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Agent
Member # 1359
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written Friday, May 16 2003 21:12
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True, it is much more difficult for Mr. Joe Nota Machinist to grow guns that to grow weed. Still, it's not that hard to smuggle stuff. -------------------- 'The term Anarchy got bandied about a lot in the early 80's, perhaps having some amount of political or social meaning attached at the outset, but by the first couple of years, it simply became a synonym for "blow **** up".' --textfiles.com Posts: 1277 | Registered: Monday, June 24 2002 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, May 17 2003 08:15
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Yes, serious criminals will probably always have access to guns. But most crimes aren't committed by serious criminals who would look on the black market. And since there are far more cases of people being injured or killed by their own guns than saving themselves with guns, it's statistically better to ban guns and accept that a few criminals will have an easier time because of it. ?Alorael, who still doesn't see any reason to legalize uzis. Weapons made for killing many people very fast are a strange choice for self-protection or hunting, but they're a great way to work off anger. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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For Carnage, Apply Within
Member # 95
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written Saturday, May 17 2003 08:55
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People who say that the Constitution makes the right to bear arms inalienable don't seem to be reading it very carefully: quote:The Second Amendment is phrased as a conditional statement. Because statement A (the need for a militia) is true, statement B (the right to gun ownership) is also true. Logically, if this first statement becomes false, as it has, the second is no longer valid. [ Saturday, May 17, 2003 08:57: Message edited by: [Sarachim] ] -------------------- It matters not whether you win or lose; what matters is whether I win or lose. Posts: 567 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, May 17 2003 12:02
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I always see it as a matter of usefulness. No matter what guns you arm your militia with, it can't compete with armored vehicles and aircraft. That's why the right to bear arms to form a militia is no longer a valid concept. You can either see that as making the right outmoded or a reason to put cruise missiles and tactical nukes on the mass market. ?Alorael, who opts for the latter. At least it would turn the leftovers of the Cold War into useful economic stimulus for a short time before the world goes up in flames and irradiated dust. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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For Carnage, Apply Within
Member # 95
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written Saturday, May 17 2003 14:19
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Alorael makes a good point. If ordinary, law-abiding citizens can't keep tanks or F-14s in their garage, they'll be unable to defend themselves from the criminals who are going to get tanks and planes on the black market no matter what you do. -------------------- It matters not whether you win or lose; what matters is whether I win or lose. Posts: 567 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 1823
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written Sunday, May 18 2003 10:47
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And you must consider how these things get onto the black market in the first place. There are two possible sources that I can think of. Firstly - from the military. Now, it is extremely unlikely that guns would go from the military, as they are extraordinarilly well protected. Secondly - from those who buy guns legally in the first place, by whatever means (eg. theft, selling on etc.) Now, if people were not allowed to buy these guns in the first place (ie. guns were banned) they would not get onto the black market - severely reducing the number of guns available to buy for criminals. -------------------- Riot Shields Voodoo Economics It's just business Cattle prods And the IMF I trust I can rely on your vote Posts: 530 | Registered: Sunday, September 1 2002 07:00 |
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For Carnage, Apply Within
Member # 95
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written Sunday, May 18 2003 11:07
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You left out smuggling. I think smuggling is a much bigger source of illegal guns than either of the two you named. -------------------- It matters not whether you win or lose; what matters is whether I win or lose. Posts: 567 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2669
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written Sunday, May 18 2003 12:16
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I'd have to disagree with the assertion that military weapons are well-protected. The GAO (General Accounting Office) did an inventory of the Army not too long ago, and found something like 200,000 items worth US$400 million missing. At some point, the army had 'lost' a surface-to-air missle battery. Sure, most of these are probably accounting errors, but if you have such a huge army as the US does and are spread over as many countries as the US is, soldiers selling off materiel for a few extra bucks or locals helping themselves to stockpiles will practically be the order of the day. If you're interested in the GAO report: http://www.fas.org/asmp/resources/govern/ns00109.pdf -------------------- ... Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1359
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written Sunday, May 18 2003 20:53
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The only way to keep assault weapons off the black market would be to ban them world-wide. Of course, that wouldn't work because country X would break the ban and start making them. Then everyone else would have to start making their own assault weapons again, or submit to country X. -------------------- 'The term Anarchy got bandied about a lot in the early 80's, perhaps having some amount of political or social meaning attached at the outset, but by the first couple of years, it simply became a synonym for "blow **** up".' --textfiles.com Posts: 1277 | Registered: Monday, June 24 2002 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 2128
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written Monday, May 19 2003 05:55
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Not to mention, that X would most likely be USA. I´m just happy, that most people in my country do not owe a weapon. There is no need for weapon-controls in most schools, and I´m happy about this, because school shouldn´t be like prisons. Yes, even here are people going amok from time to time, and last year a pupil shoot 12 teacher, a secretary, 2 pupils an one policeman. He had his weapons because he was an hobby-gunmen. The national consequece was, that the laws for owing a weapon are sharpened, and that is just right. The question ist: how can I protect me by owing an weapon? My answer: not at all. I someone wants to shoot me, he will. I guess, nobody will be impressed, when I say "wait a moment, I have a gun at home". It will protect me better, if less people will be able to get a gun. I hope, you can understand my point of view, the theme is difficult, and my last english lesson was 8 years ago. [ Tuesday, May 20, 2003 10:44: Message edited by: Iolanda ] Posts: 55 | Registered: Tuesday, October 22 2002 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 1823
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written Monday, May 19 2003 10:16
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Well, yes, smuggling is a big source, which, being stupid, I forgot. But then smuggled weapons are already on the black market, and they must have got there somehow, probably by one of the methods I named. However, banning guns will still limit one of the main sources of illegal weapons on the black market, which can always help. Of course customs checks also must be vigorous to try and prevent smuggling as much as possible, but that is a different matter. And Iolanda, your English was excellent. The best I could say in German is that I am a donkey (Ich bin ein Aesel or something like that) -------------------- Riot Shields Voodoo Economics It's just business Cattle prods And the IMF I trust I can rely on your vote Posts: 530 | Registered: Sunday, September 1 2002 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 2956
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written Monday, May 19 2003 11:30
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A. Iolanda, your english is better then some americans, and then you know at least one more language on the side, always good. B. If weapons where baned all over the world. That's asuming the world as a whole agrees with this idea. And i'm infering that you mean ban the public use and ownership of weapons. If such does happen, smuggling is going to get worse. If you mean the baning of weapons all over the world as a whole, gov't included (which is never going to happen, unfortunatly) any terrorist organisation will have much easier time to put it's actions and plans into effect. Exiting the US's mentality of weapons, there are countries where weapons in the public are not abused and are almost a necesity. Example: in Isreal most citizens, those that have been to the Isreally army, are allowed to have personal weaponry becouse the idea of militia is not a dead idea, at least there. I'm not saying that uzies sould in anyway be legalized, just that stricter laws should be put of weaponry storage and containmet. As well as better background inquries. In the US, the constitution will always be used as a reason for personal ownership of a gun, I say make getting the gun harder, and more complicated. Most of the school shootings were comited becouse a student got a hold of a gun (perent's fault for letting them have a way to get them) and used that gun to "express" a feeling toward the school. I think that in those cases, where an underage student got a hold of the gun, the parents should be put on trial as the killers as well as the student/kid responsible. If such a thing whould happen, parents would be more careful with their guns and such, and more alert to their childern's mood, friends, ect. guns are only the meathod, the true problem is much deaper... -------------------- click: Necromanser Title: Necromancer ^ is for Roh Zee Kat Posts: 86 | Registered: Wednesday, May 7 2003 07:00 |
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Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
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written Monday, May 19 2003 11:40
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If I remember correctly, in the UK you are legally required to lock up a gun somewhere secure when you are not using it. I don't think it's legal to carry a gun around with you all the time, but it is definitely not something that people (not even the police, in normal circumstances) do. Very few people own guns here, as far as I know, and I like it this way. -------------------- Grammar wenches beware: This is the house that the malt that the rat that the cat that the dog that the cow that the maiden that the man that the priest that the cock that the farmer kept waked married kissed milked tossed worried killed ate lay in. My Website BoA BetterEditor for MacOS X desperance.net - Leave your sanity at the door Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 341
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written Monday, May 19 2003 12:40
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In England its very rare to see guns as they are simply very difficult to procure. Legally I think it requires membership to a shooting club, and even then you require character witnesses etc. Police do not carry guns unless they are part of an armed response team, and even illegally its quite difficult to get hold of one. Gun realted crime is on the rise though, particularly in inner-city areas, but the law is very strict on the matter - one man was sentenced for shooting a burgular. And, like Khoth, I like it that way - when I go out and see a group of city youths in their hooded tops, I know that I need only fear being stabbed or beaten, not shot. And for that I am very thankful indeed. Firedrake, I think its wrong to assume that parents of such teenage killers know they ha\ve guns. Quite franklu the kind of person who would do a thing like that is so reclusive that their parents probably had no idea that there was even a problem, let alone so severe it would lead to killings. Sentencing parents is completely unjust, as even if the did let their child handle a gun that's no reason for said child to go onb a killing spree. -------------------- "This stolen joke proves I have a sense of humour!" "This tired old proverb proves I am profound" "This hyperlink to someone who doesn't know me proves I am popular!" Nothing like a bandwagon. Except maybe irony. Posts: 159 | Registered: Monday, December 3 2001 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 2956
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written Monday, May 19 2003 12:50
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my idea was simply sn answer as to how make parents who have guns, not leave then around but lock them up and keep them secure. -------------------- click: Necromanser Title: Necromancer ^ is for Roh Zee Kat Posts: 86 | Registered: Wednesday, May 7 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Tuesday, May 20 2003 05:57
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There is a total handgun ban in UK, even at gun clubs. When othr firearms are transported, the firing pin and ammunition have to be kept seperately. And it's locked cabinets otherwise. As I understand it, apart from upgrading replicas, the main source of firearms in UK is imports from the former Eastern Bloc. You'd laugh at what you can get through Customs here! Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 1823
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written Tuesday, May 20 2003 07:30
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quote: [ Tuesday, May 20, 2003 07:32: Message edited by: Jigga ] -------------------- Riot Shields Voodoo Economics It's just business Cattle prods And the IMF I trust I can rely on your vote Posts: 530 | Registered: Sunday, September 1 2002 07:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 147
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written Tuesday, May 20 2003 09:14
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Israel has lots of weaponry among the people because it's surrounded by neighbours who would rather Israel was not. It's a militia issue, similar to that of Switzerland. Guns have to be kept in a guncabinet, it's illegal to tell anyone the location of your key to it, you need a licence, a visit from a police officer or somebody working on contract to the police and a reason to own a gun. My grandfather is unlikely to get his gunlicence renewed as he's 83 and hasn't shot for a couple of years. Posts: 1000 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Tuesday, May 20 2003 12:48
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Also, every Israeli has undergone a term of required military service. This also ensures that they know how to use their guns. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Vahnatai Did Do It desperance.net - We're Everywhere The Arena - God Will Sort The Dead ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1359
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written Tuesday, May 20 2003 19:29
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quote:There would still be other things with which to cause terror. You couldn't get very far in highway construction without explosives. And without guns to stop them, anyone could just walk into a building and mine the place. They wouldn't even have to be suicide bombers. -------------------- 'The term Anarchy got bandied about a lot in the early 80's, perhaps having some amount of political or social meaning attached at the outset, but by the first couple of years, it simply became a synonym for "blow **** up".' --textfiles.com Posts: 1277 | Registered: Monday, June 24 2002 07:00 |
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Member # 165
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written Tuesday, May 20 2003 20:30
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quote:You know, until the 1930s, it was extremely uncommon in Great Britain for anyone, common criminals or otherwise, to have guns. So unlikely that, outside of a few areas, there were few police officers who considered carrying them necessary. You didn't exactly read about a lot of places being mined in Britain in the 1920s. Your situation is insane; it requires a LOT of concentration to properly mine a well-built structure, and that concentration would be just a little broken if you had people going after you with knives, or calling the police on you. -------------------- desperance -- je me souviens arena -- et je me souviens de vous Posts: 2449 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, May 20 2003 23:17
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Frankly, if they weren't so generally necessary in everyday life, I'd support a ban on knives and similar cutting implements too. It's already illegal to carry them in public over here. -------------------- I believe there are 15 747 724 136 275 002 577 105 653 961 181 555 468 044 717 914 527 116 709 366 231 425 076 185 631 031 296 protons in the universe, and the same number of electrons. -- Sir Arthur Eddington Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 147
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written Wednesday, May 21 2003 10:02
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It's still the same, Alec. The only time a police officer will have a gun is if he or she is a member of an armed response team involved in a hostage situation or something similar. Posts: 1000 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, May 21 2003 11:42
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Maybe if America didn't have gun-toting policemen there wouldn't be so much worry about police shooting innocent people. But then, if police in America didn't have firearms, most would be dead. ?Alorael, who actually thinks just making it harder to procure guns would drop the number of casually armed people, which in turn would make police less nervous and therefore less likely to shoot first and ask questions later. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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For Carnage, Apply Within
Member # 95
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written Wednesday, May 21 2003 13:27
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Almost every year in New York City, there's some major scandal involving nervous or trigger-happy white policemen shooting some innocent, unarmed person in a black or Hispanic neighborhood. Most policemen aren't like that, but given how little the police department seems to care, I have a hard trusting policemen with their guns any more than I would my neighbors. -------------------- It matters not whether you win or lose; what matters is whether I win or lose. Posts: 567 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00 |