I Have A Beef With You All
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 20:35
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quote:You are accusing the other side of arrogantly thinking they know more. Your reasoning is that you know more. Um, can you see the irony here? Incidentally, your remark about "science majors" and "debate-team jocks" is pretty stupid. Not only is it needless invective, it's also clearly false. I took as few science classes as possible and hate public debate, and what's more, I work in the same field that you are studying. quote:Are you saying that your speech is "much more measured and thoughtful" than ours? -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 20:42
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Furthermore, I am neither a science major (unless you count political science, which you very seldom should) nor a debate-team jock (I debated for a year in high school) either. I think the only person he actually defamed with that was *i, who was more or less the most reasonable, well-learned man in the argument and who is, not coincidentally, a veteran policy debator (THOSE are the jocks; I just did a little LD and PF) and a grad student in nuclear physics. But invective is always fun. [ Thursday, December 14, 2006 20:43: Message edited by: Helena Blavatsky ] Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6700
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 20:42
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Robinator has a few valid points, even though I directly disagree with most if not all of his conclusions. If I had to draw one truth from Robinator's post that we might all agree on, it's that we really have had a noteworthy amount of topics locked recently. Granted, they haven't necessarily been locked without reason, but the fact remains. I personally wish that the mods would give a little more leaway (sp?... I've never had to spell that before...) to a handful of the "hopeless digression and devolution" topics, but, well, they're the mods and I'm not. If I had to draw a second truth, it would be that posting and topic creation are down. Tis true, we're slowly bouncing back from an all-time low. Why? Well, I'd like to conjecture that it's because we really haven't had much to talk about. It happens. I made a point to avoid Syn's topic. Generally, if one is not a partaker in the sub-topic that spawns the new topic, one finds it very difficult to catch up. And seeing as my undersanding of the workings of the universe is limited to sophomore-level physics and chemisty... I figured I'd just let the pros do their thing. Now then... I'm dating a future English teacher. Speak no L33t or n00bspeak to me. It hurts my brain. Newspeak is acceptable, however. I like the pseudo-academic atmosphere that proper English brings. Yes, we are gamers. But that doesn't mean that we can't be intellectuals or at the very least peers, whether we can stand each other and our (lack of) knowledge and understanding or not. I do wish that more people would post, simply because I enjoy the spread of opinion and information. These forums essentially partially make up for all of the intellectual stimualtion that I gave up upon graduating from my high school honors courses... and, well, becoming a storyteller instead of a chemist... quote:Quoted because it just seemed to need to be quoted. I can see it now: Alec vs. World. -------------------- The Silent Assassin has designed the better mousetrap. Unfortunately, it has proven quite the nuisance in the paws of our local squirrels. I'm keeping the cat indoors for now. -------------------- -Lenar Labs What's Your Destiny? Ushmushmeifa: Lenar's power is almighty and ineffable. All hail lord Noric, god of... well, something important, I'm sure. Posts: 735 | Registered: Monday, January 16 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 20:52
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quote:Place your bets now, ladies and gentlemen! Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 20:58
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I cannot bash you, Alec, just for being vituperative because beating around the bush never gets anyone anywhere quickly. I am not sure if the Hakkaa Paalle joke came across as one to you, though. Maybe it should have been in parenthesis, like this: (Why Hakkaa Paalle Alec, why?). Besides, aren't you a poor, sick, twisted, and mean individual? Also, I just don't get the Wikipedia editor thing. Are you not a fan of that project? Or do you just love me and my comedy that much? To be whiny, I must ask why this topic has not been locked when mine concerning Syngery's thread, whose intentions were made clear, was. I presume it's because we want to and should talk about this incident. I hope all that has needed to be said has been said now, though. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 21:08
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Basically my approach to locking things is when I make a judgment that further discussion on the topic will produce only destructive results. This can be the result of an extensive flame war that has got out of hand, or in the case of Synergy's topic, one where the primary person has decided to stop arguing and all future posts will only either rehash what has already been said or devolve into unresponded bashing. Further on the Synergy topic, I thought the debate was vigorous, but still not outside the normal bounds of what we have seen here. This is not to say I do not feel some of the posts were a bit out of hand, but I don't like having to kill a topic because of a small number of people said some things they should not have. As had been said, well educated people are not in short supply here. They tend to know things very well and I do not blame them for trying to correct misunderstandings in their disciplines. This helps the general reader who is not as informed and I do not consider this nitpicking. Incidentally, I don't think anyone said quantum mechanics (or the uncertainty principle) is proven, as it is impossible to do so. However, there is so much theoretical and experimental evidence for it that denying it, or its results, is as foolish as denying the existence of gravity. The uncertainty principle is really a poor example as it is well founded both theoretically and experimentally. Read up on Bell's inequality and the EPR Paradox for more information. What I just did was not nitpicky, but it served to correct a misunderstanding. While I didn't go into the arguments here, as is beyond the scope of this thread, I told you where to read up on things. As for chat speak and stuff, personally I'd prefer people to communicate with plain, vernacular English, as is the custom in this community. I do think here we tend to respect people more who can communicate well. I don't consider this to necessarily be a bad thing, as communities will inherently form their own identity. Either way, I don't lock/punish people for not writing in clean English. There are times where it goes overboard into incomprehensibility, I will ask them to do it as it is much easier to follow. As for the recent topic, it comes down to the same thing I said before, I felt, based on past exprience, it would only lead to a bunch of bashing which would lead to a locking. Perhaps it was an over-cynical lock, but either way, the result most likely would have been the same. EDIT: Why your topic was locked, Garrison, is that I didn't want the inevitable pile on when Synergy had indicated that the issue was dropped. Be that Synergy himself has now posted to discuss, that reason is now gone. [ Thursday, December 14, 2006 21:17: Message edited by: *i ] -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 21:16
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quote:I'm pretty sure you're thinking of me there. Alec's heart is at least in the right place; mine is in a little box at the bottom of the ocean. quote:Unless I am much mistaken, he was referring to your apparent obsession with consensus-building. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 21:22
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quote:Unfortunately, Dikiyoba has to place Dikiyoba's bet on the world. You will make the world nervous. You will make the world angry. You will change the world. But in the end, you will die, and that will be that. :P Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 21:31
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quote:And we're still guessing what you put in its place. :P -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 22:44
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My money is on a marvel of engineering composed of clockwork and chimeric muscles. The whole thing is powered by babies. I'll admit that when I'm debating my disinterest is questionable. Yes, I let ad hominem slip in because I was more interested in the real debate and Synergy seems capable of surviving it. Maybe I should have pointed it out, but I don't think you would have listened, Alec, and it would have just gotten in the way of the real issue. In the end, though, I don't really think what you said was out of line. It's not particularly nice and it is particularly Alec, neither of which are (yet) crimes. I just don't think they really helped further a debate. If you viewed Synergy's position as purely rhetorical, then rhetoric was called for. I think it's possible to have a real discussion with him about medicine without degenerating into a shouting match, which we really did. Skimming is a matter of opinion. He did pick and choose his points to dispute, but he also couldn't have actually read everything carefully. Having to field the barrage of words we put up would be difficult. And I think nobody disputes your points besides calling you mean because you make good points. I just don't see how they're strengthened by spite. If you took out the attacks, there would be no flimsy shield of ignoring you for being rude. —Alorael, whose complaint after the fact is that Synergy could somewhat reasonably bring forceful closure to the debate by claiming it wasn't civil anymore. If it had stayed civil it could have ended more satisfyingly. The erasures can be taken in good faith as matters stand, but there would be no excuse for them without the vitriol in the debate. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, December 15 2006 09:37
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I didn't find Garrison's locked topic until just now, and there was one thing that he said that bugs me, so I'd like to reply to it here. If that turns out to be ill-advised, I apologize in advance. quote:I think you've fundamentally misunderstood my position (and those of pretty much everybody else arguing with him). You've committed an error which is common, and that's why I want to explain it. You've assumed that, since I argued with Synergy, I disagreed with everything that he said. People make this assumption often, but it not only isn't true, but also indefensible. I took issue with some parts of what he said, not all of it. You've tried to boil down the argument to "alternative medicine vs. pharmaceuticals," with me squarely on the side of pharmaceuticals. That's not an accurate depiction of my position at all. Synergy's main point seemed to be that there are alternatives that traditional medical research is neglecting. My problem with that statement is not that there are alternatives, but that traditional medical research is neglecting them. I don't think that traditional medical research is entirely neglecting behavioral, emotional, dietary, and environmental factors in disease, and I don't think that alternative therapies, such as acupuncture, have gone unstudied. I'm not against alternative medicine when it can be demonstrated to provide benefits. I'm against saying that scientists are against alternative medicine even when it can be demonstrated to provide benefits. I'm not sure how arguing this could in any reasonable way be construed as "not giving Synergy's arguments and beliefs enough honest consideration," unless you paint me with so broad a brush as to say that I was against everything that Synergy was saying and not just some of it, and that's just not accurate. If you really think this, I strongly urge you to go back to that thread and re-read only my posts (and not anyone else's). You'll see that this is the consistent theme. [ Friday, December 15, 2006 13:09: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5410
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written Friday, December 15 2006 10:10
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Just read this thread, and I have a problem: Kelandon made this statement: quote:Based on this statement by Robinator: quote:I too interpreted that as calling me female. Nothing wrong with females (married one, have a daughter, apple of my eye and all that), but I AM NOT FEMALE. :mad: Kel, you are spot on. :) edit: Lenar labs, leaway (as you spelled it ) should really be leeway. ;) [ Friday, December 15, 2006 11:19: Message edited by: chasm of Sar ] -------------------- "Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things." "You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares." Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 34
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written Friday, December 15 2006 12:52
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quote:This is more-or-less exactly what I'm talking about. In a nutshell, all I have been arguing is that Spiderweb could do with being a little more open and tolerant. Evidently not everyone feels the same way. 'Unresponsive bashing' is probably a better term in this case than 'flame war'. To defend myself personally, I've never even looked at Polaris. Sorry about the confusion, Fatman. :o [ Friday, December 15, 2006 12:56: Message edited by: Robinator is a Beefcake ] -------------------- Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck. 'Spiderweb Software' anagrammmed: 'Word-bereft A**wipe' Posts: 702 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5410
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written Friday, December 15 2006 13:25
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Robinator: quote:Don't apologise. I laughed everytime I saw Kel respond with his "but I thought she is a he" tag. -------------------- "Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things." "You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares." Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Friday, December 15 2006 14:22
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Kelandon, honestly I am surprised you noticed that little sentence. I felt like you did something wrong, and yet I could not put my finger on it. Without that sentence, though, my comments toward you would not have been negative enough to express my "feelings." Do you think I misunderstood the positions of anyone else in that thread? If you find it inappropriate to discuss them here, PM me. Also, concerning my "apparent obsession with consensus-building" (or whatever Thuryl eloquently phrased), I always try to empathize with both sides before I take a stance. That quality tends to promote my perverted sociopathy unfortunately. [ Friday, December 15, 2006 14:23: Message edited by: Garrison ] -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, December 15 2006 15:22
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quote:Dude, I'm all for moderation. But it's like the Pope says; truth can't compromise with error. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, December 15 2006 15:37
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This thread is awesome. What a great way for people to show their true feelings towards one another. I can really feel the hate. It makes you all stronger! -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, December 15 2006 15:45
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Mmm. Perhaps after this we'll replace the Game Rating threads and Scenario Rating threads with User Rating threads. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, December 15 2006 15:49
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quote:I occasionally rant about people needing to read posts more closely. I try at least to practice what I preach. :P quote:I honestly don't know what you think I did wrong. Again, I urge you to go back to that thread and re-read my posts in isolation. I don't like it when people accuse me of wrongdoing, and I like it less when I'm innocent. :P quote:Probably, but I have a lot less personal stake in your representation of others' positions, so I haven't cared to investigate. quote:Quoted for brilliance. :P [ Friday, December 15, 2006 16:34: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Friday, December 15 2006 16:13
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By "probably" do you mean that you presume everything I write to be false until prove otherwise? :P My gut just didn't like you in that thread, Kel. If anything I think you guys forced Synergy to go deeper and deeper into his unconventional medicinal beliefs instead of just keeping him to his original argument. In fact, can you even articulate his original argument after all that clutter? If you can, my gut and I would think more graciously of you. [ Friday, December 15, 2006 16:14: Message edited by: Garrison ] -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Veteran*
Member # 5
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written Friday, December 15 2006 16:20
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So, how about them Cowboys!? Posts: 455 | Registered: Tuesday, May 17 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, December 15 2006 16:50
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quote:Our problem with him was precisely that we didn't think he could articulate his original argument. [ Friday, December 15, 2006 16:51: Message edited by: Perpetual Motion ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, December 15 2006 16:52
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quote:Probably. :P quote:Well, I try to avoid being viscerally repulsive when I can, but sometimes I fail. :P quote:If we eliminate all the clutter, I think what remains is his argument that I paraphrased above, that traditional-style medical research has avoided looking into the methods of alternative medicine, a statement which is not really true. The fact that he never actually came out and made this statement is evidence of Thuryl's point. He had several related points of varying validity, too, which confused the whole mess. [ Friday, December 15, 2006 16:53: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Friday, December 15 2006 17:12
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quote:I'm calling it as I see it. You blindly came to Synergy's defense, pretending that he's completely innocent in this, and insulted the rest of us in the process, and then laid the blame for both low board activity and Synergy taking a beating on us, including members that took no part in that debate. quote:This is the main problem with your argument. You've tunneled in on two or three cases out of over a thousand topics, and then selectively removed the parts that were inconvenient to your argument. Then you proclaimed it as fact, even though it was clearly an erroneous assumption. Furthermore, if you post your beliefs here, there's going to be someone who disagrees. Everyone has their own beliefs, and if someone comes along and proposes a different set of beliefs that challenge your own (or even if they don't), you have the right to speak up about it. It's happened to Tullegolar, me, Synergy, Garrison, Stew Boy, Delicious Vlish, you, so on and so forth. Are you saying that if someone posts some form of philosophy here, the rest of us have to shut up? Because it won't happen, and I wouldn't want it to happen either. And even if Synergy was guilt-free in this, your little escapade here basically shoved him right back into the line of fire! Instead of letting the topic rest, as it should have, you dredged it back up and further aggravated the parties involved in this travesty. That topic was locked for a reason, one which you casually ignored. EDIT: Thought of a little more that I wanted to say. [ Friday, December 15, 2006 17:55: Message edited by: Nioca ] -------------------- I tried to think of something witty to put here. Needless to say, I failed. Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Friday, December 15 2006 18:06
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Just like E. Coli., Kel, you are usually agreeable to the gastrointestinal system, but sometimes you become excessively riley, and then you have to be expelled. Explosively. And yes, I just compared you to a microorganism that often causes people vomiting and diarrhea. Synergy's first argument was that, despite the revolutionary revisions of the physical sciences due to quantum theory, the biological sciences have not undergone a a similarly massive change. Then he went on his diatribe against the drug companies, which he blamed for neglecting new approaches to medicine that would include some quantum theory style "energy." Then he tried to provide us with examples of neglected unconventional medicine that he claimed to be effective. I just do not think the first argument was ended with closure. Other than that, I recognize that Alec, Alorael, and others rightfully pointed out to Synergy that he was shifting and expanding his platform haphazardly. This incident bothered me more than an online debate should have because it seemed very hostile to people with different views. It raises the fundamental question of whether we have changes into something more sharp and scathing than fun. As I have stated elsewhere, I do not think this is the case. However, I doubt I would want to be a part of a community that rejects individual thought. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
