The Bullseye Shaper
| Author | Topic: The Bullseye Shaper |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Friday, May 19 2006 19:45
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Ok. So, I have, when I have had a spare moment or two, been playing Geneforge again. I completed another run through G3 to satisfy a curiousity of mine. After playing through with a missile themed guardian, I really started to question one of the more typical shaper builds. Strong creations backed with battle magic. There are some flaws in this build and many growing pains. There is never enough essence to really cut loose with spells for one thing. I don't know about most folks, but with Mass Energise, Unlock Door, Strong Daze, and then Acid Showers and what not, casting Augmentation, (Which is kind of rare, seeing as I spend most of the game with not enough essence) In short; Shapers use up most of their essence to make several strong creations. Like on the second island, when you have a couple of Vlish and a pack of Cryoas, and your essence bar is a tiny blue sliver. Some times, you don't even have enough to cast unlock. So I had conservation in mind. Remove as much demand on my essence as possible. So... A Shaper that is somewhat focused on a little dexterity, which can also be had with a couple of items, and some missile skill. I figured that a flat 10 for missile skill plus whatever could be had from items would do. Yes, it is expensive, but as I found out, it was worth it. Battle magic is nice enough and has it's perks. Firebolt is acceptable for offence for quite a long time. Ice bolt and Searer are quite good, but they eat up your energy and your essence. Battle magic also tends to be expensive. Something to think about when you are buying up a bunch of creations and all those different spells. It damages the pockets. The Shaper proved himself to be most effective. I played a no canister loyalist. Playstyle is more involved than the typical shaper. You are not just hiding behind your creations, you are actively sniping the enemy and causing much pain and hurt on the battlefield. The game progresses very quickly. There is a lot of applied damage. Things I noticed. I had more energy and essence to cast things like War Blessing and Protection. I could cast it more often. Not only did it help my creations, it was helping me. With a plain vanilla thorns baton I was hitting for up to 40 damage a shot on just the first island and with very little missile skill investment. I could do upwards of 60 damage with javelins. I was doing more damage output in total with my creations and my shaper than my missile oriented guardian. I had more creations, and I had the ability to bless my self. Mind you, this is torment. I had a pack of fyoras, 2 thahds, and a single artilla in no time. When I had a venom baton, I was clearing over 50 damage a shot on average, at the cost of no essence. Ignoring battle magic was paying off. I was doing a lot more applied direct damage with batons, crystals, and wands. I did one shot to the creator on the first island with a discipline wand for a bit over 150 damage while blessed. That was a lot more damage than a shaper would normally do with a wand. Heck, that was more damage than any spell at that level could muster. I started to realise that I was on to something... That a shaper could get more damage from pumping a weapons skill, missiles, than he could from pumping battle magic. I mined every crystal, collected every Vlish tentacle, hoarded sticks, saved every gem, every roamer fang, and stockpiled weapons. I blew through the second island like a hurricane, and tore through the third with little effort. Once I had Mass Energise, I was an engine of distruction. Since I was not casting spells to create damage, I had more essence available to cast ME more often, which really turned the tide. I ripped apart Spharon's runed serviles with ease. I blasted them with crystals and pumped them full of thorns. I was doing more damage with missiles than my previous guardians. The blessing magic and a little mental magic made a huge difference. I was blasting apart golems, blowing holes in bugs, and gunning serviles down. When I had a submission baton, and two attacks per round, I became my own Glaahk. Take out a leader type or a spell caster, pump it full of thorns, and it wouldn't get off a single shot. I also took much less damage than most of my shapers, probably because I was directing the control of battle better. I don't mean my shaper being damaged, I mean my shaper as a whole entity with his creations. I never actually carried a sword in my quick action slots, which saved me a bit of weight. Ammo weighed me down a bit, but I was rarely encumbered. Over all, with the game completed and even the Monastary Caves cleared, I would have to say with out a doubt that the Bullseye Shaper was much stronger than the typical magic using shaper. Especially once I got Reapers... It was game over. Jeweled wands and crystals did hundreds of damage and didn't miss. I finished the game with a pack of Cryoas, a couple of Thahd Shades, and two Vlish. I had a Glaahk for a while, but found out that I made a better stunner than it did. I didn't miss. I also managed to kill Hoge when I encountered him in the Inn. He didn't make it out of there alive... Stun crystals stunned him to one spot, I then surrounded him with creations and pumped him full of thorns. It is interesting to note that your missile skill really makes those stun crystals effective. Fire off one of those little green crystals at something, and it'll do upwards of 60 to 90 damage or more, and with a high level of skill on the multiplier, whatever it is you just shot aint moving for a while. Null wands too. It almost makes the game grossly unfair because one or two blasts strips away all action points for a couple of rounds. Null wands are stupidly powerful and rather easy to make. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Friday, May 19 2006 20:14
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I found in GF1 that raising missle weapons to 10 made all the crystals more effective. As an agent they did about 2/3 the damage of battle magic spells in less action points. The swarm crystals that you could make in the mines were a very effective way to remove groups and more likely to hit than searing orbs. I will try this when I run a shaper because I want to do more than direct traffic for creations and power them up. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 6821
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written Saturday, May 20 2006 00:38
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Very interesting strategy. I almost never use batons when playing as a Shaper and I only use crystals when really necessary or when I'm fighting turrets, but your strategy sounds like a very useful one. Basically, here's what I usually do in a Geneforge game : -I give lots of Intelligence points to my shaper. -I make powerful creations, especially vlish. -I also use my shaper as a spellcaster, though not before some time because he dies easily at the beginning of the game. -I mostly use my creations to attack at the beginning of the game. If necessary, I make several waves of creations to clear one area (I leave the area to get some essence and replace the creatures that died). -I use shieding spores/rods for very tough battles only. Mind you, in Geneforge 1 I was able to cross the river using the Guarded bridge (I did almost immediately after finishing the Kazg area. I had not crossed the river before, nor had I been to the mines, or Kantre's realm, or the wastes). I kept making waves of artilas and other creations until they were all dead. I also cleared the Patrol Bridge area quite early, but this one was extremely difficult. I had to use vlish and reload a lot. I did the Inner Crypt area as soon as I had the crescent stone, using vlish, drayks, and glaahks. Once I had Danette's belt, most of the game was extremely easy. I didn't even bother to get an entry baton, I just destroyed the sholai at The Front Gate. I finshed Geneforge 1 with three vlish, two cryodrayks, and two glaahks. Also, in Geneforge 3, I was able to kill Diwaniya before leaving Harmony Island, using vlish. It was tough, but I succeeded. [ Saturday, May 20, 2006 00:47: Message edited by: The Lurker ] Posts: 363 | Registered: Wednesday, February 22 2006 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Saturday, May 20 2006 04:49
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I was both suprised and disapointed. It seems that the Guardian was outshined again. And thinking about it, I probably could have got away with fewer points in the missiles skill. The build idea has huge advantages with very little in the way of drawbacks. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Saturday, May 20 2006 10:16
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I think you should put toghther a website for all your experiments. Great work! -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Saturday, May 20 2006 10:50
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Huh. Very interesting. Through several replayings of every Geneforge game I never used to pay any attention to missiles, after the early game dependence on crystals to get second attacks. But last time I redid G1 as a Missile Guardian, and was pleasantly surprised at how well everything worked. I'm a bit disturbed, though, that a Shaper can do well to finish the game with nothing above Vlish. That seems like a flaw; building up to Gazers should surely be the right thing for a Shaper. The NPCs all use batons a lot in G2, so maybe I should have twigged at that point. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Saturday, May 20 2006 13:58
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In G1 and G2, missiles aint so special. Missile skill helps your batons and javelins, but do not help crystals and wands much. It was G3 where missiles finally came in to their own. A well played Shaper does not need a Gazer or an Eyebeast. Vlish are supremely powerful and I am not just saying that because of my account name... Vlish are absurdly powerful provided that you know how to use them correctly and exploit their strengths. They are, of all creations, the single most important creation you can get in the game. From the first moment you get them, you are in control. You make a massive leap ahead in power compared to your enemies. You can stun and slow enemies. As you level them and they grow stronger, while the damage might stay so so, the length of time spent stunned increases. They age better than any other creation. A pair of Vlish in the 40s, once they fire their stun bolts on a target, that target will never move again. It will die. Plus, they are original and look cool. I mean, just about every fantasy game has beholders... But Vlish are unique. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Saturday, May 20 2006 18:21
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Actually in GF1 missle weapons skills are supposed and do add damage with crystals. I raised the damage for Icy Crystal from around 40 to near 100 by going from 3 to 10 in missle weapons. Swarm crystals went to near 200 which meant that 2 of them would kill almost anything in 6 action points, I just used them for the Guarded Dock to see what different endings would be like. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Saturday, May 20 2006 18:34
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Correct. But it was not until G3 that dexterity applied damage to your missiles. The dexterity + missile skill damage = crazy insane damage. There is a noticeable difference here. On torment, using missiles was frusterating. G3 brought about a drastic change as to how damage is applied, making it actually worthwhile. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5363
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written Sunday, May 21 2006 03:52
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Another plus for the missile weapons in G3 was the resistances. I noticed that many enemies, (Like gazers) were quite resitant to anything except physical attacks, and oftentimes getting into melee was a bad idea.... Although one thing is bugging me. If you play a missile based shaper, you probably will have a fairly low strength, as the skill points are going into shaping and missile (And dexterity). Alas, theres no guardian claymore for you (Well...), and those crystals can pile up on the weight... (Think its .3 per, but im not sure) [ Sunday, May 21, 2006 03:53: Message edited by: The1Kobra ] -------------------- Learn from others mistakes. Its safer and more entertaining than learning on your own. Posts: 100 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Sunday, May 21 2006 04:04
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My Guardian did fine with his missiles on Torment in G1. He put maybe one point in Dexterity, but pumped Missile to 20 as quickly as he could. Swarm Crystals gave him a very effective multi-target attack; he saved them for when he needed them, and they never failed him. And the occasional Icy Crystal was still useful even very late in the game, to save AP when finishing things off. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Sunday, May 21 2006 04:54
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Strength... I think I had four or five in strength, and then, with items, it was quite high. 8 perhaps by midgame with items, and it was 11 at endgame. The key is, caching. You don't need 50 crystals at once. You stash weapons caches in places you visit frequently and reload. Store them all in a barrel or a crate or something. You head out of town with only a couple living tools (Heavy, just go back later and unlock after battle) And then say, 10 icy crystals, a handful of sprayers, and a few swarm crystals. Carry only one or two wands at a time and leave the rest home. Watch how many pods and spores you are carrying and only take what you need. You don't need 40 essence pods going out. You only need 4 or 5. I kept my weight in the 90s most of the time. Thorns get heavy too. I kept those in stacks of 10. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Monday, May 22 2006 00:23
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quote:So that's what happened! That makes a lot of sense. Another innovative and interesting build, Vlish. I am actually tempted to go try it. One comment: it's not that Vlish are overpowered, or Reapers, or some of the wands, or whatnot. It's that stunning is (intentionally, I assume) a drastically powerful effect in Geneforge. Stunning is one thing about melee combat that didn't get weakened in G3; my melee agent leveraged it successfully for pretty much the whole game. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Monday, May 22 2006 07:14
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Most of my builds focus on the ability to stun in one form or another. Vlish, Stunning Blade, Oozing Blade, Submission Batons, Icy Crystals, Ensnaring Crystals, Null Wands, whatever is handy. If something can not move, it can not hurt you. A lot of people I think fail to realise just how powerful certain items are... Like Ensnaring Crystals and Null Wands. If you have no missile skill, they seem weak and disapointing to be sure. Something to sell to a vendor for a bit of coin. They don't seem like they are even worth carrying when you use them with out any skill to boost effect and damage. But add a point or two to dex, and a point or two to the missile skill... And there is an eye opening change. It is then, and only then, that you realise just how absurdly powerful these items are... How precious they become. You can turn the mightiest monster in the game in to a pussy cat that even a pair of Fyoras could whip. Even the final enemy becomes all to easy once his action points are stripped away from him. I have noticed that while Jeff tends to do a very good job balancing out many game aspects that appeal to power gamers, he occasionally misses some aspect that focuses on exploiting an extreme to achieve results, in this case, missiles. Certain items are absolutely game breaking in their effect. Just to powerful. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Monday, May 22 2006 07:37
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To a certain extent, it's good to have a few exploitable extremes, since it encourages people to try out different strategies to find them. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Monday, May 22 2006 10:58
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This is an interesting idea. I am surprised your shaper was better than guardian, sonce missiles are supposed to be guardian's specialty. How does this build compare to [my favorite] deadweight shaper? If you didn't invest into missiles and dexterity, you would be able to buy several more levels of intelligence, making your creation army even stronger. And instead of using equipment that boosts your combat skills, you could be using equipment that boosts your creation stats, further improving your creation army. Is the sacrifice in the stats of your 5 creations worth the benefit of becoming a good missile user yourself? -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Monday, May 22 2006 11:20
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I think so. Applied direct damage is good stuff. The reason the Shaper is better is because of a surplus of cheap and easily available mental magic and blessing magic skills. Standing around and doing nothing as a deadweight shaper is boring. :P Plus, there are moments when it is good to have direct attacks. Like, when there is a traffic jam in the doorway. You can contribute to damage when you have the enemy bottlenecked. And submission batons are just plain cool. I mean, really... A Shaper should carry a submission baton to keep everybody around him in line. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7152
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written Monday, May 22 2006 14:20
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I'm a little surprised it took until G3 to exploit the missile weapons. When I first started playing G1, I noticed that my shaper, despite being the biggest wimp on the planet, hit more often and did more damage with a javelin than with firebolt. A thorn baton didn't do as much damage, but still had a higher chance of hitting. Also, my shaper consistently outperformed his little fyora, which kept me wondering why I was spending all my rounds trying to heal it instead of actually damaging the enemy. My agent, who was supposed to have stronger magic, still didn't do squat with battle magic, and was further crippled by not having a second party member (even as cannon fodder, fyoras are useful). I never played a guardian, but with all the missile based creations wandering around, I did realize very quickly that concentrating on melee weapons would just turn me into toast. I'd be out of range, too stunned to attack, or just plain dead. Even though swords do plenty of damage (even a shaper wielding a paltry knife was enough to one-hit a rogue fyora), it doesn't mean a thing if I can't actually get a chance to use them. And nothing can really make up for the fact that crystals only use three AP, giving even the most beleaguered wimp (me) two attacks per round. I play on Normal or Easy (when I get soundly thrashed too many times in a row), so I don't know if game mechanics change wildly on the higher levels, or later in the game (I don't often even reach the end of the demo). But I did play the early sections of the games over and over again, trying to figure out strategies with different shapers and agents, and missiles (*especially* venom or acid batons) always won hands down. Even in the Avernum games, missiles were critical. (Your mage and priest might run out of magic, but if they can use bows, they can work together to take down a foe. From A2 onward, all you have to do is make your spellcasters into nephilim, and in A4, you don't even need to stockpile arrows.) Posts: 18 | Registered: Monday, May 22 2006 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 00:02
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Welcome to the boards. Things do change on the higher levels in that monsters are tougher and hit harder. This means that the low-level missile weapons don't help enough to be worthwhile, unless you invest quite a few skill points in the relevant abilities. An almost-dead enemy can still kill you, especially on Torment, so you don't survive throwing Icy Crystals unless you have pumped Missile Weapons high enough for the crystal to kill for you consistently. And so on. This means that on the higher difficulties you have to decide to focus your character heavily on using missiles, and stick with it for a long time, resisting the temptations to develop sidelines in melee or magic or monsters. Eventually you may be able to broaden out some, but if you don't keep up your core missile-launching ability as the game goes on, you'll either find yourself dying, or abandoning missiles because they stop working for you. Proving a missile build right through a game, on Torment, is a time investment that DV seems to have made first now a couple of times. It's a service to the community. His results motivated me to try a Missile Guardian in G1, which I would never otherwise have attempted because missiles always seemed ineffective to me before, and which was a lot of fun. [ Tuesday, May 23, 2006 00:03: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ] -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Wednesday, May 31 2006 03:29
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A few questions about your Bullseye build, DV: 1. How much did you invest in strength? If you were carrying around missile weapons, did you need a boost in strength so that you wouldn't lose AP due to encumberance? 2. How much did you invest in Mental Magic, and spellcraft? 3. How much luck did you get? And does luck increase the chances of you hitting your target? -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Wednesday, May 31 2006 04:29
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Strength was four or five, as stated earlier in thread. Keep your payload weight low... Cache your weapons! Luck, I don't remember. 8ish? Maybe higher? Clover boots. Clover boots tend to be better than pretty much anything else... Action points are nice and all, but the clover boots are a subtle exceptionally powerful item. I only had a few base points in spellcraft, and relied on items to boost it. Mental magic, I don't remember. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, May 31 2006 05:50
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Every point of Luck gives you a 2% bonus on all rolls to hit or to dodge. I think it affects damage given and received in some subtle and random way, but I'm not sure. Although the status screen shows a visible increase in armor and resistance from Luck, I'm not sure if this actually happens. (In A4, the visible increase is total baloney and there is no actual change in damage taken.) -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |