Why I did not like Geneforge 3
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Thursday, May 25 2006 21:21
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I didn't like the dialog choices, maybe because it reminded me of the Anama from Exile3/Avernum 3. While you might agree with some of them, the actions of each group left something to be desired. I would like to see more of an effect for stealing. I know it's easy to steal without being seen, but they should notice the thefts eventually. You could build up a reputation of being in the area where they occur and merchants will raise their prices to compensate for losses in the towns after a certain number occur in the game. Since most thefts are at the beginning or are for major items it will make your actions more thoughtful. I like the idea that your actions decide your alignment with the groups. It will be fun to find the new path. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, May 26 2006 00:41
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quote:*cheering* I don't suppose this path is one that you actually have to figure out for yourself, rather than just being directed to do A, B, and C by some kind of Bob figure? One of the things that I will always remember about Exile II was the sense of triumph it was repeatedly able to evoke. Seeing Prossis's face light up was meaningful -- after the trauma of going through the Black Waters, being coldly received by the Vahnatai, and being subjected to scrying. And the major quests, those were not simple "go here and fight boss X" quests, they were involved. Completing them required interacting with a diverse number of the people of Exile. It required figuring out what was going on, gathering information, and positioning myself in a key position to do something that could actually have a far-ranging impact. And they had a meaningful impact. I replayed the game for probably the sixth time last year, and reading the ending dialogue STILL made me smile. Obviously things are different with the moral ambiguity of Geneforge, which was almost totally absent from Exile. But G1 and G2 both managed to maintain some of this sense. The problem with G3, for me, was not that there was no "right" way to act. That's refreshingly realistic. The problem was that there was no really successful way to act. Sacrifice is good and well, but it should have a point to it. Deciding to destroy or repair the spawners in the cave at the end of the island several islands in a row and then assassinating one leader or another, without having much effect on the war... it's just not a rewarding play experience for me. Anyway, this was not intended to be a criticism of G3, so much as an exhortation to make the player's actions interesting and meaningful, as well as painful. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Friday, May 26 2006 00:50
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About words versus actions: surely as far as the game's innards are concerned, they are all just flags. So there should be no problem in principle with any combination, and what I understand Jeff to be saying is just that the whole system shouldn't be too complicated. But it doesn't seem to me that it has to be insanely complicated in order to achieve the sort of thing JS has in mind. For instance, instead of just one score representing Shaper versus Rebel alignment, there could be three, one for the first, middle, and third parts of the game. The player would have to keep on doing well with one side, or they would start asking what you had done for them lately. And a switch in alignment would be recorded, and people could react to it. Or instead of keeping one score for alignment by expressed opinion, with pro-Shaper statements raising the score and pro-Rebel statements lowering it, there could be two separate scores, one for pro-Rebel and one for pro-Shaper. This is hardly rocket science, but it would allow NPCs to distinguish between a PC who speaks out of both sides of their mouth, and one who doesn't say much either way. Not necessarily an important distinction, but it would be fun to see it noticed, and it would cost practically nothing to implement. While we're at this, it has always bothered me how your every word is apparently broadcast instantaneously to everyone in the game, even though in many cases there seems to be limited contact between different regions. Since there is now a clock in the game, from G3, there could be some sort of delay imposed -- and this could make for some interesting options. Or it could make a difference whether you let survivors escape an attack to carry the news. The game engine can apparently already set NPCs to run to an exit zone, and register when they leave, because the Rescue Mine Serviles quest in G2 does all these things. Script a few characters whose action when hostile or sufficiently wounded is to escape, and have this make news of your deed travel to certain quarters much faster. I can well imagine that making everything super-realistic would get too complicated, but perhaps a few key events could be handled more carefully, and it would make things interesting. It may just be that I've played these games too many times, but the current crude system is seeming a bit too crude to me. I find I can take the sect leaders seriously as personalities when they are talking about themselves, but their judgements of me are too obviously based on simple scripts, which are too easy to manipulate. None of this matters much if you just plan to play a straightforward soldier for one side; but deception is such a natural option in these games, where everybody is in principle willing to let you into their inner councils. It would be nice for the trust game to be a little more serious, so that one side could order you to infiltrate the other, and you'd have to think carefully about how to do this, and whether to doublecross. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 6821
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written Friday, May 26 2006 01:20
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To Delicious Vlish : I don't Khyryk will be seen in Geneforge 4. At least, not alive. To Kelandon and Randomizer : I never was really bothered about this. I don't think you are supposed to have your character say whatever you want. As a Shaper who's willing to change the world (isn't that why you're playing the game?), your dialog options are limited. But hey, if you don't like this, you can always kill both Rahul and Akhari Blaze, only you'll end up dead or stuck, but it is a path. At least it's realistic. About TM's scenarios : again, I don't really mind the 'forced philosophy'. See, sometimes the characters in TM's scenarios have a 'predefined' personality, and the story is not open-ended, which means you rarely get to choose what you say. The main characters' opinions (or behavior) are not necessarily supposed to be yours, or even TM's (in fact, it's quite the opposite in Corporeus, since you play as a 'bad guy'), but they're part of the story. Sometimes you can have an open-ended game and you get to choose what to say (Echoes : Black Horse); sometimes the focus on one particular character makes the story more interesting than it might have been otherwise (it was probably best to tell the story in Corporeus from Scilt's point of view rather than from Corporeus's point of view, just like the story in Echoes : Assault was probably best told from Boston's point of view rather than, say, Tobit's). Posts: 363 | Registered: Wednesday, February 22 2006 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, May 26 2006 01:43
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Jeff has already said that G4 will include more major NPCs reprising their roles than previous games did. Khyryk is the most obvious choice for one of these, by far. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 6652
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written Friday, May 26 2006 01:45
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Trouble is, if Jeff is taking the rebel ending, which he presumably is, then Khyryk's dead. -------------------- But I don't want to ride the elevator. Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, May 26 2006 01:55
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Well, who else is there to use? Litalia's gone either way. Rahul's clearly not mobile, and the drakons are a big load of boring. Anyway, it seems more reasonable to take the Shaper ending, as that includes less power escalation for either side of the war. The more power escalation there is, the harder it is to come up with any kind of middle ground route. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 6821
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written Friday, May 26 2006 07:37
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quote:SPOILER * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Mr. Vogel will use the rebel ending, unless he changed his mind. That is what I was alluding to when I suggested Khyryk would be dead. :P * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * END OF SPOILER EDIT : And Litalia doesn't necessarily dies if you're rebel. Yeah, there is a bug, but there are ways around it. [ Friday, May 26, 2006 07:42: Message edited by: The Lurker ] Posts: 363 | Registered: Wednesday, February 22 2006 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 2599
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written Friday, May 26 2006 09:28
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quote:Yes, I have been thinking along the same lines. The closest I can think of is robots, some of which exist today with limited conversational capability. If one of those told me that it wanted freedom, and there were lots more of its kind that wanted freedom, I don't know what I would do after changing my underwear :D . But I don't think that I would shoot first and not bother with questions, as the shapers tend to do. I would probably think at first it was a practical joke set up by a friend. Once I determined it was a real request, I think I would be equal parts fascinated and horrified, but in any case, I would want to talk to it and understand it. Not just command it to shut up and get back to work. And I think that this thinking would apply even stronger if it were an organic creation instead of mechanical. On another topic, is there a way to continue on the rebel path while skipping the task to repair the rogue generator? If not, I don't think there is an acceptable path on the rebel side of G3. Assisting with rogue generation is akin to terrorism, it is too much of an atrocity to even consider. Finally, thanks Jeff, for the reassurance that G4 will have one or more acceptable paths! Posts: 201 | Registered: Thursday, February 6 2003 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7002
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written Friday, May 26 2006 09:45
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quote:Nope. There's no way to do the Rebel path without repairing the Spawner. That's the point in the game where you have to choose between the Rebel and the Shaper paths. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 193 | Registered: Thursday, April 6 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 6652
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written Friday, May 26 2006 10:22
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According to this FAQ (written by Schrodinger?) Learned Darian offers you a chance to switch to the rebels on Gull island. EDIT: And the "hidden path" sounds awesome. Is it Awakened? Or... something else? :eek: [ Friday, May 26, 2006 10:36: Message edited by: Little Billy Sue ] -------------------- But I don't want to ride the elevator. Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00 |
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Board Administrator
Member # 1
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written Friday, May 26 2006 12:05
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"something else?" That one. - Jeff Vogel -------------------- Official Board Admin spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com Posts: 960 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 6581
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written Saturday, May 27 2006 03:58
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OMG! :eek: So they returned! I was sure about this! Thanks, Mr. Vogel, for this wonderful idea. I was wondering where they gone after the ending of GF2 and the GF3 beginning. -------------------- Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Saturday, May 27 2006 06:51
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Jeff seems to have said the the 'third path' of G4 will not be the Awakened. I hope that doesn't leave them out of G4 entirely. I don't necessarily mean that they have to be a joinable faction in G4, just that we should see something of their effect on subsequent history. They were a big part of G1 and G2, and in G2 they had a major power base and made major advances in magic. I don't mind if we learn that they fell apart and no longer exist as an independent faction. It would be natural for them to break up, as the war heated up, into a pacifist faction that just hid and an aggressive faction that got absorbed into the Rebels. I could also see Tuldaric winding up as a mad recluse like Phariton. But whatever happens to the Awakened, I'd like to meet some aged servile or something in G4, who can tell me whatever became of them all. And I'd like to see some legacy of Tuldaric. In G2 he opened up the entire fourth tier of spells, by developing the augmentation platforms that enable people to cast them. The Barzites and Takers are said to have learned the method from him, I believe. Somebody ought to at least tell his story in G4, and it ought to be a good one. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 6581
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written Saturday, May 27 2006 07:40
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quote:Oops. :( -------------------- Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Monday, May 29 2006 16:48
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What will the 3rd path be? Will it be morally satisfying? What will the extra creations be? I think they will probably be 3rd tier creatons. At the end of the loyalist ending you were leading an army of strange humanoid creations. Maybe these will be like smaller, weaker Battle Alphas but they have high dex & parry so they are hard to hit. This might make a reasonably useful battle creation. It would have to have less chance to be hit than Rots though, because otherwise no rebels would use them. [ Monday, May 29, 2006 16:48: Message edited by: Bobby Pendragon ] Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1814
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written Tuesday, May 30 2006 10:54
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You know, maybe I just share a lot of life's viewpoints with Jeff but it seems to me that he has done a very good job keeping the situations realistic. In a war you'd be amazed at how a good side can have the worst secrets. It's not uncommon for a burned out fighter of a rightous cause to abandon all semblance of sanity or morality much like Tuldaric just out of their sheer desire to see some justice in a world otherwise plagues with evil. Such people often sacrifice what it was that made them who they were in the begining when they passionatly faught by the rules for the greater good. They may not necessarily ever switch sides but a lot of monsters do get born out of necessity . Some spend the rest of their lives rather conflicted. And as I've often seen some of the worst people ever can look so right and morale, or even just sane, kind and wonderful, while in other cases the only right side is not at all what it seems. sometimes in a situation the coldest, meanest, scarriest people are somethimes the only ones who care about the lives of others, buried under mountains of hatred from years of combat with morbid personality quirks they are yet gripped with an outrage at seeing people become victims of the former. -------------------- The great light bulb converses its thoughts in a fashion most particular to its complicated nature. Neither twenty-one nor forsaken any longer, I now stand in freedom through Jesus Christ. Posts: 215 | Registered: Friday, August 30 2002 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 2599
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written Wednesday, May 31 2006 07:19
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To me, the key moral conflict in G3 is: 1. Is the cause just? I believe the rebel cause is just, based on the harst and uncaring treatment of serviles and other creatures by some shapers. The shapers need to adopt a code of ethics for how they treat their creations, and not just a code to protect their knowledge. 2. Are the means to push forward your cause moral? The rebel cause fails here. If the means being used to promote your cause is mass destruction and terrorism, uncaring of how many innocents are killed in your scheme, it is immoral. The ends do not justify the means. Your cause might be just, but it is undermined by these immoral means. Certainly, individuals may have problems, but the issue is what is being promoted. In some cases, the leaders encourage their soldiers to kill, rape, and pillage innocents, or are indifferent. In other cases, the leaders order their soldiers to avoid non-combatant casualties, and have laws so that soldiers who hurt or kill non-combatants can be prosecuted. Posts: 201 | Registered: Thursday, February 6 2003 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Friday, June 2 2006 11:13
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For areas filled with rogues, I'd like to see guards from nearby towns, come and occupy the area once you've cleaned it. [ Friday, June 02, 2006 11:14: Message edited by: Bobby Pendragon ] Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |