10,000 BC [Spoilers]

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AuthorTopic: 10,000 BC [Spoilers]
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quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Originally written by Drew:

You know, the heroes probably wouldn't have seemed "less legitimate" if the hue of their skin were duskier.
I disagree. When was the last time a major motion picture even had a non-white main protagonist? The answer: never. You don't think directors take this into account when doing casting?

1. Beverly Hills Cop = Eddie Murphy = Black.

2. You seem to forget that the bad guys in these movies are also white, with the exception of 300, Jaws and Transformers.

Edit: And don't forget all those martial arts movies where Asians beat up on physically inferior blacks and whites. :D

[ Monday, March 10, 2008 16:25: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

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"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
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Johnny Depp is partially American Indian, Keanu Reeves is part Chinese and Hawaiian, and Will Smith pretty much means a guaranteed blockbuster. Lots of those films were based on special effects and advertising (LotR, Harry Potter, Spider Man, etc), not the attributes of the actors.

Race is probably more of a factor in smaller, independent, and art films, and not so much in blockbusters that are almost always going to do well no matter what.
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quote:
Originally written by Enraged Slith:

Does In the Heat of the Night count as a major motion picture?
Never heard of it. Checking out your link, the Oscar nominations impressed me, then I found out the best actor Oscar went to the white guy in the film.

LT: Eddie Murphy is also responsible for one of the biggest box office failures of all time. I'm surprised you, as a racist, failed to acknowledge this.

Higher Game: If these movies are going to be successful no matter what, why not throw some non-white leads in there? The answer is clear.

[ Monday, March 10, 2008 16:31: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ]

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Eddie Murphy also did the Donkey's voice in Shrek, and I'd say that film did ok. Also, Pluto Nash is unbelievably underrated. ;)

Emperor: That's my point. There are plenty of non-whites in the blockbusters. One thing you should notice is that a disproportionate number of the actors are actually British, who have a certain degree of natural talent. The thing is, most British people are white. ;)

[ Monday, March 10, 2008 16:39: Message edited by: Higher Game ]
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quote:
Originally written by Lepidus timidus:

So it is consistent with real life, especially in this day and age. I mean, how long has Europe been fighting off the scummy, barbaric, brutish hordes of Asia in order to prevent their women from being raped, their crops from being burnt, and their children from being sold as slaves? Probably millenia.

Oh, where to start... Yes, Europeans have been fighting with Asians for millenia. They've also been fighting Europeans for much the same reasons for a similar length of time. This makes a lot of sense, as Europe and Asia are one long landmass.

quote:
The Battle of Tours, Moorish conquest of Spain and Portugal, The Siege of Vienna, The Mongols, The Imperial Japs, the constant attacks on Israel, Muslim aggression during the Crusades, etc etc.

The Battle of Tours was indeed a case of Arab/Berber aggression, but political wars over land aren't really a barbarian problem (cf. the last two thousand some years of European history). The Moorish conquest of Iberia was a political struggle, the Visigoths were simply a previous dynasty of foreign invaders, and Christians were definitely the barbarians in Iberia. Vienna? Standard invasion. The Mongols? Imperial invaders. The Japanese? One extremely brief period of imperialism and centuries of isolation. The Middle East? A disaster, but it's because of mass displacement.

The Crusades don't fit here, as they were undeniably Christian incursions into non-Christian territory by definition. Here the Christians were the invaders, and the Crusades were also notable in their wholesale slaughter, pillaging, and other barbaric actions.

Now, let's compare white history. We've got constant warfare in Greece, Roman imperial expansion, Vikings, the succession from Picts to Anglo-Saxons to Normans in England, repeated clashes between England and France, and two World Wars, just to start. The Western world may be technologically and intellectually ascendant now, but that's a relatively recent development. Chinese, Indian, Arab, and other cultures have all had their contributions.

quote:
What I'm saying isn't 'racism', it's simple historical fact.
It's both racist and factually laughable.

quote:
Westerners have often need to take up the sword and bow against hordes of savages who have little concern for human life, and certainly don't 'play fair.'
Very often those savages are Westerners, you know. And how about the savages who have to take up arms against Europeans? Just because Europe was militarily advanced doesn't mean it was the good guys during the the establishment of African and American colonies.

quote:
Saladin was probably an exception to the rule (although his underlings were always baying to loot, rape and kill).
Saladin was fighting in territory in which the Crusaders really had no business. And they'd also made a name for themselves as butchers and barbarians.

—Alorael, who recommends reading good history, not white supremacist history. Largely, the story of history is a history of wars between everyone and everyone else. There are no good guys except very recently, and that's only because it's hard to look at yourself and say you're not the protagonist of history.

[ Monday, March 10, 2008 16:45: Message edited by: Is this the face of a meme? ]
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Meme, you're dead wrong about the Crusades. They started when the Muslims invaded the Holy Land, which belongs to Christianity. The West was just defending itself in those campaigns, and it's ironic that they're often pointed out as being purely about conquest. It's the complete opposite.

Spain and the Crusades were defensive campaigns, and really only the recent oil wars are the beginning of Western imperialism in that region since ancient times.

Slaughtering entire villages is standard practice in war, by the way, if you missed the memo. Hell, carpet bombing and even nuking entire cities was done just a generation ago, and was accepted as normal. If we ever have another major war, it will again be called normal. There were no "atrocities" the Crusaders committed that weren't also done by every other civilization on the planet, including the Muslims.
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quote:
Originally written by Higher Game:

There were no "atrocities" the Crusaders committed that weren't also done by every other civilization on the planet, including the Muslims.
The converse is also true.

[ Monday, March 10, 2008 17:10: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Originally written by Drew:

You know, the heroes probably wouldn't have seemed "less legitimate" if the hue of their skin were duskier.
I disagree. When was the last time a major motion picture even had a non-white main protagonist? The answer: never. You don't think directors take this into account when doing casting?

Shaft may not have been award winning, but it was a non-white hero and successful.
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You're both right about the Crusades. Muhammad and his descendants were indeed conquerors who took those lands and forced the residents to convert. The Crusades were started as a campaign to protect the right to pilgrimage, but since they were lead by ambitious individuals, they turned into bloody political conquests. Don't forget all the jews they managed to take out on their way to the holy land as well.

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quote:
Shaft may not have been award winning, but it was a non-white hero and successful.
Didn't Shaft start Blacksploitation?

quote:
You're both right about the Crusades. Muhammad and his descendants were indeed conquerors who took those lands and forced the residents to convert. The Crusades were started as a campaign to protect the right to pilgrimage, but since they were lead by ambitious individuals, they turned into bloody political conquests. Don't forget all the jews they managed to take out on their way to the holy land as well.

Apparently, they ransacked all the Christian towns they stayed in too.

[ Monday, March 10, 2008 17:14: Message edited by: Enraged Slith ]

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Those barbarians!

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quote:
Originally written by Enraged Slith:

quote:
Shaft may not have been award winning, but it was a non-white hero and successful.
Didn't Shaft start Blacksploitation?

It was the most famous and they remade it as part of the second wave.

quote:
Originally written by Enraged Slith:

quote:
You're both right about the Crusades. Muhammad and his descendants were indeed conquerors who took those lands and forced the residents to convert. The Crusades were started as a campaign to protect the right to pilgrimage, but since they were lead by ambitious individuals, they turned into bloody political conquests. Don't forget all the jews they managed to take out on their way to the holy land as well.

Apparently, they ransacked all the Christian towns they stayed in too.

It depends upon which Crusade. While most were directed against regaining the Holy Land, they also included attacks against the Eastern Church at Byzantium. Rome decided to get back at all it's rivals.
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quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Originally written by Drew:

You know, the heroes probably wouldn't have seemed "less legitimate" if the hue of their skin were duskier.
I disagree. When was the last time a major motion picture even had a non-white main protagonist? The answer: never. You don't think directors take this into account when doing casting?

Hmm. How about Bad Boys, Bad Boys II, Ali, any Will Smith flick, the 13th Warrior, the Rush Hour trilogy, etc., etc. You're really not trying.
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The outline of the plot provided is similar to any stone age novel I've read, especially one called Song of the Axe. I'm wondering how much of this movie is original, as a result.

I honestly don't think Arabs or Asians are any more barbaric than Caucasians. Actually, Caucasians are more barbaric at a social level, but I think it's a bit silly though, to refer to a group of people by race. In fact, humans in general are barbaric. Most people don't care for human life on a large scale, and many ambitions are driven by greed and ego. We're violent, and we're figuratively ugly.

Edit: Heh, UBB hasn't recognized daylight savings time yet.

[ Monday, March 10, 2008 19:32: Message edited by: Excalibur ]

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Emperor:
quote:

LT: Eddie Murphy is also responsible for one of the biggest box office failures of all time. I'm surprised you, as a racist, failed to acknowledge this.

Oh, I'm sorry. I merely looked at that list of box office hits you provided when you asserted that there were no black protaganists and noticed Beverly Hills Cop (II). I thought that might be a relevant observation, but apparently your idiotic observation that Eddie Murphy has been in flop movies is apparently more relevant despite the fact that many famous white actors have also participated in movies that were dismal failures.

Never mind. I bow to your genius.

Your claim that I'm a racist is a personal attack. I know I'm pointing out the obvious, but if a moderator comes blundering in to ban me for 'racism', I at least expect the rules to be enforced consistently.

Meme:
quote:

Oh, where to start... Yes, Europeans have been fighting with Asians for millenia. They've also been fighting Europeans for much the same reasons for a similar length of time. This makes a lot of sense, as Europe and Asia are one long landmass.

Europeans have been fighting Europeans? Really?

I'm sorry, meme, but that's the sort of point I'd expect someone with Down Syndrome to make. So obvious and accepted as common fact that it doesn't really need to be stated.

The fact remains that many times in the past, ravaging invaders from the Middle East and Asia, who are often less progressive culturally and have a strange fetish for decapitation, have crossed the continental borders to rape and pillage.

So movies such as 300 and 10,000 BC are quite accurate: There is a long history of conflict between Europe and Asia/Middle East, and these peoples were often savage and vicious (although sometimes military advanced, such as in the case of the Ottomans, Persians and brown people in 10,000 BC) and often grossly outnumbered whitey, who was fighting tooth and nail in the face of overwhleming odds to preserve life, land and liberty.

quote:

The Battle of Tours was indeed a case of Arab/Berber aggression,

So you agree that the Battle of Tours was a case of Arab/Berber aggression? It's nice to know that we both acknowledge that the Arabs/Berbers were the ravaging invaders.

quote:

The Moorish conquest of Iberia was a political struggle

So you admit that the Moors conquered Iberia? Excellent. Another case of Muslim aggression.

quote:

Vienna? Standard invasion.

By standard invasion, you mean a long history of conflict between the Ottomans and south/central Europe? But again, we are in agreement. Ottoman (Turkish Muslim) aggression.

quote:

The Crusades don't fit here, as they were undeniably Christian incursions into non-Christian territory by definition

False. The Crusades were initated in response to Muslim aggression. Ya know, the Muslim aggression which resulted in the conquest of approximately 2/3's of Christian land and the reduction of the Christian population by 50%? The ethnic cleansing in Sicily? The fall of Byzantium (now known as Istanbul... I wonder why?) The continued raids against Christian lands, where Christians would be forcibly converted/enslaved/killed? The imposition of dhimmitude on native non-Muslims?

This isn't to say that the Crusaders were little angels, but to portray them as the aggressors is historical revisionism. A rather racist and politically correct revisionism, at that.

quote:

Now, let's compare white history. We've got constant warfare in Greece, Roman imperial expansion, Vikings, the succession from Picts to Anglo-Saxons to Normans in England, repeated clashes between England and France, and two World Wars, just to start.

O RLY?

A few points:

1. Up until the last few centuries, white nations were often the underdogs while being ravaged by their less civilized neighbours. Up until the colonial era, whitey wasn't really capable of taking on the Ottomans, the Mongols, the Chinese, the Japanese, the Arabs, hell... pretty much anyone outside of Europe.

So when a movie portrays white civilizations as the underdog struggling bravely against numerically superior hordes of mad brown people baying for blood, it is actually quite accurate.

2. Even during the colonial period, the white nations who engaged in colonialism proceeded in their conquests in a much more civilized and fair-handed manner than non-whites had against whites.

There are exceptions to this rule, such as King Leopold II in the Congo, yet there was such outrage by the European nations at his atrocities that eventually he was forced to surrender his territory. In fact, that's a common theme in the West. When imperialistic governments are caught abusing their protectorates, the citizens of the conquering nation often protest for fairer treatment of the 'natives'.

When have the natives of conquering Eastern countries protested against the poor treatment of conquered non-Easterners (or even conquered Easterners! Witness Chinese conquest in Tibet and Vietnam.)?

3. There are numerous movies and computer games which aren't hesistant to broach the subject of white vs. white warfare, and also aren't ashamed to portray one particular race/country in a negative light. Just off the top of my head, there must be literally hundreds of movies and computer games regarding World War II, yet I've yet to hear any whining of racism for portraying the Germans in a negative light during that time period. Especially when the movie adopts a Jewish/French/Slavic viewpoint (witness Casablanca and Uprising). There are also bucketloads of games regarding white on white warfare (Rome: Total War and Pirates [where Spain is portrayed in a negative fashion], for example)

Yet if anyone dares suggest that perhaps at one period in history, the brown people were savage pillaging invaders, everyone cries foul. Go figure.

quote:

Just because Europe was militarily advanced doesn't mean it was the good guys during the the establishment of African and American colonies.

Military advancement =/= civilized, and I never asserted otherwise. By savage, I meant less progressive in a cultural sense. WWII Germany was much more savage then its neighbours, such as Poland and the French.

[ Tuesday, March 11, 2008 02:40: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
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quote:
Drew:
Hmm. How about Bad Boys, Bad Boys II, Ali, any Will Smith flick, the 13th Warrior, the Rush Hour trilogy, etc., etc. You're really not trying.
None of those movies are on the list I provided. Nor have they won any awards or recognition. Nor are they even cult classics or anything like that. You're not even trying!
quote:
LT:
Also, your claim that I'm a racist is a personal attack. I know I'm pointing out the obvious, but if a moderator comes blundering in to ban me for 'racism', I at least expect the rules to be enforced consistently.
Not only have the mods never been fair, but considering the fact that the mod agrees that you are a racist, I severely doubt that. Racist.

[ Monday, March 10, 2008 21:25: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ]

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For whatever it's worth, LT, you're repugnant.

And as an aside, the three major players on the underdog side in the movie were not stereotypical whiteys. Camilla Belle is 50% Brazilian, a country renowned for not being white. Cliff Curtis is a New Zealander, which is much the same as a Maori cannibal, but with less salt. And Steven Strait, the "boy," was born in Greenwich Village. May God have mercy on his soul.

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quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

[QB]For whatever it's worth, LT, you're repugnant.

The truth often is. It's hardly my fault that Eastern culture is inferior to that of the West.

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"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Not only have the mods never been fair,

Maybe they are from the Middle-East, and we are the dhimmis?

quote:

but considering the fact that the mod agrees that you are a racist, I severely doubt that. Racist.

I'm no racist. I detest Eastern culture, and its blatant disregard for human (and animal) life and liberty. The fact that those of Eastern culture overwhelming tend to be non-whites is coincidental.

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"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

I'm no racist. I detest Eastern culture, and its blatant disregard for human (and animal) life and liberty. The fact that those of Eastern culture overwhelming tend to be non-whites is coincidental.
Please, by all means, tell us more about how there is only one "Eastern culture" and everyone from the "East" believes and acts in the same ways.

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quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

I'm no racist. I detest Eastern culture, and its blatant disregard for human (and animal) life and liberty. The fact that those of Eastern culture overwhelming tend to be non-whites is coincidental.
Please, by all means, tell us more about how there is only one "Eastern culture" and everyone from the "East" believes and acts in the same ways.

I never said that Eastern culture was homogenous...

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
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quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

I never said that Eastern culture was homogenous...
No, but you did compare the reasoning power of Alorael to that of a person with Down's Syndrome. Now, before I can agree, I would like to hear more of your assessment, particularly how you are so intimately familiar with both Alorael, and this mysterious acquaintance with Down's.

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Eastern Culture is mostly defined by Indian religion, while the West is Abrahamic. Both have some horrible aspects to them. For example, in the East, you have Hindu extremists like the Tamil Tigers, while the West has Muslims. Both groups, despite different backgrounds and cultures, absolutely love suicide bombings and other reprehensible tactics.

Eastern culture doesn't even mean non-white or non-Christian, either. Just take Russia for example. It's simply a distinction of different value systems, and it's obvious which one is the more civilized.

It's worth mentioning that Japan and Korea are Westernized at this point, and China and India are coming along nicely, as well. Hell, the Caucasian Middle East is probably the MOST resistant to progress, ironically...
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quote:
Originally written by Higher Game:

while the West has Muslims.
Yeah, cause all Muslims are violent. My organic chemistry TA tried to kill me on several occasions last semester.

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quote:
Originally written by Andraste:

quote:
Originally written by Higher Game:

while the West has Muslims.
Yeah, cause all Muslims are violent. My organic chemistry TA tried to kiss me on several occasions last semester.

the letter "l" is not the same as the letter "s".

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