtually every character in Jeff's games. They are largely inactive in Jeff's world. The only people that have real active roles are those that are in the party. Now the party should have a very active role and the world should respond to them; however, as part of the reaction to the party's actions the characters should react in more interesting ways. Let's take An Apology from Blades of Exile. We had Bob, who is calling himself Xenophon and we have the villain who is Kriken. Xenophon does send the party on missions, but he also partakes in the action. Kriken also does not just sit in his tower. He does things to bug the party, he reacts to the actions. Am I saying Jeff should make something like An Apology? No. Am I saying his characters are shallow and largely inactive? Absolutely. EDIT: I'll add this as I was going to write this but forgot: I don't mind if Jeff uses the above formula once in a while. One or two games, that would be great. However, when all games start following the same basic pattern it forces me to conclude that Jeff is stuck in a design modality. Is the modality bad? Not intrinsically so. Is the modality bad when used over and over again? To that I answer any modality is bad when used over and over again. [ Thursday, January 12, 2006 16:17: Message edited by: *i ] -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 16:47
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That I can understand. As I said in another, entirely unrelated post, static worlds are part of the Spiderweb way. This can conceivably be a good thing, although I could stand some variety there too. Even inactive NPCs wouldn't be so bad if they were interesting. Go through the Exile/Avernum games and name interesting, detailed characters. They're few and far between. In fact, strangely enough minor characters often get more fleshed out as people because they have less exposition to give and less plot to drive along. —Alorael, who doesn't think there are really many villains in Avernum at all. Enemies, yes. Major enemies, yes. But long-running, major opposition to everything that the party stands for comes from demons, Garzahd (as a one-man encapsulation of the Empire), and Rentar-Ihrno. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 17:04
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Well, there were Litalia and Hoge in G3. They were both quite active, at least by implication. You met them early, and they dogged your path for a while. And the system of islands makes for a succession of local Bobs. G2 is pretty much as described. Bob sits there. At least you get to choose your Bob. But the reason why everyone just waits for you to decide the course of fate is hard to see. In G1, I thought that staticity was actually an effective theme. The whole island was in a standoff, with the stopper half out of the bottle, and the PC arrives as a newb who has just enough capability to begin tipping things. The sects sat and waited, Trajkov and Goettsch sat and waited, the tombs and sealed labs sat and waited, the ancient spirit city sat and waited. And I thought it all made sense. Maybe that's the root of the problem, though. The static world worked so well in G1 that Jeff stuck with it. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4239
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 18:40
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quote:I have to emphasize this point. In A1/2 the bit characters (shopkeepers and the like) were truly interesting. That was the part of A3 that most irritated me...suddenly the characters stopped being interesting people and become 3-line jobs (buy, sell, goodbye). And it happened again in A4. :( -------------------- There are two kinds of game players...those who are newbies, and those who were. Posts: 322 | Registered: Monday, April 12 2004 07:00 |