It Must Be Magic
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| Author | Topic: It Must Be Magic |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 13:52
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Some of the discussion of magic use in Canopy has left me thinking more about how Avernum uses magic in general and how we might like to see it changed or improved and why. I never played D&D or any other role play game besides Ultima IV and Civilization until I discovered Avernum a year back. I like the fantasy environment in general though. Regardless of the game type, whether Hexen, Diablo, or Avernum, what I consistently seem to encounter in these games is too many kinds of weapons and/or magic to choose from, with not enough actual differentiation or necessity of use. Typically I end up settling on a few pet favorites and can ignore most the rest. In Avernum we have both priest and mage spells which seem to overlap unnecessarily. Fireblast or Divine Fire...does it really matter which to use? Lightning Spray or Arcane Blow...is there really much difference besides mana cost? Smite or Ice Lances...different only in number of targets? I keep wondering how others might imagine a more streamlined or specialized magic system to operate. I like spells like Spray Acid, but wish they had a more specifically useful and satisfying function....maybe on statues and metallic constructions, for instance. I wish priests and mages were more truly differentiated. Divine Fire being a priestly way to charbroil a foe vs. blasting your foe with your mage's Fireblast seems like a difference in semantics only. I like the idea of priests only being able to perform magics truly associated with health, life, and death. I don't even like resurrection. It means there really is no ultimate death in the world. Couldn't anyone be resurrected at whim? Why aren't they then? Other games just normally have us go back and redo something to avoid dying anyway. I know there were area spells and others not carried over from Exile. What would be a good finite and sensible set of spells for a mage or priest ideally? Especially, what would be most useful and fun? Also, what are some thoughts about wands and potions? I could do without wands and most other magic-storing devices entirely, and be forced to create and manage my magical PC’s more effectively instead. I like augmented armor and rings, etc. to find and accumulate over time. I also like the idea of herbs and making potions ok. Seems like there are too many of them potions though. About half of them I never use. I use healing, energy, and invulnerability potions primarily. I kind of wish knowledge brews didn’t even exist, heh. Also, if I ever created a game like this, or just a scenario, I think I would greatly minimize the finding of magical items of most kinds. They'd really be more rare and speical and hard-won. I really like the less is more approach. Thoughts and ideas? -------------------- A4 Item Locations A4 Singleton G4 Items List G4 Forging List The Insidious Infiltrator Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 14:53
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Wow... you really don't start short discussions, do you? About the overlap, not every party has both a mage and a priest. Some people deem mages unnecessary, and some try to tough it out without priestly healing. And you've missed two important differences between some spells: namely, the type of damage and the amount of damage. (Another topic I've discussed with TM, and wound up ultimately confusing me) For instance, Smite deals less damage and has fewer targets than Ice Lances, and Divine Fire doesn't deal out nearly as much pain as Fireblast. Part of that is because priests don't traditionally follow the path of most damage dealt. It's just not in a priest's character to single-handedly roast everything on the field with 500 damage to each target. That's what mages are for, storywise. Also, the adjustment to Spray Acid that you mentioned would make it a carbon-copy of Move Mountains. Again, that's an issue of which magic type has domain over it, and in Avernum, only priests can crumble rocks. Likewise, only mages can unlock doors and dispel barriers, and priests have sole control over removing forcecages. Potions are simply underused, probably from the heavy reliance most players have on magic (exception: Lord Putidus players). The variety you get is simply there to help meet the situations at hand. Example: you may not need to restore all the SP an Energy Elixir would, so you drink the potion instead. Or, maybe you need to restore some HP at the same time, so you drink a Restoration Brew. Minimizing the appearance of magical and über-items is something that we designers should definitely work on. There have been quite a few super-broken items floating around for a while, which we now have to take into account when we design (I wish there was a call to check for Maximilian). Thus, when you make a scenario of your own (and I personally look forward to seeing one of yours, as you certainly have ideas), you can control that. And if you really want, you can eliminate spells at the start of the scenario, like TM did with Cloud of Blades in Canopy. And about resurrecting people, that's actually a good point. However, resurrections take a toll on the person who casts them, from the SP loss to the need for a Balm of Life (which not everyone can make). And there are some people you just can't resurrect (without level 3 or something like that). Also, mass-resurrections are usually the work of necromancy, and that builds scenarios, sadly enough. Still, it'd be interesting to see a scenario dealing with the spontaneous resurrection of huge numbers of people. (Or has it already been done?) -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 15:52
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quote:That capacity seems to elude me despite my best efforts. ... So, with the differences in the similar priest and mage spells, the only real use for the lesser redundant priest spells occurs when you have no mage or only need to use a small about of spell points to finish someone off it would appear. Are there other practical reasons to use the priest version of the mage spells? What I was suggesting with Spray Acid was not to use it on inanimate objects, but that it could be designed to be especially useful on something like a Doomguard or a living statue which are made of dissolvable substances...or maybe you could use it on anything wearing armor to make any further assaults more effective (the armor has been damaged by the acid). What did you mean by super-broken items? Which scenario has Maximilian? I either haven’t played that one or didn’t keep it. I did keep the Adlerauge crossbow (insanely potent) from Mad Ambition and the demon sword from Canopy (which is not as normally powerful as a blessed greatsword) and a whole bunch of souped-up magical armor and jewelry. Resurrection: if I can be resurrected from dust for a bit of spell energy, life force, and alchemical ingredients, what good is it to assassinate Hawthorne or evil mage whats-his-name in Avernum 1? Surely their powerful priests could infinitely resurrect them as necessary, just like my one priest or a local healer is able to do for any of my PC’s when needed. This is why resurrection bothers me. It’s a non-sequitor never taken to its logical conclusion in the fantasy world. If resurrection is really possible, no death of anything living is necessarily permanent. And practically speaking, how many players actually use resurrection instead of just reloading a saved game and not dying at all? Ultimately, what’s the difference? Resurrection is really rather dispensible. I can see it as a carry-over from the D&D world which is really not necessary in a comptuerized game world where saving and redoing is quick and easy and expedient. -------------------- A4 Item Locations A4 Singleton G4 Items List G4 Forging List The Insidious Infiltrator Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 16:20
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Maximilian is in Canopy, but if you don't look hard, you probably won't find it. I liked the A1 and A2 spell systems better than the A3 and BoA ones. Divine Warrior was fun (if ridiculously overpowered). -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 17:15
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Okay, that idea of Spray Acid makes much more sense. It's just that Jeff didn't code it that way, I guess. Maximilian requires you to get all the chunks of mithril out of Canopy, so it's easy to miss. And it's simply insane. Check the Artifacts Hall if you want to see it without having to replay Canopy. And about resurrection, uh... well, just try not to think about it. (envisions a resurrected Garzahd) Ungh... that's unpleasant. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 17:36
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A few SW community members and former community members are working on a project called Pygmalion. It's an RPG scenario design system which, once completed, will address many of your concerns regarding weapons and spells. Being as I'm effectively the chief gameplay designer, I'm attempting to give the game the best of both worlds as regards variety and balance; over 100 different types of weapon and spell, with spells divided into 3 realms and 12 sub-realms. There's very little overlap between different realms of magic; Vital Magic includes spells, both helpful and harmful, which are for the most part only effective on living creatures, Energetic Magic consists mostly of various kinds of direct-damage spell, and Physical Magic is a motley assortment of summoning spells, utility spells, item-crafting abilities and status effects. Characters can specialise in one realm, dabble in all three, or go without magic entirely and try to get by on whatever magical items they find. You can find out more at the Pygmalion forum at Desperance: http://forums.desperance.net/viewforum.php?id=9 The magic system, my magnum opus at the moment, can be found in this thread. The weapon system is still under construction; a first draft can be found here. [ Saturday, September 17, 2005 17:42: Message edited by: Blistering ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 18:03
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Kel, yeah, Divine Warrior was fun. It seems like each new Avernum both adds and takes away something I like. I've peeked at Exile III spells and can see what some of these which people miss might be...Shockwave (if I recall) looks like fun to name one. And it's very odd to me that so many foes can Curse my PC's but I can no longer return the favor. Blister...sounds like an ambitious and intriguing project you're working on. 100 different spells though? Yikes! -------------------- A4 Item Locations A4 Singleton G4 Items List G4 Forging List The Insidious Infiltrator Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 18:14
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Oops, with all due apologies, Ephesos, for the double post, I knew there was something in Canopy I forgot to pursue...some specialized weapon the snobby smith in the main castle would make for me if it was worth his bother. Funny, I poke around pretty thoroughly, but don't remember finding any mithril anywhere. I was in a hurry to get the hell out of there, though, heh. -------------------- A4 Item Locations A4 Singleton G4 Items List G4 Forging List The Insidious Infiltrator Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 19:14
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Remember those big, light grey boulders you saw in a few places in Canopy? Those were mithril ore. You had to stand next to them and look at them to get them. (By the way, my normal displayed name is Thuryl, not Blistering. At the moment I'm changing my name once a day until the end of the month to celebrate my 5000th post.) [ Saturday, September 17, 2005 19:25: Message edited by: Blistering ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Sunday, September 18 2005 02:38
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quote:Tharma has a great story about the invention of resurrection balm and its benefits and problems. I'll see if I can find it. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Sunday, September 18 2005 04:47
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I found it. Here is the story in three large images: http://ryan-thompson.home.comcast.net/balm1.png http://ryan-thompson.home.comcast.net/balm2.png http://ryan-thompson.home.comcast.net/balm3.png -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3368
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written Sunday, September 18 2005 19:25
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When is pyg coming out? I've heard alot about it as if it has been finished, but I see no place to get (download) it. -------------------- "Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending" Posts: 287 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, September 18 2005 19:30
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It'll come out when it's finished. Djur's the one programming it; he's had its release date set at Real Soon Now for, uh, quite a while. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5969
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written Wednesday, September 21 2005 11:05
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quote:If there's a really difficult boss fight or something, and you win but one of your characters dies. Normally, I save after every battle and every important thing I do, and then go back if someone dies, but in a really big, hard battle, sometimes (IMO) it's worth going back to a town healer later. What annoys me is that all the deceased's items drop to the ground when they die and you can't possibly pick them all up, especially if you've gotten far enough in the game to have a lot of armor and assorted miscellaneous items. -_-; -------------------- A C, an E-flat, and a G walk into the Tower of the Magi. Ambrin walks up to them and says, "Hey! It's the Triad!" Kelner snorts and says, "Pretty minor Triad if you ask me." Posts: 242 | Registered: Thursday, June 16 2005 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 6136
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written Thursday, September 22 2005 18:20
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well i see the point of the stupid that is the resurrection, particulary in the fact that erika died in avernum 3 at least in my game (i liked erika so much...)with the resurrection No ONE should ever die and the damn jeff world would just be overpopulated!but well, that are the little errors in the story... Posts: 446 | Registered: Friday, July 22 2005 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 303
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written Saturday, September 24 2005 16:18
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You will need at least 99% of the body/powder to be able to raise someone. Garzahd was ripped apart by magics and vaporized, and Erika became a pile of dust. Vaporazation doesn't leave dust and Erika's dust was destroyed when Rentar-Ihrno's Fortress gave way. You also can't be resurrected if you died of old age (which means I'm scewed, being 83!). I don't know alot but I do know magic. :cool: -------------------- My name's Solberg. Pronounced Sol-Berg. Exile/Avernum's Greatest LIVING Archmage! I'm sure you've heard of me at some point. Posts: 385 | Registered: Tuesday, November 20 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6336
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written Saturday, September 24 2005 16:35
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Hey baldy. I bet you'd never would've seen me on here. Quit lying about your age, you're really 87! Tell the truth. -------------------- Of all the people to be magically binded to, I have to be stuck with baldy. Why, oh why? Posts: 4 | Registered: Saturday, September 24 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, September 24 2005 16:51
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I am reasonably certain that most adventurers who are reduced to dust would remain unressurected if 99% of the powder were required, as at least 1% would immediately float away in Brownian fashion and the unfortunate deceased's companion's would probably lack any way to confine and transport enormous amounts of dust anyway. —Alorael, who is more inclined to believe that the gods of resurrection smile upon plucky bands of adventurers, especially those who are Avernite. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6337
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written Sunday, September 25 2005 04:02
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Well for the ressurection spell, Gahzad vaporised, so he cannot revive, and as for Erica, She's too powerful to be revived! She would have needed the finest balm of all avernum , and maybe a day she will be revived (Why have you said she died! I didn't known it, I haven't yet finished avernum 3!) And for the others spell, I think many thingd have to be chnaged, for example, why doesn't the spell list grow from one game to an other? why is ti nedded to have 20 spells by class??? Why to have taken out the bind foe spell! (it was sooo cool). The exile spells were cool too for example I truely prefers the Fireball from exile than the fire blast, a zone hurt was a great idea, with the principal cible, whith more dsamages, it was cool and ligical, tha might be the difference between fireblast and divine fire, and for ice mances and lightning sqpray, the ice lances could slow cibles for example and the lignthning spray might prevent casting spells for a turn or sumethning like that, And what about flame cloud? My favorite spell! :'( I think in Avernum 4 there might be much more spells, I am sure many gamers would enjoy helping the developpers for that purpose... There is one other thing I regret from exile, Why can't we take a weapon in each hands!!!! Plerase mr developpers, hear my cry and bring back thoose cool thing from exile to avernum! (I know a weapo,n in each hand can be powerful but with great disaventages It can eb balanced and fun!) And for the magic weapons I think that It might be possible for people to add tree + to a weapon but it will be much more expensive each times, and why can't we take out a + we added (I remember the waweblade I got in avernum 3, whom I added a +10 to ice and regreted it since It was the last the vanati mercan could offer :'( and there is no way to get one via the character editor... -------------------- Hrrmrrr drew his sword and strode forth from the crude, poor mud hut in wich the nice feline creature lived with his great brethren. "Now I go forth!" he cried. "Now I go, and slay humans, and butcher their children, and interfere with their farm animals foully. For that is my purpose on this Earth. And the Empire shall never get all of us, no matter what they do!" -THE FURY OF THE NEPHILIM (With slight changes by Retrency) Posts: 10 | Registered: Sunday, September 25 2005 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 6136
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written Sunday, September 25 2005 09:09
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well Taiko that almost ALL of us want the spells back, some people (like me fir example) has writen a HUGE wish list for avernum 4.Oh, you didn´t knew that erika died?well she dies in the end of the game, in renthar-irno keep,but then you win the game.but dont worry that erika will be resurrected soon, right mister developer? :mad: . i see that you are new here, isn´t nice? Posts: 446 | Registered: Friday, July 22 2005 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Sunday, September 25 2005 09:34
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Erika stays dead, but other powerful wizards may come back :rolleyes: . Also, the spell system is much nicer than Avernum's or Geneforge's. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 6136
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written Sunday, September 25 2005 15:21
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quote:well i really like that part, i hope thet tou be right, cause better spells is the most wanted thing in A4 Posts: 446 | Registered: Friday, July 22 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Sunday, September 25 2005 16:14
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So, Drakester, would you say magic is significantly more altered or enhanced for Avernum 4 than any previous changes for the Avernums? -------------------- A4 Item Locations A4 Singleton G4 Items List G4 Forging List The Insidious Infiltrator Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, September 25 2005 17:09
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He just said that the system is better than Avernum's or Geneforge's, which implies that it is not the same as Avernum's or Geneforge's. Since all the Avernums had the same system with a few spell changes, A4 must be significantly more different from all three Avernums than any previous Avernumw as from the others. —Alorael, who would like to know if the new spell system has useless spells that are also fun spells. Useless in an Acid Spray way is not the same as useless in a Quickfire way. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Master
Member # 5977
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written Monday, September 26 2005 07:24
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I was just thinking: if so many people complain about traits, spells or abilities in Canopy that are overdone or something, what do you guys think will be good or that the community will generally like? -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00 |
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