Zero Intelligence Creations

AuthorTopic: Zero Intelligence Creations
Apprentice
Member # 7717
Profile #0
Has anyone experimented with zero intelligence creations? The only reference to them I found was dull thahds as meat shields for agents. I recently began to replay geneforge III while waiting for geneforge IV and decided to try something different. Instead of pumping intelligence with a shaper I pumped fire shaping to 10 as early as possible and made some really strong really dumb fyora and roamers (I am on the second island - harmony?).

I am playing on torment and haven't had much trouble with them. They pretty much do what I would have them do anyway. It actually was easier than I remember.

I figured that fire shaping would be the best for this approach since they are 'well rounded'. My plan is to spend excess essence, when I get it, to increase the physical stats of my stooges and see how the game plays through.

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My babysitter vlish have carried my carcass this far...
Posts: 9 | Registered: Wednesday, November 29 2006 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #1
Agreed, the AI isn't all bad. When I broke G3 using Vlish (see this topic), I initially made them with no extra Int to make seven as soon as I could. I actually held off putting Int in for a long time because it was easier to not control them, anyway. I think I finally had to give them Int when I started running into Submission Turrets, which they had to use melee attacks against to do well.

Late in the game Int is probably always necessary, but early on when essence is scarce, it can be a waste.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7276
Profile #2
I dislike the AI - I always play first time as a shaper (fire specialist) on Torment. Concentrating attacks on the exact opponent I want is especially important to me (particularly in places like the shaper testing grounds on the first island). So is moving the creatures around to where I want them to stand (especially if I'm ganging up on something big that attacks up close and I want to waste its movement points, or avoid its area effects; or I want to heal someone). So is not getting into fights I don't want to have yet.

Also, I often start combat mode before the enemy sees me, and I want to place my (hasted) critters where they can get in range and get off two shots apiece, every last one of them, right when we go around the corner. (In fact, I like to use combat mode for a lot of pre- and non-combat situations; and zero-int creations are a thorn in my flesh when I do that, always getting me into encounters I don't want.)

Only in rare cases do I use zero-int creatures (usually when I've got something that's really hard to kill and I am trying for that one extra point of dex or something), and only more rarely yet have I been happy with the results.
Posts: 63 | Registered: Tuesday, July 4 2006 07:00
Warrior
Member # 5363
Profile Homepage #3
I know when I was playing GF2, I found that I often created 0 inty creations early, as I lacked the essence to make what I wanted. I always found that when some of my creations have intelligence and some don't (Especially annoying when I had 1/1 Cryoa and 2Cryoa/1 Clawbug), it can cause huge tactical annoyances, especially when you want to hide behind a bush or something and wait in ambush. I guess its worse for melee only creatures, as they charge out and always get killed. I guess thats why It was more irritating for my clawbug, rather than my Drayk Duo....

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Learn from others mistakes. Its safer
and more entertaining than learning on your own.
Posts: 100 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #4
The down side to zero intelligence creations is the loss of control. When you want to send a meatshield in to detonate a mine or go after a specific opponent then the AI won't do. Also if the opponents are too far away then the AI won't engage them.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 7488
Profile #5
quote:
Originally written by The1Kobra:

I know when I was playing GF2, I found that I often created 0 inty creations early, as I lacked the essence to make what I wanted.
I prefer playing solo, but when I need creations, I always make sure I have the essence to control them. That way, they won't get themselves (or more often, me) into trouble.
quote:
Originally written by Randomizer:

The down side to zero intelligence creations is the loss of control. When you want to send a meatshield in to detonate a mine or go after a specific opponent then the AI won't do. Also if the opponents are too far away then the AI won't engage them.
Which is why I either make controllable creatures or just play solo. It makes things much easier for me.

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Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.

If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Posts: 558 | Registered: Friday, September 15 2006 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3513
Profile Homepage #6
AI-controlled creations would have a much harder time against mobs or powerful monsters. In GF2 something I found vital was spreading around a single powerful creature, such as a Rothgroth. Each creature moves 3 AP away from the enemy, and generally stuns it with a hit. The creature never really gets a chance to fight back. With AI control, you would not be able to use any strategy aside from "Kill everything in sight".

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Nobody appreciates me. It's all "Igor! Fetch some wine!" "Igor! Clean up this experiment!" or "Igor! Bury this in the garden, we're leaving town in 10 minutes!"

—Alorael, who tried to become a deivore once. The priest gave him a funny look after the third wafer.
Posts: 301 | Registered: Thursday, October 2 2003 07:00
Guardian
Member # 2339
Profile #7
Ah, zero intelligence creatures.

I don't like them. They prevent me from focusing fire on the tough enemies, as well as preventing me from forming walls of my creations to prevent them from attacking my Shaper (who, more often than not, only ends up with 1 or 2 endurance, without items). Especially those nasty enemy melee creations, who seem to have some sort of grudge against my shaper.

I remember one time in GF1 or 2, in that place with the ghosts running faster than how quickly their hp dropped, I formed a wal with my creations, and I think I stayed in combat mode to ambush them when they hit the wall. It wouldn't be as easy to maintain that wall with zero-int creatures. They always spoil my tactics. And as a shaper, I could always spare the essence to give them intelligence.

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-Zephyr Tempest, your personal entertainer
Posts: 1779 | Registered: Monday, December 9 2002 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7735
Profile #8
I believe that creations should always come with 2 INT unless there is a good reason why you shouldn't. The only truly good reason I can actually think of is a very specific strategy (e.g. 7 early vlish, 7 creations to get the most out of mass energize, or essence pool abuse.) With the extra 2 INT, you can receive a tactical advantage, and disadvantages of a slowed down game plus the rare accidental early end turn is minor compared to the benefits.

Also, for some odd reason, when i created a drakon with 0 INT (Base INT of about 20+), it was prone to going rogue and fleeing, even at easy difficulty. After I added 2 points to INT, it fled and went rogue very rarely.

[ Monday, December 04, 2006 20:05: Message edited by: GoodCanisters ]
Posts: 107 | Registered: Monday, December 4 2006 08:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #9
I haven't had much experience with zero intelligence creations, mostly just the ones you can pick up in G2 with enough leadership. It's not bad, but there's nothing to be gained from it either. I put two intelligence into all my creations since I generally only make a few creations, so I have the essence to spare.

Originally by GoodCanisters:

quote:
...rouge...
Dikiyoba believes that the word you want here is "rogue." We're talking about uncontrolled creations and not makeup, right?
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7735
Profile #10
quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:

I haven't had much experience with zero intelligence creations, mostly just the ones you can pick up in G2 with enough leadership. It's not bad, but there's nothing to be gained from it either. I put two intelligence into all my creations since I generally only make a few creations, so I have the essence to spare.

Originally by GoodCanisters:

quote:
...rouge...
Dikiyoba believes that the word you want here is "rogue." We're talking about uncontrolled creations and not makeup, right?

GoodCanisters believes that Dikiyoba is right and that GoodCanisters should edit all typos that GoodCanisters makes. (That sentence doesn't sound right for some reason)

[ Monday, December 04, 2006 20:06: Message edited by: GoodCanisters ]
Posts: 107 | Registered: Monday, December 4 2006 08:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #11
Originally by GoodCanisters:

quote:
GoodCanisters believes that Dikiyoba is right and that GoodCanisters should edit all typos that GoodCanisters makes. (That sentence doesn't sound right for some reason)
Been following along for a while before registering?

Dikiyoba.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7735
Profile #12
quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:



Been following along for a while before registering?

Dikiyoba.

GoodCanisters understands that Dikiyoba likes the 3rd person, as GoodCanisters has been visiting for a short while.

Back to the original topic: To all people who play in Torment: Do you find that the extra 2 INT has any significance whatsoever? Is it vital, or is the extra Essence/Skill points better spent elsewhere?

EDIT: Quote fixing. It was unsuccessful.

[ Monday, December 04, 2006 20:51: Message edited by: GoodCanisters ]
Posts: 107 | Registered: Monday, December 4 2006 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7735
Profile #13
Sorry for the double post, I think I clicked the wrong button while editing or something.

[ Monday, December 04, 2006 20:51: Message edited by: GoodCanisters ]
Posts: 107 | Registered: Monday, December 4 2006 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 7488
Profile #14
quote:
Originally written by GoodCanisters:

Also, for some odd reason, when i created a drakon with 0 INT (Base INT of about 20+), it was prone to going rogue and fleeing, even at easy difficulty. After I added 2 points to INT, it fled and went rogue very rarely.
I always buy the 2 INT for everything I create, and have never had a creation flee or go rogue.

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Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.

If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Posts: 558 | Registered: Friday, September 15 2006 07:00
Warrior
Member # 7276
Profile #15
GC, I always play on Torment. I always buy at least 2 INT per creature, and yes, I have had creatures flee on me even so (when they are wounded enough).

Whether I buy more int than that is very situation-specific...I don't keep creatures and build them up; I always make what I want for the task at hand. Intelligence is usually a low priority simply because other things are more important, but if I'm expecting "mental" attacks from the enemy (or I've got essence to spare), I'll buy it.

Precisely controlling my creations is very important to my style of play (particularly because a lot of my character's points go into "infiltrator" skills, so I don't have a lot of extra power to overwhelm the enemy), and INT can be a good investment for that.

[ Tuesday, December 05, 2006 06:41: Message edited by: Alberich ]
Posts: 63 | Registered: Tuesday, July 4 2006 07:00
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
Profile Homepage #16
While I don't normally play on torment, it seems pretty obvious that 0-intelligence creations are usually worse for any level. If you can't control your creations, you loose all tactical advantage you have as a smart human against a dumb AI and have to rely purely on firepower. The gain in firepower from not buying two points of intelligence is almost never enough to compensate for loss of tactical advantage. Yes, you can do well with 0-intelligence creations. However, in most cases you'd do even better with creations you can control.

quote:
Originally written by GoodCanisters:

...
EDIT: Quote fixing. It was unsuccessful.

To get your quotes to work, make sure the closing tag (word "/QUOTE" in brackets) is at the end of the text you are quoting.

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Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword,
For it too has the power to kill.
However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword,
Can also have the power to heal.
Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Warrior
Member # 5363
Profile Homepage #17
The only reason I ever make 0-int creations are for XP reasons only. I know that when in gf2, I got to 4th lvl before leaving drypeak, and had 31 essence, and did enough creative looting to get a 3 in fyora. Hmm,,, I think it might be worth it to take the 0 inty creation...
It also happened again when I managed to get plated clawbug, that one was more annoying...
Then came the drayk duo, had 121, if I remember correctly, so, I made em anyway.
Reason is, I wanted them to start racking up the XP. If I would have waited for myself to get my essence pool higher, I would have made them about 2-4 lvls lower than what they were, and I was not willing to do that. I guess its worth it for the "transition" period. Other than that though, I can't see any reason to have 0 inty creations.

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Learn from others mistakes. Its safer
and more entertaining than learning on your own.
Posts: 100 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 7717
Profile #18
My efforts have shown what many respondants claim. Early on it is good and effective (largely because the relative cost of intelligence is large compared to essence) and later on it is not really meaningful unless you are hitting certain 'magic numbers' for creations (it makes the differance between 1 or 2 gazers say). Anyway I am sure that when I play G4 I will start with 0 int creations untill they hamper me.

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My babysitter vlish have carried my carcass this far...
Posts: 9 | Registered: Wednesday, November 29 2006 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7735
Profile #19
quote:
Originally written by Zeviz:

While I don't normally play on torment, it seems pretty obvious that 0-intelligence creations are usually worse for any level. If you can't control your creations, you loose all tactical advantage you have as a smart human against a dumb AI and have to rely purely on firepower. The gain in firepower from not buying two points of intelligence is almost never enough to compensate for loss of tactical advantage. Yes, you can do well with 0-intelligence creations. However, in most cases you'd do even better with creations you can control.

quote:
Originally written by GoodCanisters:

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EDIT: Quote fixing. It was unsuccessful.

To get your quotes to work, make sure the closing tag (word "/QUOTE" in brackets) is at the end of the text you are quoting.

Thanks, I'll try to make my quotes more successful next time.
Posts: 107 | Registered: Monday, December 4 2006 08:00