Protesting (In General)

Pages

AuthorTopic: Protesting (In General)
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #25
I kinda like this protest sign. Prolly seen at a pro-choice rally.

IMAGE(http://photos2.flickr.com/3606115_319e97d76d.jpg)

--------------------
Synergy, et al - "I don't get it."

Thralni - "a lot of people are ... too weird to be trusted"
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #26
In the spring of my senior year of high school, there were a lot of protests organized by a section of the MLK Association and Student Council protesting a variety of things, including racially insensitive comments from our (white) principal (in our 60% black high school), the short shrift given to the black history month assembly, the lack of teacher contracts, and the lack of communication and trust between teachers, students, and the administration.

It culminated in a 500-person (of 2000) walkout and protest joined by many teachers and security guards, and it resulted in our principal taking an extended leave of absence during spring break and not returning to school, ever.

--------------------
"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
====
Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy
Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet
====
You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse!
Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Agent
Member # 8030
Profile Homepage #27
- Running away from a boarding school? I don't blame him/her
- Too often do adolescents fail to see the other side of the argument. Firewalls are integral in a school district, as it prevents criminals from accessing files about our identity.
- In most establishments of education, I would be against access to Myspace. I personally don't like the website, but I disagree with the institution banning recreational outlets. It certainly should not be accessed during school hours.

--------------------
"On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and the tossing of the sea" Luke 21:25
Posts: 1384 | Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7331
Profile Homepage #28
quote:
Originally written by Drakefyre:

It culminated in a 500-person (of 2000) walkout and protest joined by many teachers and security guards, and it resulted in our principal taking an extended leave of absence during spring break and not returning to school, ever.
Fascinating. Good on ya, I probably would have done something completely wrong, knowing me. Along the lines of personally humiliating the principal.

--------------------
The Survival Elite
Posts: 794 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 9887
Profile #29
Alright, I finally got a hold of the main arguement held by the protesters.

For the past few years, students and staff have seen the school
policies head down an extremely conservative path that has restricted
student rights and caused student grievances to be ignored or
diverted. While we can't speak for the entire community, we can speak
for ourselves and in part for those who supported us today. Since the
start of a new year at the ******* school, a sweeping change has
occurred in school policies, staffing, and attitude towards the
community that is contrary to the student body's beliefs. These shifts
in policies have crippled student speech, the social environment, and
the freedom of students. Students have the right to be treated with
respect, be given the opportunity to learn from their mistakes, and be
able to trust in the confidentiality of the conversations they have
with school counselors. The mounting pressure between the students and
the new policies hit a tipping point the night before, when a student
stood up for his rights and inspired others to do the same. While a
sit-in was not our first choice of action, all of the other avenues
for airing our grievances had been exhausted and further work within
those channels would not have accomplished anything.

Students love and respect a school whose views are in line with
theirs, many of us are here for that reason: because ****** (the school) believes
in a different style of educational learning that promotes and fosters
true growth. This growth is not only evident in academic arenas, but
also in individual and social well-being. We love this school because
of what it offers us and because the facilitators in this community
sincerely care about us as individuals. Even though we have
disagreements regarding rules and policies, we have always respected
the work of those who keep us in line and force us to grow. The people
who work at this school comprise a family of which we can be proud and
supported by. Because we see *****(the school) as this amazing place where
anything is possible, we are concerned about the direction the school
is heading in.

We had a lot of issues to bring to the table, many of which should
have been fixed a long time ago. We assembled a list of the six things
that we thought needed to be changed first. We all went back to class
except for *****, *****, ******, ********, and ******* who had
been elected by the group to speak with Mr. ******(Res-life director). They met with Mr.
******(Res life Director) at 11:45 and were alloted 10 minutes to present their points
and discuss them. When Mr. *******(Res-life director) looked at the list he got upset with
the students and started shouting at them while they peaceably tried
to engage him in a rational discussion. At no point did the students
raise their voices or get upset (I think this may have been said to make them looks good). Once things had calmed down, Mr.
******(REs-life Director) agreed to have a meeting with Mr. ***** (President of the
School) and have the students attend. Mr. *****(Res-life director) also said that all
the absences would remain unexcused and that those students who
participated would have a study hall during the Thursday field trip.
As of fifth period, all of the students had returned to their
regularly scheduled classes. On Wednesday, the policy was changed and
only those students who left before the Spanish presentation had to
attend the additional study hall.

We did not want to miss the Spanish presentations and many of the
people attending the sit-in did in fact wait for the presentation to
be over. We had planned earlier to make the walkout during Tuesday's
quiet period and we believed it was our only opportunity. People were
excited to stand up for their rights and take action against the
mistreatment that had been feeling and much of that enthusiasm could
have been lost. We created a new forum for speech that needed to
exist. Because the school administration knew of our plans, we were
concerned that they would prematurely end quiet period directly after
the presentation in order to avoid the walkout. For that reason, it
was spontaneously decided that it would occur then and students
demonstrated by standing up that they supported that decision. When we
left, everybody who left with us did it voluntarily. If people felt
pressured by their peers, that should be considered positive peer
pressure because they were encouraged to use this rare opportunity to
speak and be heard. Some staff members had talked to students during
quiet period before the walkout and told them there would be
consequences. No statements of that nature were made by us. It is
unfortunate that we had to miss the Spanish presentation and the two
periods before lunch but as we have stated before, we had exhausted
all other possibilities. We did not leave to disrespect the teachers
or administration, but to make sure that our voices would be heard. It
is unfortunate that the climate forced us speak in this way and
hopefully in the future, things will be handled differently.

Afterwards, there were a lot of questions from students, staff, and
the press as to what exactly we wanted. We have issued this statement
to help resolve some misconceptions about what happened. We wrote down
the top six issues we want fixed and they are as follows:

1.Going into *******(the local town) without *********(having a 3.5 GPA or better) on Weekdays– The school is
taking away a privilege. One of the things that makes this school so
great it that it causes students to grow and in order to grow we must
be able to make our mistakes and learn from them. The new set of
policies don't even give students that chance. Students should be
given privileges and have them revoked if they make mistakes instead
of making them earn those privileges. Students also need an
opportunity to get groceries and supplies for the week that they can't
get at the school store. This new rule represents the direction that
the school's policies are taking.
2.Web Filtering Needs to be Fixed – Around third quarter last year a
critical change was made in the school web filtering policies. The
school moved from a blacklisting system to a whitelisting system. In a
blacklist, the filter blocks every site that is has been rated
inappropriate whereas in a whitelisting system every single site that
hasn't been reviewed and deemed appropriate is blocked. The
whitelisting system is used during the academic day (from quiet period
until after sports) and has caused problems with the college
applications for seniors. When a site is blocked, students can click a
link to have the site reviewed however many times upon clicking it
they are told that they have exceeded their "daily limit" for
submitting sites. The whitelisting system is defective by design
because by design it blocks the majority of the internet. Students
also want MySpace and Facebook to be unblocked during free time. While
it is true that social networking sites can be used to harass and
intimidate people, so can email, message boards, the United States
Postal System, and verbal communication to name a few. There is no
difference between sending a message over Facebook and sending one
through email. This issue has been brought to Mr. Begg and Mr. Friley
on innumerable occasions.
3.Vitamins Should be Allowed in Rooms – In order for any type of
medication to be in a student's room, the student needs to obtain
approval from the school nurse. Many students have already obtained
permission for medications like Tums and vitamins but requiring them
to obtain permission is an unnecessary restriction on their freedoms
and a hassle. Vitamins have no recreational use and many parents of
the students don't have issues with having vitamins in the dorms. This
issue has been brought to Mr. *******(Res-life director), Mr. *******(ranking administrator), and Mr.
*******(the nurse)'s attention multiple times.
4.Students want the internet to work for more hours – Many times
students work late into the night on projects and the internet shuts
off at eleven which many times makes it difficult for them to finish.
If the internet were turned on again at 5:00 as opposed to 7:00 then
those projects could be better completed. Furthermore, the internet
should not shut off before twelve because lights out is not until
then. There is no reason not to turn on internet two hours early as
long as students are using it responsibly.
5.Maintenance requests should be filled – There are a number of
maintenance requests that haven't been filled. Some of these represent
a risk to student health and safety. In ********(the girls dorm), there are rodent
and heater problems. In *******(the largest boys dorm), the lint filter is broken(in the public washer/dryer) as well as
some doors that will not open properly because of lock or hinge
problems, both of which are fire hazards. There is also a problem with
fruit flies in the dorms and cafeteria. This issues have been brought
to Mr. ******(Res-life Director), Mr. ******(the president), and Mr. ********(ranking administrator) on multiple occasions.
While some problems have been worked on, they are not solved.
6.Academic Freedom – The decisions to take and drop classes should
rest with the student. Many students have asked to drop the ****(learning help)
program and have not been allowed to do so. In one case, a student is
not be able to graduate on time because ****(learning help) took up a class slot that
could have been filled with the final science credit. This issue has
been brought up by individuals to Mr. *******(academic director), Mr. ******(res-life director) and Mr.
******(learning help coordinator). Furthermore, this issue was brought to Mr. *******(academic director) when the
senior girls met with him. The academic future of students should be
their decision especially when the schools actions stop them from
having the one they want. Decisions like this can affect college
applications in a seriously detrimental way.

All of the things on that list were presented during the ten minute
meeting with Mr. ******(res-life director) and every single thing had been brought up
multiple times to the appropriate staff and brought through the
official channels. One thing that we had intended to include on this
list that got lost in all of the commotion was that students need to
have confidentiality with school counselors. Multiple students leveled
serious accusations against Mr. ***** and ********(counselors) for breaking
confidentiality, failing to inform students about confidentiality, and
misrepresenting confidentiality. While it is true that counselors have
a legal obligation to act when they are told plans by a person to harm
others or themselves, this is a completely separate situation. As
counselors they have a legal and moral obligation to keep
confidentiality and many students do not feel that they are fulfilling
them. Unfortunately, no or very little action was taken on these
issues. Because these issues are important to us and some of them
represent a risk to personal safety we believe it is critical that
they are addressed in a timely fashion. As we have said since the
beginning, a walk-out was not our first choice for airing our
grievances but when they were repeatedly ignored we were left with no
other choice than to make sure our voices could not be ignored.
Hopefully in the next meeting with Mr. ******(the president) they will have heard our
grievances and act on the things we have been requesting of them for
almost a year. We love ********(the school) and the people who make it the special
place that it is and that's why we did this. We did this because we
are fighting to maintain the great community that gives us an
opportunity to grow and we did this to foster an open discussion about
the problems that lead to the walk-out. We are all at *********(the school) for
different reasons, but not a single one of us would choose to leave
because of the great value it holds to all of us.

They do have some important points, but the funny thing is that they said that they had exhausted all avenues open to them, but I and several other people I asked have/had not been asked to sign any petitions, which supposedly they tried. Input?

--------------------
Let's all just shape gazers and hope it goes away.

I make guacamole at work
Posts: 454 | Registered: Monday, August 20 2007 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 10578
Profile Homepage #30
I think it's very well done, personally. I don't see any of those as unreasonable requests (although some are more important than others).

Regarding the internet firewall, I think the administrators should start with a good filter to automatically block bad sites (it wouldn't be perfect, but it's a step in the right direction), and then keep tabs on what sites the students go to. Then they could raise the security level if students abused the privilege.

--------------------
"We were meant to live for so much more. Have we lost ourselves?" - Switchfoot
----
My poetry
Posts: 432 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2007 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 9887
Profile #31
Does anyone besides me think that them complaining about fruit flies is rather entertaining? Though they have the possibliity as a health hazard, they don't bite, or do anything harmful, except maybe eat sugary substances. The only way to get rid of fruit flies is to get rid of sugary substances, and I think that in a dorm people would much rather have fruint flies than not have sugary substances.

--------------------
The best way to spell Geneforge: "Genefroge"

I make guacamole at work
Posts: 454 | Registered: Monday, August 20 2007 07:00
Agent
Member # 8030
Profile Homepage #32
Fruit flies and gnats have a knack for penetrating the comfortable state of your eye. They are also cause quite a disturbance when they constantly irk people with their aimless foraging.

I wish the subject would have been elaborated earlier, since I concluded the ordeals of the situation at hand with uninformed perception.

--------------------
"On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and the tossing of the sea" Luke 21:25
Posts: 1384 | Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 9887
Profile #33
Sorry, I just got a copy of this letter today. The protesters didn't actually create this letter until a few days after the protest because people didn't know what the issues were. The leader of the protest and I are not on extremely good terms, so I didn't get this until one of my friends forwarded it to me.

--------------------
The best way to spell Geneforge: "Genefroge"

I make guacamole at work
Posts: 454 | Registered: Monday, August 20 2007 07:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #34
None of this is new.

--------------------
Synergy, et al - "I don't get it."

Thralni - "a lot of people are ... too weird to be trusted"
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #35
If things are so bad, then the students should get try organizing their parents to complain. The school will listen to the people who are footing the bill.

Personally, I don't feel that most of those grievances are that serious. Sure, they say that they want more internet access for the sake of doing school work, but you and I know that isn't the case. The vitamin complaint is also a bit bizarre.

Ultimately, privileges are just those - privileges, not rights. I'm pretty certain the school is structured the way it is to foster a particular learning environment and experience. It seems a bit draconian, but then, I don't know that I've ever met a teenager who has been happy with the way things are at his school (I know I wasn't, and I had very few grounds for complaint). If they really don't like it there, they can always petition their parents to let them go to public school, but I tell you what: the grass is rarely ever greener on the other side. At least in public school, though, your Consitutional rights (such as they are) are a bit more protected by the old 14th Amendment.

--------------------
In today’s America, there are more World of Warcraft players than farmers.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #36
While I applaud the students involved for having the initiative and the gumption to take on their school -- I also think the list of complaints is ridiculous. The "consent needed for vitamins" complaint in particular sounds so absurd that it makes me question the entire argument.

"No internet after 11," while perhaps unnecessary, isn't any different from rules that plenty of parents might make at home.

Maintenance requests aren't filled promptly -- gosh, welcome to the world.

The internet whitelisting sounds extremely stupid, but it isn't a violation of anybody's rights.

It sounds like the real problem is not the policies themselves, but how they are being presented. It sounds like there is no forum for discussion, and no way for the students to have contribute input to the decision-makers.

That particularly applies to the confidentiality complaint. If students are falsely told visits are confidential, that's a pretty big deal -- and I would recommend filing a complaint with the appropriate licensing agencies for the counselors involved. However, it sounds like there may simply have been a lack of communication.

--------------------
Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
"Making poorly-sourced claims is not the same as determining something."
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #37
The school may be located in a state where licensed counselors are required by law to divulge those parts of confidential conversations where the patient reveals certain things. Intent to commit harm, intent to commit a crime, and other things have been deemed as such by different states. The parents likely signed a waiver that would permit the counselor to talk with school administration under certain guidelines.

--------------------
Synergy, et al - "I don't get it."

Thralni - "a lot of people are ... too weird to be trusted"
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #38
This is an standard pair of constraints for pretty much anyone who provides counseling. On the one hand, the client should always have confidentiality, for a host of ethical and clinical reasons. On the other hand, some rare pieces of information fall into the category of "mandatory reporting" for other ethical and clinical reasons.

Generally speaking, mandatory reporting covers intent to harm oneself or another, and child abuse. It does not normally apply to confessions of other crimes or to, say, breaking school rules. It's perfectly reasonable -- and typical -- for a school counselor to expand the scope of what he reports to include those things (or to be required to by the school).

I work in a parallel situation. My colleagues and I form a clinical treatment team, and it is explicitly stated that while the agency as a whole has strict confidentiality, there is zero confidentiality among staff; if I hear something of therapeutic relevance, I tell my colleagues.

Key words above: "explicitly stated." It would be unethical for me to listen to something a client expected to remain confidential without first stating the boundaries of confidentiality. And the fact is that when they are explicitly defined, complaints rarely surface. Everyone's on the same page and clients know what will happen as a result of what they say.

So if there are multiple complaints regarding confidentiality, chances are, it isn't being properly explained.

--------------------
Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
"Making poorly-sourced claims is not the same as determining something."
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
Profile Homepage #39
I am not going to snip quotes out of that monstrosity, so just a few comments:

- The complaint about being punished for skipping class to protest.
This reminds me of some "professional protesters" from Berkeley, who disrupted classes, fought with police, and then held huge protest rallies after some of them got arrested. (What's even worse is that the campus and police authorities gave in and dropped almost all charges.) The whole point of "civil disobedience" is that you take the punishment for breaking unjust laws to show people your determination and the power of your cause. If you are just going to cut class to hang out with your friends shouting some slogans, that's not "civil disobedience". It's "slacking off". If those Berkeley students dusrupted classes and fought with police, and expected not to get arrested, that's not civil disobedience. It's huliganism.

- The complaint about internet filter.
As their complaint says, the filter is in whitelist-only mode only during "academic hours". What are they doing online at that time anyway?

- The complaint about vitamins.
They say that everybody had their medications and vitamins approved already, so what's the problem? The school probably just doesn't want to get sued if somebody eats something they shouldn't have. If anything, blame our litigious society.

- Maintanance problems.
As everybody else said, "welcome to the real world".

- Complaint about Internet cut off time.
Perhaps they should learn to budget their time better and not put off projects until the night before they are due. That would be a useful lesson to learn for life in general.

So overall, looks like one of those "we protest because that's what all the cool kids do" kinds of protests to me.

--------------------
Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword,
For it too has the power to kill.
However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword,
Can also have the power to heal.
Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 9887
Profile #40
I think that the whitelist blocking system would make a lot more sense if it was based in the school, not from a large company or whatever.

--------------------
The best way to spell Geneforge: "Genefroge"

I make guacamole at work
Posts: 454 | Registered: Monday, August 20 2007 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 10578
Profile Homepage #41
quote:
Originally written by Drew:

I don't know that I've ever met a teenager who has been happy with the way things are at his school
That would be me. :D

--------------------
"We were meant to live for so much more. Have we lost ourselves?" - Switchfoot
----
My poetry
Posts: 432 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2007 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
Profile #42
quote:
Originally written by Zeviz:

I am not going to snip quotes out of that monstrosity, so just a few comments:

- The complaint about being punished for skipping class to protest.
This reminds me of some "professional protesters" from Berkeley, who disrupted classes, fought with police, and then held huge protest rallies after some of them got arrested. (What's even worse is that the campus and police authorities gave in and dropped almost all charges.) The whole point of "civil disobedience" is that you take the punishment for breaking unjust laws to show people your determination and the power of your cause. If you are just going to cut class to hang out with your friends shouting some slogans, that's not "civil disobedience". It's "slacking off". If those Berkeley students dusrupted classes and fought with police, and expected not to get arrested, that's not civil disobedience. It's huliganism.

I think protest is an admirable activity - probably the cornerstone of a functional democracy, and you see a lot more protest happen much more peaceably in democratic societies than authoritarian ones - and trying to clamp down on it and call doing it for a 'bad reason' 'hooliganism' is about the most fundamental move you could make towards fascism.

As a political scientist, I find suggesting that protesting is basically illegitimate and that participation (through protest or whatever) needs to be well-informed - otherwise, 'hooliganism' - to be harrowing, precisely because the simultaneous glory and squalor of democracy is the fact that any idiot can and should vote. You take that away, and you may or may not (usually not, if history is any judge) produce a more efficient system, but you will produce a more tyrannous one. It's usually a fairly short time between protest, disobedience and other 'illegitimate' outlets being deligitimized and stigmatized and 'legitimate' outlets getting thrown out as well. Yeah, I know some of these kids are protesting for no good reason, but then again, most school elections are popularity contests. It's a good thing for people to be used to the prerequisites of a republic, and one of those is protest.

quote:
- The complaint about internet filter.
As their complaint says, the filter is in whitelist-only mode only during "academic hours". What are they doing online at that time anyway?

Filling out college applications, according to the complaint. And chances are good 'academic hours' are the time in which everyone might or might not have class; you're looking at a situation in which for half of the average student's time off they've got access to a small list of mostly useless websites.

I think the complaint about the whitelist is perfectly legitimate, because whitelists are time-consuming and inefficient in large systems and oppressive and foul in small systems. Considering the size of this school, chances are pretty good that information vectors that clash with the personal politics of the filter manager are gonna get filed away in 'we'll look into it' forever. (And myself, as much as I loathe cretins like the antigastarbite brigade, the Freepers, and what-not, I think denying someone the right to peruse their heinous shrieking bigotry would be close to criminal.) I personally wouldn't want a filter at all, but if you've got to have one it's really better to have one that targets known negatives.

There are so many ways a whitelist can be used inappropriately, and the only benefit of it hinges on the assumption that students of a college-prep school are shrinking violets who will be destroyed for life at the sight of a swear word, ethnic slur, or bare nipple.

quote:

- The complaint about vitamins.
They say that everybody had their medications and vitamins approved already, so what's the problem? The school probably just doesn't want to get sued if somebody eats something they shouldn't have. If anything, blame our litigious society.

I think 'litigious society' is based on a basically incorrect impression of what constitutes litigiousness and how far raw greed goes in the courts (hint: there are few states in this country where someone can sue the school district without a good reason and not face the county's legal chages), but I'll let that go for now. The thing is, there's a small list of over-the-counter drugs that can be used recreationally. Restricting those to nurse permission I can see. But forcing people to get say-so from the nurse for vitamins and prescription medication? I'm sorry, that's just oppressive. It's as oppressive and vicious as would be forcing the students to ask permission to eat. The only purpose it serves, alongside a lot of the other items here, is to incuclate obedience to authority. This is a college prep school, not a military academy; no matter how frustrating the disobedience of teenagers might be, that's the nature of the beast; unruly teenagers become decent adults, capable of obeying authority where necessary, disobeying it where necessary, and figuring out for themselves which is which (and that's one of those fundamental skills for democracy). Orderly, obedient teenagers tend to become obsessively submissive adults - because teenagers are abnormally disobedient as a rule, and responding to 'jump!' with 'which way?' as a teenager pretty much guarantees you won't be able to disobey a solitary command from someone with a loud voice as an adult. And unless one happens to be a career carrier of arms or fighter of fires, that's a horribly bad thing and needs to be avoided.

In short, this is basically metonymic for the whole issue here. The students are being jerked around by an administration that seeks to usurp any and all personal freedom they have; they're not just being regulated on reasonable things, like obviously unacceptable websites or abusable drugs, but on things so banal that the only reasonable conclusion is that it's a case of obedience for obedience's sake. This is, again, a college prep school. I can't think of a single thing worse for higher education than a mindset in which instinctive kowtowing to authority is necessary.

quote:
- Maintanance problems.
As everybody else said, "welcome to the real world".

Man, I've heard California's gone downhill under the Governator, but I had no idea that the police make you register vitamins you use with them or haul you into prison for peaceable assembly if it's not for a good reason.

In other words, either this argument works or your other ones don't; you can either leave the students to their own devices, within the normal constraints of law, or you can take an obessive, paternalistic interest in their day-to-day affairs and actually take care of their everyday needs as well.

We have a phrase for fathers who expect to be treated as absolute and unquestionable authority figures and yet who refuse to take care of their children's basic needs: 'deadbeat dad'. You can either be an oppressive, invasive disciplinarian or you can be a disinterested slacker, but you can't pick and choose from one or the other, and giving people all the negatives of both is just abusive. If the school cares enough about student welfare to force them to register vitamins, you'd think that an active rat problem would merit their attention.

quote:
- Complaint about Internet cut off time.
Perhaps they should learn to budget their time better and not put off projects until the night before they are due. That would be a useful lesson to learn for life in general.

Oh, Zeviz. Like you've never had a project big enough that it took you past midnight to do - or had more than one regular-sized project requiring you spend most of the night doing it.

There's already a lot of incentive not to put off projects to the last minute. For instance, there's the fact that generally doing that results in a better grade and is easier on you. The cutoff time is another arbitrary, paternalistic effort to force a certain lifestyle on the students - one, I will add, that is utterly inappropriate for college prep students (the only people I've ever known with 11:00 PM bedtimes are English grad students, and that's because their classes are in the early morning - and more often than not they go to sleep at 6PM and wake up at midnight.) - and it's not particularly defensible. If there's concerns about ability to manage student web use after the admin goes home, maybe then'd be an appropriate time for a whitelist. The long and short of it is that cutting off the Internet at 11:00 out of sheer cussedness is pointless, and you seem to like the idea for no better reason than that it's being used to oppress those stupid hooligans who grow up to protest things you don't mind at Berkeley. In reality, Zeviz, the hooligans aren't gonna be up past 11 doing homework - they're gonna crib from Wikipedia at 10:00, bang out something just sufficient to make a D, and then mess around. It's the good students who happen to (a) be night people, (b) have a different lifestyle or sense of time management than most of the campus, or (c) be prone to slacking - those are the ones who suffer here. Cutting their legs out from under 'em isn't going to help the slackers any more than would summarily kicking them out of school because they didn't turn in an assignment on time. And any which way, that's how you're expected to do things in college! Yeah, if this were a vocational school, that might make a sort of sense. But college isn't an office job; it doesn't have hours and priorities set in stone by all-powerful higher-ups. I don't know where on Earth you got the impression it was.

quote:
So overall, looks like one of those "we protest because that's what all the cool kids do" kinds of protests to me.
I think for some people, you're right. But come on; at least one of these is not only valid but hauntingly so, and the fact that it took protest to get it out in the open is horrific. The rat and vitamin things alone are just stupefying; the administration honestly feels it is entitled to screw around with students' day-to-day lives, and yet doesn't feel it incumbent to fix people's toilets or keep rats out of their dormitories? What on Earth is the huge concern about their finding a way to get high on multivitamins for when the risk of them getting the Goddamn hantavirus is above 0?

The only way that's anything less than shameful is if your basic attitude is 'Well, some people are in charge and some people aren't, and the people who aren't just need to get used to that'. That's not how society works; it's not how the college the students are being prepared for works. A society that worked that way would be fascist and a college that worked that way would be useless.

I don't understand why you're so ready to hurl contempt on students for peaceable protest (or, as you sweepingly refer to one of America's oldest legal institutions, 'civil disobedience') that you're utterly unconcerned about the students being restricted to dorms with a rat problem unless they make the Dean's List. I don't know what part of the 'real world' that is - Burma, maybe - but it certainly ain't here.
Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #43
quote:
Originally written by The Ratt:

I think that the whitelist blocking system would make a lot more sense if it was based in the school, not from a large company or whatever.
That may just be the way the software is licensed. Still though, I bet it is serving the school's purpose pretty well.

--------------------
In today’s America, there are more World of Warcraft players than farmers.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #44
Heh.

The reason to oppress the masses when it comes to storing vitamins or prescription drugs in a dorm room is that kids share medicine. Kids mix'n'match medicine looking for the high. Some kids will die doing that. It is much better to be oppressive than to send a kid home for winter break in a pine box.

--------------------
Synergy, et al - "I don't get it."

Thralni - "a lot of people are ... too weird to be trusted"
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
Profile #45
Well, I guess it just generally makes you a prick.

In the strictest sense of the word, yeah, you're right. But in general I've usually heard 'deadbeat' used to describe parents who insist they're Parents and have Rights but don't actually care about the associated duties. Like, you know, child support.

re. mix'n'match medication: I have to think that if they were less ruthless about forbidding things there'd be less compulsion to do that crap. I mean, I've never been compelled to huff glue.

[ Saturday, November 10, 2007 16:39: Message edited by: Najosz Thjsza Kjras ]
Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #46
quote:
Originally written by Najosz Thjsza Kjras:

I have to think that if they were less ruthless about forbidding things there'd be less compulsion to do that crap. I mean, I've never been compelled to huff glue.
I disagree. I don't believe that there is any evidence supporting your theory. In fact, anecdotally it seems that the less restrictive a society, the more permutations of behavior are seen. But you're right, it still doesn't mean that everyone acts on one end of the spectrum. But that doesn't prove anything about anyone's behavioral tendencies except for the study participant.

And big *hugs* Alec, you were missed. :)

--------------------
Synergy, et al - "I don't get it."

Thralni - "a lot of people are ... too weird to be trusted"
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
Profile #47
I do think it's worthy of note, and it's not something I had thought of until you brought it up, that 'deadbeat' has actually sort of shifted definitions; I've almost never heard it used to describe someone who simply up and abandons their family, but rather a sort of special cretin who wants to have the privileges and rights without the associated duties.

While more stuff might show up if society is less restrictive, I have to note that in my personal experience the people who have the most oppressive upbringings tend to be the most ready to jump into trouble once the oppression lays off a bit, and also the least capable of handling it. Generalizing that is problematic, and I'm certain there are studies to support both conclusions.

But to be fair, my conclusion is buoyed by the glue bit - drug-mixing is an atrocious, dangerous, and unreliable high. As Dolan said of James Frey while tearing him and A Million Little Pieces a new hole - when he included 'glue' cavalierly in a list of drugs he had ostensibly used, ripped from another, better book written by an actual addict who OD'd in a motel after a brief, rough life - certain drugs are vile poison which nobody with a whit of sense and/or access to anything even vaguely better would mess with. Hell, if they gave kids the privacy necessary to play the damn Choking Game chances are good they wouldn't be at risk for pill-mixing.

It is sort of a moot point, though - while I wouldn't support it in and of itself, I'd say centralized drug access would be far more effective and far less intrusive than just forcing people to get the school's say-so to take medication. As someone with chronic health problems, I can only imagine how degrading the latter would be. There are a lot of cretins out there who feel entitled to treat you like a drug addict because you have to carry around antibiotics and an inhaler - let alone anything even vaguely druggish like benadryl or sudafed - and for some reason, they seem to gravitate towards pedagogy.

And doubtless pederasty, but that's neither here nor there. I hope.
Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #48
Clearly, what Alec needs from us isn't exactly a hug. Wink wink, dearie. Now, where did Dareva go just when I needed her help...

--------------------
Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
"Making poorly-sourced claims is not the same as determining something."
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Agent
Member # 8030
Profile Homepage #49
quote:
And big *hugs* Alec, you were missed. ;)
Indeed
---
Sorry, Excalibur cannot come to the phone right now, but Excalipur will gladly answer it for you.

[ Saturday, November 10, 2007 23:23: Message edited by: Excalibur ]

--------------------
"On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and the tossing of the sea" Luke 21:25
Posts: 1384 | Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00

Pages