Linear Scenarios v. Non-Linear Scenarios: The doctrine of time = money

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Author	Topic: Linear Scenarios v. Non-Linear Scenarios: The doctrine of time = money
-silver- Cartographer Member # 995	written Friday, March 4 2005 22:19 Profile #0 If you're a novelist, once you have published some short stories in magazines, have an agent and a manuscript (or at least a good outline) and get lucky - you get paid to develop one - count 'em: one - story. If you're developing a BoA scenario, Jeff has forbidden you from finding any way to make money off of it, ever. If you're a game developer, you're either on a small group developing shareware for 20$ a pop, or a big group developing a game which might go for 60$ a pop (but most of the money in the latter group goes to the publisher)... If you're developing a BoA scenario, you're devoting you're free time to helping the BoA people have something more to do than see how much Fine Crafted Plate they can get by repeatedly beating Diplomacy with the Dead. So - no income and you're expected (by the vocal minority, it seems) of forum posters to provide for every contingency and every direction the party might make. Or barely a subsitance income to provide one story in the form of a novel or a game? ** OFF. Until you're sending me money to develop your world, or until you're providing "non-linear" scenarios and giving free advice how to handle all the choices without making what is already a couple months of free labor into That Much More work, I just don't want to hear how you're unhappy that I only wrote "one" story and didn't have all the different stories it would take if you decided on a different route. I can count all the BoA scenarios released or about to be released without taking off my socks. And, you know what? You're lucky those are happening because NO ONE IS GETTING JACK ** FOR WRITING THEM. I tried, for a while, to clone even Avernum1 into the BoA editor (and with all my detailed maps and info, I was in a position to do it), and you know what? Can't happen. The editor is (purposefully) limited in various arrays to prevent it. So I can't provide a full game in the Avernum universe. I can provide a scenario. Think about what the word "scenario" means. Think a lot. It's like a part of a game. A story within a game. Assassinating the emperor was one of three "big" scenarios Avernum1 provided. Avernum1 also provided many lesser scenarios. But it had the space to provide all that because it was a full game, not a single scenario. When you evaluate scenarios, remember that you're not rating it against Avernum1, you're rating it against, say, any of the three major scenarios within Avernum1. And you're not required to provide all the sidequests and minor scenarios because it's not a full game - players don't have to go from scratch to solving your world's problems. They just have your world's one problem to solve. Leveling up and non-linearity are accomplished through the fact that multiple scenarios exist. If you haven't developed a scenario yourself, or at least tried to (and a lot of people will start scenarios they will never finish because it's a LONG LONG process with LOTS AND LOTS of work which you are getting NOTHING for doing), ask yourself if you're really in a position to be telling the people who are devoting non-paid time for your entertainment that they needed to devote a hundred hours more before writing self-interested "articles" about "how to develop scenarios". Either that or pay me for a while (and it will take some months to see results) for a "full fledged make all your own choices" game. I only need about 3500$/month. [ Friday, March 04, 2005 22:23: Message edited by: silver harloe ] Posts: 206 \| Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Friday, March 4 2005 23:52 Profile Homepage #1 Well, the above may be a rant, but someone had to say it. I've done a fair bit of betatesting, and I try to help people make their scenario as good a scenario of its type as it can possibly be, but I don't want anyone to feel as if I'm telling them what kind of scenario to make. I'm very reluctant to give anyone advice on how to structure a plot, for example: in the end, if you're not making the scenario you want to make, you'll never finish it. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
SkeleTony Shock Trooper Member # 156	written Saturday, March 5 2005 05:04 Profile #2 It's not just a rant. It's a misguided act of complete stupidity! Who told this moron he had to write scenarios a certain way?!? Was anybody proposing some sort of mandate by which all scenario authors should construct scenarios? You feel unappreciated(for whatever bizarre, imagined reason) Harloe? Fine. Stop writing scenarios then. Or write them and send them only to specific people you think will truly appreciate your hard work. But whatever you do, quit crying because some of us have our own preferences about general CRPG gameplay. For the most part I enjoy all the scenarios that have been written for BoA thus far and if there are any I ssupect I will not enjoy then I simply don't download them. I don't start a thread compalining that "I would like to download them if only they were less linear" or some crap! You need to get over yourself chump. [ Saturday, March 05, 2005 05:05: Message edited by: SkeleTony ] -------------------- "I am in a very peculiar business. I travel all over the world telling people what they should already know." - James Randi Posts: 219 \| Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00
ef Guardian Member # 2476	written Saturday, March 5 2005 05:35 Profile #3 Ever seen silver's maps, Skele Tony? Avernum 1 -------------------- Polaris Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done Rache's A3 Site, original version Posts: 1828 \| Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
drafter Warrior Member # 5322	written Saturday, March 5 2005 06:48 Profile #4 ever seen the Code of Conduct of these boards, SkeleTony (pfft, this goes partially to Silver, too, now that i think of it. :P )? Code of Conduct [ Saturday, March 05, 2005 07:20: Message edited by: cradial ] Posts: 73 \| Registered: Saturday, December 25 2004 08:00
PoD person Shock Trooper Member # 4445	written Saturday, March 5 2005 06:50 Profile #5 This was probably a better idea than my more abstract defense of linearity. Kudos, silver, for saying what needed to be said. Posts: 293 \| Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Saturday, March 5 2005 06:58 Profile Homepage #6 In a related point, allow me to repeat myself: You can make whatever kind of scenario you like. Trying to get someone else to make the kind of scenario that you like is probably not going to work. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
DreamGuy Warrior Member # 5415	written Saturday, March 5 2005 07:10 Profile #7 The problem with the incoherent and meanspirited rant by the original poster is that it doesn;t make sense as an argument. If you want to put your time into making a scenario, hey, that's fine, but don't get all whiney and insulting when people talk about the fact that scenarios have certain things about them that make them better. If you are offended that your scenario doesn't live up to those standards, that's your problem. I mean, come on, this is just like anything else. If you take your time and try out for American Idol because you think you can sing well enough to be on TV and get a recording contract and you can't, don't get all psychotic on the judges. If you take up painting as a hobby but don't get paid for it and you don't even try to learn the basics of how to do a good job of it, don't go freaking out on people who point out little things like perspective and so forth that artists should use. The basic point here is that people are talking about what makes a good scenario. if you don't care, that's fine, don't make a good one. But don't expect people to lie to you and say it's perfect. And, beyond that, the whole argument of time equals money falls apart on the linearity thing because you can spend the same amount of time developing a non-linear adventure as you do making a linear one. If you choose to spend the same time making a scenario without options, that's your choice, but people are more than free to tell you that the end result is a lot less of a game than it could have been if you had actually put some thought into it. Posts: 62 \| Registered: Thursday, January 20 2005 08:00
drafter Warrior Member # 5322	written Saturday, March 5 2005 07:28 Profile #8 quote: And, beyond that, the whole argument of time equals money falls apart on the linearity thing because you can spend the same amount of time developing a non-linear adventure as you do making a linear one. If you choose to spend the same time making a scenario without options, that's your choice, but people are more than free to tell you that the end result is a lot less of a game than it could have been if you had actually put some thought into it. making a scenario without options.. that's your definition of a linear scenario? so, basically, there are no linear scenarios at all? oh, and a carefully crafted, although linear (linear seems to be a bad word, nowadays) plot means that the scenario's designer obviously can't have put no thought into his scenario at all? :P [ Saturday, March 05, 2005 07:29: Message edited by: cradial ] Posts: 73 \| Registered: Saturday, December 25 2004 08:00
-silver- Cartographer Member # 995	written Saturday, March 5 2005 07:56 Profile #9 I'd be happy to listen to suggestions on how to improve scenarios from people who have tried to do it. just like if I went to american idol, I'd be judged by singers. until you've tried to do something, you don't know the limitations of the medium, and asking for blood from a stone isn't going to help. the suggestion "make more stuff to do" isn't helpful. the suggestion, "what if you offered XYZ option at point ABC" is helpful. yah, I was ranting. I was drunk. but I had just read the 540th post saying how awful it was that people were writing one story instead twenty, and it bugs me that people make such demands on other people's time. without really suggesting ways to improve it besides "add more". [ Saturday, March 05, 2005 08:00: Message edited by: silver harloe ] Posts: 206 \| Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
SkeleTony Shock Trooper Member # 156	written Saturday, March 5 2005 08:17 Profile #10 quote: Originally written by ef: Ever seen silver's maps, Skele Tony? Avernum 1 Objection! Relevance...? -------------------- "I am in a very peculiar business. I travel all over the world telling people what they should already know." - James Randi Posts: 219 \| Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00
SkeleTony Shock Trooper Member # 156	written Saturday, March 5 2005 08:28 Profile #11 quote: Originally written by cradial: ever seen the Code of Conduct of these boards, SkeleTony (pfft, this goes partially to Silver, too, now that i think of it. :P )? Code of Conduct Let me get this straight...Silver posts a viciously insulting rant adn tells us all to "** Off!" and I respond as I did(which was rather appropriate if you ask me) adn you chastise ME primarily while adding that the same could apply to Silver as an afterthought?!? Let ME try and create a thread wherein I go off on anyone who doesn't appreciate the same things I appreciate, the same way I do, telling them all to " Off!" and such and see how many people reply with "That needed to be said." as opposed to a mod locking and or deleting the thread in record time. I know the perception is that Silver is a regular and I am not, probably because he has posted consistently for however long he has been here. This perception will usually lead to knee-jerk reactions of siding with said "regular". But I have been here for as long as Spiderweb has had forums and none of this should matter anyway! HE was WRONG. It does not even matter if you personally agree with his rant and wanted to say much the same for whatever emotional reasons. He violated the CoC and if he had not done so, there would be no dissenting replies from me or anyone else. Take your boy out to the woodshed. -------------------- "I am in a very peculiar business. I travel all over the world telling people what they should already know." - James Randi Posts: 219 \| Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00**
drafter Warrior Member # 5322	written Saturday, March 5 2005 08:35 Profile #12 hubblabubbla and so forth, eh (= cross-post from the other thread): quote: Originally written by SkeleTony: ..I would not go to a message board and post rant after rant telling people who don't prefer my style to "** OFF!" like Harloe did. either you misunderstood, or just completely ignored what Silver actually wrote, just to, possibly, get to cleverly use his, IMHO, quite fine "rant" against him. the words " OFF" weren't, to my eyes, directed at designers who don't agree with Silver's methods and style of working in general. they were directed to people demanding designers to add more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more to their sceanrios, not realizing that the designer uses his free time, doesn't get paid, etc. just my, uh, how's it said.. 2 cents (?), though. if it's me who completely misunderstood Silver's post, though, feel free to correct me. ^^ part of Silver's original post: quote: If you're developing a BoA scenario, you're devoting you're free time to helping the BoA people have something more to do than see how much Fine Crafted Plate they can get by repeatedly beating Diplomacy with the Dead. So - no income and you're expected (by the vocal minority, it seems) of forum posters to provide for every contingency and every direction the party might make. Or barely a subsitance income to provide one story in the form of a novel or a game? OFF. Until you're sending me money to develop your world, or until you're providing "non-linear" scenarios and giving free advice how to handle all the choices without making what is already a couple months of free labor into That Much More work, I just don't want to hear how you're unhappy that I only wrote "one" story and didn't have all the different stories it would take if you decided on a different route. I can count all the BoA scenarios released or about to be released without taking off my socks. And, you know what? You're lucky those are happening because NO ONE IS GETTING JACK FOR WRITING THEM. also, you'd, quite damn likely replayed in the same way as you did now. it's not the " OFF" that ticked you off, and we both know it, since the words weren't even targeted at you as a person. [ Saturday, March 05, 2005 08:42: Message edited by: cradial ] Posts: 73 \| Registered: Saturday, December 25 2004 08:00**
SkeleTony Shock Trooper Member # 156	written Saturday, March 5 2005 08:36 Profile #13 quote: Originally written by silver harloe: I'd be happy to listen to suggestions on how to improve scenarios from people who have tried to do it. just like if I went to american idol, I'd be judged by singers. 1)Who here has made suggestions to you about how you should write your scenarios?? 2)Only one of the American Idol judges is a singer(and it is arguable whether Mrs. Abdul is indeed a "singer"). 3)We, as PLAYERS of CRPGS are entitled to our own preferences and even OPINIONS if we so choose to express them! No one is telling YOU to do ANYTHING! Are you seriously suggesting we can not hold such views unless we make scenarios in BoA? quote: until you've tried to do something, you don't know the limitations of the medium, and asking for blood from a stone isn't going to help. the suggestion "make more stuff to do" isn't helpful. the suggestion, "what if you offered XYZ option at point ABC" is helpful. I am not interested in suggesting ANYTHING to you. I want YOU to write the scenarios YOU want to write. If I get around to finishing a scenario then it will be the one I want to write(linear or otherwise). quote: yah, I was ranting. I was drunk. but I had just read the 540th post saying how awful it was that people were writing one story instead twenty, and it bugs me that people make such demands on other people's time. without really suggesting ways to improve it besides "add more". If you read 540 posts that were critical of linearity then you also noticed the 3,875 posts defending linearity(since we are exaggerating)! Strawman mischaracterizations of the 'non-linear group do not help you. I think the words you are looking for are "I am sorry about the uncalled for and insulting rant." -------------------- "I am in a very peculiar business. I travel all over the world telling people what they should already know." - James Randi Posts: 219 \| Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00
SkeleTony Shock Trooper Member # 156	written Saturday, March 5 2005 08:42 Profile #14 quote: Originally written by cradial: hubblabubbla and so forth, eh (= cross-post from the other thread): quote: Originally written by SkeleTony: ..I would not go to a message board and post rant after rant telling people who don't prefer my style to "** OFF!" like Harloe did. either you misunderstood, or just completely ignored what Silver actually wrote, just to, possibly, get to cleverly use his, IMHO, quite fine "rant" against him. the words " OFF" weren't, to my eyes, directed at designers who don't agree with Silver's methods and style of working in general. they were directed to people demanding designers to add more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more to their sceanrios, not realizing that the designer uses his free time, doesn't get paid, etc. Where in his rant do you see the words "This is directed at those who are demanding I add more and more to my scenarios."? Who at these forums has demanded that ANYONE(esp. Harloe) add more and more and more and more to their scnearios? This rant was one big strawman which he chose to set aflame and stomp on. quote: just my, uh, how's it said.. 2 cents (?), though. if it's me who completely misunderstood Silver's post, though, feel free to correct me. ^^ Consider yourself corrected. -------------------- "I am in a very peculiar business. I travel all over the world telling people what they should already know." - James Randi Posts: 219 \| Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00**
drafter Warrior Member # 5322	written Saturday, March 5 2005 08:48 Profile #15 quote: Originally written by SkeleTony: 3)We, as PLAYERS of CRPGS are entitled to our own preferences and even OPINIONS if we so choose to express them! No one is telling YOU to do ANYTHING! Are you seriously suggesting we can not hold such views unless we make scenarios in BoA? no, just that it's not even reasonable that you demand things without even being aware of the time implementing the stuff would consume, silly. please note, you totally ignored that part of Silver's post, once again. quote: until you've tried to do something, you don't know the limitations of the medium :eek: :eek: :eek: quote: I think the words you are looking for are "I am sorry about the uncalled for and insulting rant." Now, are you the same person who defended THE RIGHT TO EXPRESS ONE'S OPINIONS earlier, or not? Because that's what Silver did. Eh? Posts: 73 \| Registered: Saturday, December 25 2004 08:00
drafter Warrior Member # 5322	written Saturday, March 5 2005 08:51 Profile #16 quote: Where in his rant do you see the words "This is directed at those who are demanding I add more and more to my scenarios."? Who at these forums has demanded that ANYONE(esp. Harloe) add more and more and more and more to their scnearios? i must admit, that i only assumed he meant that, since, it seems to me, IT'S WHY HE WROTE THE GODDAMN TEXT IN THE FIRST PLACE. quote: just my, uh, how's it said.. 2 cents (?), though. if it's me who completely misunderstood Silver's post, though, feel free to correct me. ^^ na-a. not yet. [ Saturday, March 05, 2005 08:53: Message edited by: cradial ] Posts: 73 \| Registered: Saturday, December 25 2004 08:00
Custer Bob's Big Date Member # 3151	written Saturday, March 5 2005 09:25 Profile Homepage #17 Silver, that was genius and perhaps the first BoA design article I've considered a pleasure to read. Thank you. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 \| Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
-silver- Cartographer Member # 995	written Saturday, March 5 2005 10:21 Profile #18 Yes, well, CoC gives me 2 minor infractions for it: "+ Using vulgarity in any language (whether it's in the open, masked, or abbreviated)" So it should be locked and burned. and certainly not replied to. but I didn't go around calling people morons. and certainly not specific people. that would be a major CoC infraction. I just expressed a "get off our backs" attitude in way too loud of terms. [ Saturday, March 05, 2005 10:23: Message edited by: silver harloe ] Posts: 206 \| Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
ef Guardian Member # 2476	written Saturday, March 5 2005 10:34 Profile #19 quote: quote:Originally written by ef: Ever seen silver's maps, Skele Tony? Avernum 1 Objection! Relevance...? Well, if nothing else, they prove he's not a moron. Also, that he has already offered his free and unpaid time to contribute to the community. Moreover, the very nature of the maps suggest he knows what he does when programming. -------------------- Polaris Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done Rache's A3 Site, original version Posts: 1828 \| Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Drakefyre Triad Mage Member # 7	written Saturday, March 5 2005 11:11 Profile Homepage #20 quote: Originally written by SkeleTony: I don't start a thread compalining that "I would like to download them if only they were less linear" or some crap! But if they provide a party for you to use ... What silver's saying is that a scenario designer should make what they want to make, and if you want something different, make it yourself. Or pay him, and he'll do it for you. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Notus Warrior Member # 5289	written Saturday, March 5 2005 11:58 Profile #21 silver harloe wrote: quote: The editor is (purposefully) limited in various arrays to prevent it. So I can't provide a full game in the Avernum universe. Personally, I want to know in which item he found limitation. Surely the editor limits many items. For instance, the editor limits the number of outdoor sections up to 100, but BoA application accepts more. I tried it with 20x20 section, and it worked on BoA application. If the limitation is only on the editor and BoA application accepts more, I can fit it to the true limitation on the editor. -------------------- Project: BoA Editor Remake on SourceForge.net supports "3D BoA Editor" (Mac and Win), and creates advanced BoA Editor. Posts: 107 \| Registered: Tuesday, December 14 2004 08:00
Drakefyre Triad Mage Member # 7	written Saturday, March 5 2005 12:03 Profile Homepage #22 My feeling is that it is the Blades engine itself that is limiting, not really the editor, at least in this sense. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Dahak Infiltrator Member # 148	written Saturday, March 5 2005 12:23 Profile #23 quote: Originally written by Notus: silver harloe wrote: quote: The editor is (purposefully) limited in various arrays to prevent it. So I can't provide a full game in the Avernum universe. Personally, I want to know in which item he found limitation. Surely the editor limits many items. For instance, the editor limits the number of outdoor sections up to 100, but BoA application accepts more. I tried it with 20x20 section, and it worked on BoA application. If the limitation is only on the editor and BoA application accepts more, I can fit it to the true limitation on the editor. Out of curiosity, what is the max number of towns the BoA engine can really handle? -------------------- My ego is bigger than yours. Posts: 480 \| Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00
Notus Warrior Member # 5289	written Saturday, March 5 2005 12:35 Profile #24 quote: Out of curiosity, what is the max number of towns the BoA engine can really handle? It's 200. And it isn't expandable. If this figure changed, .bas file falls in out of order. class scenario_data_type { ... // town data unsigned char town_size[200]; // 0 - large, 1 - medium, 2 - small unsigned char town_starts_hidden[200]; quote: My feeling is that it is the Blades engine itself that is limiting, not really the editor, at least in this sense. Also from my impression, if the limitation is lower than A1-A3, it isn't intentional. JV is too lazy to do such a thing. His programing style is copy-paste basically. And I wonder why silver harloe used the editor. He is a programmer, he can write Java and Perl code. If the BoE scenario could be converted 60%-70% to BoA scenario, A1-3 is more compatible. He could try to make an automatic converter using the editor code. Anyway, I have no interest to make the A1-3 converter. [ Saturday, March 05, 2005 13:56: Message edited by: Notus ] -------------------- Project: BoA Editor Remake on SourceForge.net supports "3D BoA Editor" (Mac and Win), and creates advanced BoA Editor. Posts: 107 \| Registered: Tuesday, December 14 2004 08:00