Are FRPGs inherently gerontocratic?
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Electric Sheep One
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written Friday, April 14 2006 03:45
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The existing similar thread invokes Tolkien, and after thinking about this, I decided that Tolkien really stood for something a bit different from the issue of conservatism versus revolution. After all, Mordor's existing social order gets about as much description as that of Gondor. And it's even more ancient. Tolkien seems to me to have equated ancientness not with moral good, since Sauron was an ancient in good standing, but with quality. All the really powerful things, people, or institutions in Tolkien's world are old —often absurdly so. And I think that this is also a typical pattern in RPGs. Ancient wizards, ancient artifacts, ancient demons: good or bad, if it's not ancient, it's crap. This hardly agrees with recent history. Ancient artifacts are cool paperweights, and that's about it. So why do people still like the premise that anything ancient could threaten, or save, the world? -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Friday, April 14 2006 04:44
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It does take responsibility neatly off our hands. It's not our fault that those inept demonologists failed to completely destroy some arch demon nine hundred ninety-nine and a half years ago, and instead only sealed him away for a thousand years. [ Saturday, April 15, 2006 12:08: Message edited by: Kuranes- ] -------------------- Encyclopaedia Ermariana • Forum Archives • Forum Statistics • RSS [Topic / Forum] My Blog • Polaris • I eat novels for breakfast. Polaris is dead, long live Polaris. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5969
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written Friday, April 14 2006 04:59
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The whole wisdom thing comes in. Tolkien's Elves, for example, are old and wise. (So is Gandalf, but he was probably born that way, being a Maia and all. Although he was probably *born* old.) Sauron is old, too, and the fact that he's been around for so long doing evil stuff makes the story an even bigger deal– this is going to be the climax of a good-vs.-evil struggle that's been going on for millennia. Having artifacts be really old adds to the atmosphere of the world because you can add in so much backstory– and you get the feeling that the main character of the story, or you if it's a game, is part of something huge, a saga of the ages… -------------------- A C, an E-flat, and a G walk into the Tower of the Magi. Ambrin walks up to them and says, "Hey! It's the Triad!" Kelner snorts and says, "Pretty minor Triad if you ask me." Posts: 242 | Registered: Thursday, June 16 2005 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Friday, April 14 2006 05:17
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Some fantasy novels that rely heavily on old, forgotten enemies and old, forgotten ways to deal with them have to do so because if were a current enemy, people would know how to deal with it and the plot wouldn't be nearly so desperate or exciting. As far as Tolkien goes, well, he was something of a historian, wasn't he? These topics are good for Dikiyoba. They give Dikiyoba ideas for what not to do when Dikiyoba writes. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Shake Before Using
Member # 75
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written Friday, April 14 2006 06:57
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Well, it works out that way for two reasons. One is only metaplotwise, for ancient artifacts. If it's the more modern-day creations that are of incredible power, they tend to lose their special quality. For people of great power, it makes a lot more sense. By and large, in fantasy stories and settings, people gain more power as the story goes along / as they level up / as they become older, due to having done the sorts of things that gain power for themselves. In reality, this also tends to be true, except that old age and infirmity will diminish and eventually stop this growth. A being of an indefinitely long lifespan in a fantasy setting, on the other hand, can continue to accrue power forever, making an ancient one almost by definition stronger than a recently-born or created one. Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, April 14 2006 07:41
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I'm not sure where the ancient, advanced, powerful, and ultimately vanished empire/kingdom/culture/race trope came from, but it's become ubiquitous in fantasy. Nobody is as powerful now as they used to be. Maybe it's an extension of Homeric "weak as men are now" old heroism, but it's odd. The other, somewhat related problem is timeline. Everything seems to last too long in fantasy. Everything has lasted for millenia. Not only does this become a problem of progress (where is it?), it's also one of events and memory. People are happy to talk about things that happened a thousand years ago like they were yesterday, which isn't like any human approach to history. There are also often long stretches in fantasy history of nothing happening, which is equally implausible. —Alorael, who gives Dennis McKiernan credit for one thing and one thing only. He may write the most unabashed plagiarisms of Tolkien on the market, but he at least addresses the immortality of the elves directly and well. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Friday, April 14 2006 09:25
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Well, but why do artifacts become less thrilling if they aren't ancient? I guess I agree that they do; the exact same item would be less cool as a recent discovery than as an ancient relic. Why, though? As to people, I didn't think of the idea that those ancient dudes have had time to work up to experience level 8000. But I'm not sure this works, since the ancient ones were generally already super-powerful back in their ancient heydays, and usually haven't been doing much of anything to increase their power over the intervening ages. Heck, even the mighty ancient ones themselves often seem to have slipped a lot, and are typically working now to regain their former power. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
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written Friday, April 14 2006 09:46
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I would hesistantly tie our love of all things ancient to the various resurgences of neoclassicism, but that may be begging the question. I can understand how fragmented medieval Europe looked back on Greece and especially Rome as wonderful and powerful pasts. It's interesting to look at how much science fiction also has ancient, powerful technology, often from extinct interstellar civilizations. Other sci-fi goes with a more obvious constant progression of technology so the amazing artifact has to be brand new. —Alorael, who supposes this may have to be a question of neophiles and neophobes. Are the latter the dominant market for fantasy? That seems unlikely. [ Friday, April 14, 2006 09:46: Message edited by: What you say if you say if... ] Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
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written Friday, April 14 2006 09:47
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I've always been under the impression that the "ancient" stuff, whether it be villian, artifact, power, etc., has always been something like the cream of the crop from its era. 1. It survived its era: it has to be significant. 2. If it's powerful enough to survive eons, then its powerful enough to be a mojor force now, right? 3. If it's that old, it is obviously mysterious and nobody nowadays is able of comprehending how it works, only that it does. 4. All that mythological stuff happened around the Dawn of Time, right? :P -------------------- The Silent Assassin claims to be as old as Time, if not older. I believe that statement to contain a Typo. -------------------- -Lenar Labs What's Your Destiny? Ushmushmeifa: Lenar's power is almighty and ineffable. All hail lord Noric, god of... well, something important, I'm sure. Posts: 735 | Registered: Monday, January 16 2006 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, April 14 2006 09:53
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Old artifacts are more thrilling because they have a story attached to them. If the fantasy work doesn't provide its own story, the audience is free to extrapolate its own. Demonslayer is a good example of this. It has a long history: Karzoth, its shattering, its gathering and reforging, and its repeated use by heroes. The result is that it seems to be the most popular weapon among users on the A4 forum, even though it is significantly worse than a host of other weapons. It had similar popularity in Exile, even though it was drastically less powerful than wielding two one-handed weapons. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Friday, April 14 2006 09:56
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This seems to be a convention of the genre. Sci-fi movies/books/games are about mad scientists building brand new ultimate-weapons-of-doom. Fantasy books/movies/RPGs are about evil wizards unleashing ancient-artifacts-of-doom. Fantasy focuses on history and history looks more impressive when it is more ancient. "I found a diary Bob wrote last year" doesn't sound nearly as impressive as "I've discoverted a secret journal of powerful archmage Bobius, which lay hidden for a thousand years." Another reason for old magic powers is that making up new spells appears to be a longer process than designing new devices. A mad scientist coming up with a dozen deadly gadgets in twenty years sounds reasonable, but a power-hungry wizard designing a dozen deadly spells in twenty years would be very unusual. So wizards are forced to search for ancient spells in dusty libraries, dangerous dungeons and forgotten tombs, while scientists can simply make stuff up the moment the author needs it. [ Friday, April 14, 2006 09:59: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Friday, April 14 2006 10:00
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We all resist change and fear the future. We all idealize the past because we forget bad memories and complex matters to remember the relief after the old crisis was gone. The past crisis serves a for entertainment and contrast to emphasize the relief. So it is only natural to place a fantastic world in the past. It is so much more comfortable to escape the present troubles of your life by "remembering" the past paradise than to imagine the worrying future. It is just human. -------------------- The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference. Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine) Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
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written Friday, April 14 2006 10:05
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Because recovering the Mystical Item of Doom from the Dungeon of Terror makes for a better story than would nipping down to the local supermarket to buy the new improved Ring of Power that's 50% more powerful than last year's model that the bad guy's using, perhaps. -------------------- Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram. desperance.net - Don't follow this link Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, April 14 2006 11:18
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Khoth's description, ironically, sounds just like Angband... And YAP, I don't think that holds true for everyone -- not at all. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, April 14 2006 11:59
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In Angband, by the time you can afford the One Ring [50% off], you don't need it anymore. —Alorael, who is still amused by Roger Zelazny and company's Forever After, which describes the process by which ancient artifacts get redistributed for future heroes and even how terrible guardians can be secured. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, April 14 2006 17:06
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quote:Well, so much for leaving. This thread has tempted me back. If an artifact has been recently made, presumably the techniques used to make it are still known -- which means somebody can just go and make more of them provided they have the right resources. On the other hand, if an artifact was made by an ancient civilisation whose knowledge has long since been lost, then the only powerful artifacts you'll ever have are the ones that currently exist. If an item was made by people who are still alive and could make another one, then that takes away from its uniqueness. Having powerful artifacts whose secrets aren't lost to the mists of time is also inconvenient plotwise -- there's not a whole lot of point going on a long and involved quest to find the legendary sword that can defeat the demon lord when it'd be easier to commission your local blacksmith to make another sword just like it. Likewise, destroying the Crown of Ultimate Evil doesn't solve anything if the next insane wizard to come along can make another. Of course, you can solve both of these problems without resorting to ancient artifacts by making the creation of awesomely powerful items possible but really, really difficult. For example, in a fantasy setting I'm working on for Pygmalion (Djur's RPG creation engine), a skilled mage can make run-of-the-mill magic items, but really powerful items have to get that way by picking up magical energy from being involved in great deeds. A sword that was used to slay a dragon might pick up a trace of the dragon's elemental powers; a spear that was stolen from a great hero's body by his assassin might grant its wielder powers of stealth and deception. This does mean that ancient artifacts tend to get even more powerful over time, but it also leaves open the possibility of a new item rising to power if it plays a central role in some major historical event. [ Friday, April 14, 2006 17:09: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5132
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written Friday, April 14 2006 17:11
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Heh, welcome back, Thuryl. Or did you just drop in one last time. :P -------------------- "Let us see what the new day brings." - Temas, Areni. Visit my realm! Rate My Scenarios! Fort Emerald Robbery The Nephils' Defense The Final Spire The Fifth Tower of Magi The Portal Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, October 25 2004 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
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written Friday, April 14 2006 17:14
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I figured that if I was going to keep reading the more interesting threads anyway, I might as well reply when I had something useful to say. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Friday, April 14 2006 18:23
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Not all mythologies have the powerful artifacts from the Dawn of Time. Norse myths have numerous items that are created and used in "modern" times. Thor's hammer, Odin's ring, various swords, the Volsung hoard that is the basis for the Neibelung cycle of Wagner are just a few examples. It's easier to use an old artifact, power, and/or villian to be the main plot point. Tolkien was a linguist interest in the old myths and legends. So having an extensive backround where the major figures are from the deep past makes sense. It also means that in other genres that something from the past forms the problem and the solution. Modern problems aren't always as interesting for some readers. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
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written Friday, April 14 2006 20:57
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I guess any powerful item had better be difficult to make. (Though the alternative of easy power suddenly becoming available also has mythology of a sort. "God didn't create men equal: Samuel Colt did.") But the task of uncovering enough ancient lore to find or activate an ancient artifact actually seems a lot more doable than the task of constructing one from scratch. More to the point, a reader can follow the process of digging up ancient scrolls and unravelling old riddles. Making a story about that sort of thing interesting, while avoiding deus ex machina, is almost a standard process. Making a story about a major new invention is a lot harder. You'd have to give the reader some idea of how it works, yet make it seem impressively difficult to understand, without resorting to mumbo-jumbo that just sounds arbitrary. That is, the constraints that make the invention difficult have to be convincing, but so does the trick that makes the invention work. And that's probably really hard. In reality you can't seem to maintain both conditions; the transition from impossible to trivial is quick. Most revolutionary inventions of real history seem obvious enough in hindsight that if we met them in fiction, we'd never believe people didn't see them before. But why wouldn't we believe that? Isn't it just because we can't believe that the wonderful folk of the past could really have been as dumb as us today? Hmmm. How many successful attempts at invention fantasies are there? Actually, I think Geneforge is a good one. So perhaps is Newton's Cannon, though its sequels degenerate miserably. Interestingly, both these examples use the same device, of making the creative trick seem convincing by making it analogous to scientific insights that readers know from the real world, but which are completely novel in the fictional world. So the reader's reaction, when the rabbit is pulled out of the hat, is to say, "Wow! Of course!", instead of, "Where the hell did that come from?". Pretty clever, that. Too bad it will only work until we run out of familiar science. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
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written Friday, April 14 2006 22:07
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quote:Sounds like the premise for a good Blades scenario. Slightly off topic, but spawned by my associate's comment below: Did you know that the first draft of the movie script had Monty Python finding the Holy Grail in a department store? -------------------- The Silent Assassin claims to have designed the Dungeon of Terror. When asked why, he told me, because The Mystical Item of Doom needed some place to be found. -------------------- -Lenar Labs What's Your Destiny? Ushmushmeifa: Lenar's power is almighty and ineffable. All hail lord Noric, god of... well, something important, I'm sure. Posts: 735 | Registered: Monday, January 16 2006 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
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written Saturday, April 15 2006 02:23
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"Where the hell did that come from?" was exactly my reaction when I got to the parts of Geneforge with the machines-that-aren't-called-microscopes looking at the tiny-scrolls-that-aren't-called-genes. It didn't seem believable because of its real world analogue, it just seemed out of place. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Councilor
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written Saturday, April 15 2006 05:47
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Originally by Slartucker: quote:But they are called genes in Geneforge. For me, the disconnection comes because my character hears them called "genes" when talking to people and looks through the viewing device, but doesn't ever connect the word with the object. Dikiyoba is sure that a highly intelligent Shaper ought to make the connection that tiny scrolls = genes. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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The Establishment
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written Saturday, April 15 2006 09:56
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A lot of the "ancient great times" likely originated from several factors: the Renaissance era of the ancient and all-knowing civilizations of Greece, Egypt, and Rome, myths of Atlantis and Eden, etc. One thing that is human is for nostalgia for the past. As someone had alluded to, even in ancient times of Plato and Aristotle there was an appeal to "the good old days". In Tolkein's stories we see it as well with the great kings of Gondor and Roham, the alliance of the elives, drawves, and men, and other places. The time that LoTR takes place is one of degeneracy and disarray, alliances gone, and the spirit of the past gone. A lot of this stems from simple nostalgia, a desire for some fantasy past where things were much better. I suspect a lot of what we read in fantasy comes from the mythical "good old days". -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
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written Saturday, April 15 2006 10:49
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By Lenar Labs: quote:That would have been better than the normal ending. Now, back on topic! -------------------- And now for something completely different... Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00 |
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