playing a guardian?

AuthorTopic: playing a guardian?
Apprentice
Member # 5451
Profile #0
HI

should i put anything into shaping....what skills are the best for a guardian?

Tom
Posts: 12 | Registered: Saturday, January 29 2005 08:00
BANNED
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Profile #1
The most obvious is the creation screen, where it says strong and weak. Guardians rely on strength. Invest in fighting skills, as well as default, such as strength and dexterity. Endurance is also helpful, but you won't need intelligence. Also general skills are good. If you are a guardian you won't really need shaping or magic skills. You should be stronger than all your creations, unlike a shaper.

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Posts: 394 | Registered: Saturday, November 20 2004 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 5498
Profile #2
my personal experience with Guardians and creations- make one artilla and one fyora ASAP, and keep them alive. Other than that, just ignore them. Ocassionally a thadd to walk through mines is usefull. Guardians are melee fighters, and should only need creations to pick off weaklings on the sidelines, or to hit something you either can't get to or haven't reached yet.

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He who giggles for joy everytime he hears the talking skulls voice.
Posts: 31 | Registered: Sunday, February 13 2005 08:00
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Profile Homepage #3
And while this may seem like a waste of skill points, sometimes it's a good thing to have a few levels in Healing Craft, as well as even a few errant skill points in something like Blessing Magic.

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人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ
Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #4
In anticipation of GF3, my general interest in GFology (geneforgery?) is slowly reviving.

The problem with just pumping up melee, and only keeping a few early critters, is that it makes playing a Guardian feel a bit too much like playing an Agent. Sure, you're hitting instead of zapping, but it's still mostly just you taking on the monsters solo.

I always want to try to make the Guardian somewhere between the Agent and Shaper in style, by keeping a small team of good creations, with the Guardian as squad leader. Usually a couple of Artilas or Vlish seem like a good idea, to give my super-grunt some fire support. Somehow I've never really gotten this to work out, though. At some point the power of my Guardian surges so far ahead of the only creations he can make, that just keeping them alive becomes pointless and tedious. So long before the endgame, I find I've 'gone Matrix' (as in Colonel Matrix of _Commando_), and I'm taking out the enemy single-handed.

I think this is partly because abilities like Unlock and Speed are so attractive that I end up putting a fair number of points into magic, and have too little left to keep up both combat and creations. It might well be that if I tried harder I could get the squad-leader-Guardian to work better (just as I could probably find a way to make missile weapons work well for me, if I specialized in them consistently enough). Maybe there is some problem in balance with the Guardian; or maybe it's just that I really don't enjoy the micromanagement of creations, so I tend to slip into Agent-like solo mode as soon as I can.

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It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 5498
Profile #5
Hmm? How is it that you can't keep your creations close enough to you, or far enough behind that they end up dieing?
Anyways, your creations WILL end up as meatshields somewhere around level 25-30, but then again, that is their main function, even for shapers at endgame(genralization, the cryodryaks and battle betas can fight there, but thats about it.)

Sorry, i didn't notice yoru second question there tomster. By far the most vital stats for a Guardian are strength and dexterity, with melee weapons up to 10 a necessity, and quick action and anatomy falling in to tie for fourth, but at endgame, they overtake the dieing need for more melee skill. put about five points into missile at your convienance, and carry five to ten javelins for those times when you need to deal damage from a distance. But then again, thats what your fyora and artilla are for.
Also, altough this stategy falls under the agents realm, try to lure out enemies one at a time, and you can effectivly eliminate your need for healing spells/spores/pods. Keep a few around, though.

Also, you should never need to use a battle creation for actual battle, you yourself will always be superior to anything you can create for that purpose, unless you are going for a 'fake class' game, when you will already have mapped out your skill choices (at least partially) anyway, so.

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He who giggles for joy everytime he hears the talking skulls voice.
Posts: 31 | Registered: Sunday, February 13 2005 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #6
It's not that my creations fall behind me literally! Its that my Guardian's power so far outstrips theirs, that the amount of help they give me doesn't seem to justify the effort involved in keeping them alive. Even just using them as meatshields involves, at the very least, the tedious and distasteful exercise of micromanaging mass suicide in combat mode. For less effort, or at least for effort I find more agreeable, I can break up enemy groups with the Agent-like tactics you mention, of luring some around corners.

In the earlier stages of the game, I do find a few stalwart Artilas or Vlishes essential. But towards the end I seem to get more bang for my buck out of speed spells.

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It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 5498
Profile #7
wait, did you just try to argue with me by paraphrasing what I said? At teh begining, ranged creations, at end, creations useless, yup!
I tend to keep my artilla around just because its fun to kill the bigwigs with acid from a level 1 creation.(skill level, not exp level)

Also, if ever your in teh mood for a good laugh, use pyromroamers as meatshields! Now THATS micromanaging suicide!

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He who giggles for joy everytime he hears the talking skulls voice.
Posts: 31 | Registered: Sunday, February 13 2005 08:00
Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
Profile #8
You definitely shouldn't neglect your creations, no matter which Shaper type you choose. I successfully implemented Trinity's "squad leader" approach, and my Guardian is my best character by far. Keep your combat stats up, to be sure, but it's always nice to have a meatshield that does more damage than it takes. Also, I almost always use some sort of unranged weapon - if you do too, you're definitely going to want a ranged creation.

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And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it.
-The Last Pendragon

Polaris = joy.

In case of emergency, break glass.
Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #9
Nice to hear that the 'squad leader' Guardian can indeed be followed through to the endgame. I'll have to try harder next time.

But I really don't know about Agents keeping creations. It costs so many skill points, and so much essence, that are both better used elsewhere. And anyway much of the fun of playing an Agent is that you don't have to worry about looking after pets.

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It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 3607
Profile #10
I am currently playing a Guardian at dificulty level: tricky. I decided to specialize in one type of creation since learning more than one would use too many skill points that I need for combat and stats. I decided on magic shaping, althougn fire shaping would have been a good choice as well. I wanted a group of creations that included randged combatants as well as close combat experts. The Ur-Glaahks looked really good to me, and I have been experimenting with Vlish and Terror Vlish. Artilas and Searing Artilas have been disappointing for the end game.

I eventually added 4 levels to Magic Shaping, which combined with the canisters, tombs, and Shapers Robe, allows me to make 24th level Ur-Glaahks. They are a little tougher than the rogue Ur-Glaahks in the Shaper's/Inner Tombs. I also recommend adding at least 2 points of intelligence, so that with the canisters and items you have a 10 intelligence. This will give you enough essence at 20th level to have 3-5 creations, depending on what they are.

I have found that the Ur-Glaahks and Vlish/Terror Vlish are effective combatants and my Guardian is working more as a care taker than a fighter. He did make it to 19th level on his own before I started using creations.

Obviously there is a trade off on points. I have only put points into Healing Craft, and not any of the other types of magic.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Monday, October 27 2003 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #11
Hmmm. I still have the feeling that Guardians are unstable against morphing into burlier Shapers or Agents. That is, either they outstrip creations and become lone warriors that rely on speed like Agents, or else they look after a squad of creations like a Shaper, without doing much fighting themselves.
What I feel is missing is a 'killer app' for Guardians -- an effective basic tactic that they can do, that the other two classes cannot do.

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It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Warrior
Member # 5363
Profile Homepage #12
Well, in my mind, you can be one of 2 types of guardians, A shaping guardian, or a fighting one. You can put all of your points into fighting. I find this to give me an advantage early and a disadvantage late, being an agent that can fight very well, but will have no magic. However, taking a shaping Guardian will give you a bonus later, In other words, you are a shaper that can actually fight. However, you will have to go without blessing magic. My advice, forget about shaping until you reach the end of the demo part, then concentrate your skills on shaping. The fighting later on will be limited as your skill cost will increase at an alarming rate.

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Learn from others mistakes. Its safer
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Posts: 100 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 3122
Profile #13
Guardians are, in my opinion, the easiest to start with, and the hardest to play later on. They don't die with two fire bolts :rolleyes: like a shaper, and they can easily tear most early enemies limb from limb. However, unless they learn alot of anatomy and melee weapon skill, they'll be hurtin' later on.

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Posts: 19 | Registered: Thursday, June 19 2003 07:00
Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
Profile #14
True, and if you keep some strong creations around, there will be more to share the diminished pain.

Trinity, you're probably right about the Agent - I haven't had much luck with her compared with my others.

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And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it.
-The Last Pendragon

Polaris = joy.

In case of emergency, break glass.
Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 3122
Profile #15
In Geneforge 2, i got farther with an Agent than any other character. they start swow because they have no creations and they don't have quiote the combat prowess of the guardian, but later on they can become powerhouses of magical destruction.

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It slices, it dices, and yes, makes french fries in 2,089 different ways!
Posts: 19 | Registered: Thursday, June 19 2003 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #16
Well, it could be that the 'killer app' for Guardians is just to be the easy class for beginners to get started with. What I think I'd like better, though, would be for Guardians to have a special affinity for Battle creations. I always tend to avoid those as a Shaper, so if Guardians used them really well it would make the game quite a bit different: manoeuvring your troops into close contact would be a major feature unique to the Guardian game.

Agents definitely work well as singletons, in both GFs. I've never really thought about trying them other ways, because other strategies would make them more like Shapers or Guardians, and I like them to be different.

What might be interesting, though, is to try a Shaper that is a bit Agent-like: accept a somewhat weaker creation army, but have high enough Battle Magic to give them good fire support.

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It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Warrior
Member # 5363
Profile Homepage #17
Especcially in GF2, guardians get a lot trikier to play later on. Their fighting skills get very expensive very quickly. And about creating, they dont have the EP of the shaper and perhaps more importantly lack the blessing magic to enhance your creations. And they dont get much better at thier fighting skills. So, yes, guardians are very hard to use later. The only thing going for them is that they can get a very good parry which can make them hard to hurt.(They dont have that in GF1)

Oh, and just a suggestion: get only one area of shaping, forget 2 of them. (Personally, I would suggest fire shaping)

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Learn from others mistakes. Its safer
and more entertaining than learning on your own.
Posts: 100 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 4248
Profile #18
When I play guardian, I leave magic completely unnoticed, and concentrate all my skillpoints in combat and creation skills. I find it helpfull to have a cryoa or two around, even at the end game. Oh, and the thing said about strenght and dexterity is true: they are the most important skills for a fighter.

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Somebody PLEASE turn the heat on.
Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #19
I love Parry in my Guardian, at least in GF2 and GF3. Dexterity isn't really that important, at least early on. Quicksilver items can help a Guardian the most, IMO, since the spellcraft reductions mean nothing.

A fyora or drayk is always a welcome friend.

[ Sunday, March 06, 2005 07:39: Message edited by: Drakefyre ]

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Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #20
In GF1 at least, and I think in GF2 as well, what Quicksilver reduces is Strength, not Spellcraft; and that does hit Guardians. Has this been changed in GF3?

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It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #21
I'm pretty sure that the Quicksilver items took two off of Spellcraft.

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
====
Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy
desperance.net - We're Everywhere
====
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Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #22
Checking the FAQ confirms we're both right. Quicksilver boots dock Strength, Quicksilver Chitin and Chain reduce Spellcraft, and Quicksilver Plate only lowers attack strength. The Emerald Chestguard is great because it only penalizes Couture.

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It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 5595
Profile #23
I've noticed that if you create a monster and use it to walk past the coloured mines the mines won't explode, but when "you" walk close to it, the mines do indeed explode. If the maps are any bigger you could use the monster as a scout
Posts: 36 | Registered: Tuesday, March 15 2005 08:00
Warrior
Member # 3667
Profile #24
quote:
Originally written by tomster:

HI

should i put anything into shaping....what skills are the best for a guardian?

Tom

Well, i played the entire, yes the entire, demo of G1, as a guardian, i had an army of Creations at my side, casted fireballs, and hit like a Drake. You need to work on everything you can.

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Posts: 69 | Registered: Saturday, November 8 2003 08:00