David Irving Jailed
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, February 20 2006 20:55
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving#Arrest_and_trial_in_Austria Discuss. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Monday, February 20 2006 21:03
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I see very little to discuss here... the man deserved it. I mean, why would he want to return to Austria after being barred from the country? And besides... he seems to be an incredibly unpleasant person in general. Such a blatant disregard for facts... -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, February 20 2006 21:05
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Putting him in jail seems like an awfully good way to convince his supporters that he is in fact being persecuted for stating his beliefs. (Well, he is, isn't he? The only question is whether persecuting him for stating his beliefs is justified.) -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
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written Monday, February 20 2006 21:07
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After reading news edit: So the law says he cannot deny the Holocaust. To me, an American, that sounds like a ban on free speech. However, the law is intended to keep the truth the truth and to strongly protect it. Don't go all reletivism and say that we really don't know the truth, because that's retardation (in this case). Irving himself even admitted to the gas chambers' existance. So, in conclusion, I'd say: he deserved it, because he knew better than to go into a country where he was banned from entering, that's just risky. I'm not saying he deserved it for his denial. [ Monday, February 20, 2006 21:15: Message edited by: Desert Pl@h ] -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Monday, February 20 2006 21:17
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The man's a dolt, but he has an opinion like six other billions of people. The fact that his opinion happens to make light of the genocide of several million people, and that it runs counter to historical fact, does not make him special; there are worse than him running around free. As Deborah Lipstadt said, the opinion he represents needs to be defeated with "history and with truth". That is feasible. We know the holocaust happened, and we know what the Nazi regime did - so why, instead of being met with facts, are the opponents silenced? It weakens our point and it makes them martyrs. -------------------- Encyclopaedia Ermariana • Forum Archives • Forum Statistics • RSS [Topic / Forum] My Blog • Polaris • I eat novels for breakfast. Polaris is dead, long live Polaris. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6489
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written Monday, February 20 2006 21:18
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He's horribly misguided, but I'm not sure that writing a book of lies is a crime. I mean, this really isn't libel. Whose reputation has been hurt? -------------------- "You're drinking liquor because you're thirsty? How nasty is your freaking water?" —Lazarus Spiderweb Chat Room Avernum RP • Summaries • OoC • Roster Shadow Vale - My site, home of the Spiderweb Chat Database, BoA Scenario Database, & the A1 Quest List, among other things. Posts: 1556 | Registered: Sunday, November 20 2005 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Monday, February 20 2006 21:19
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Well, he's being persecuted because of his statements, not because of his beliefs. Holocaust-denial skirts a very odd, narrow line in terms of free speech. I suppose that the argument could be made that denying the Holocaust is the first step to committing it again, so that the very act of denying that the Holocaust occurred represents a direct threat to the safety and security of all Jews. In that sense, I can see that this man is criminally dangerous. But such an argument seems dangerous in itself to me. I'm not sure how it could be manipulated to bad ends, but I'm sure that it could be. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Monday, February 20 2006 22:01
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This was not a new law. I don't happen to agree with the law, but it is the will of the Austrian government. The guy is an idiot for visiting a foriegn country in which there is a standing wawrrant for his arrest. Did he think that suddenly they would realize what a horrible mistake they had made and reverse the law? Idjit. Of course with a sentence of 3 years, including time served, he should be out and writing books again in 18 months. That should make that gal happy, since her income appears to come from books that debunk his books. Tidy. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 3442
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 07:08
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I'm uneasy on the whole issue of holocaust denial... Surely we should be encouraged to question what we are told? I don't know. I don't know enough facts to sustain a prolonged argument, yet I don't think that the existence of gas chambers is irreputable proof. I'll read up, and then form a more rounded opinion. In any case, one shouldn't be locked up for denying the Holocaust. -------------------- And when you want to Live How do you start? Where do you go? Who do you need to know? Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4256
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 07:32
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Odd, that he was arrested for entering a country he was barred from is understandable and fine, that there is a law banning denial of the holocaust is rather less understandable. Ok, so there is reason behind it, but imprisonment seems a bit extreme. Denying the holocaust is simaler to denying that 9/11 happened (or was run by the U.S. government), or denial of visitation to the moon, all rather far-fetched but not too threatening. Edit for correctness. Edit the second: If you happen to be interested in the 9/11 thing, this movie has been suggested to me for viewing. I never really cared to watch it, but hey, feel free to spend an hour and then comment. [ Tuesday, February 21, 2006 07:50: Message edited by: AxB ] -------------------- "Let's just say that if complete and utter chaos was lightning, he'd be the sort to stand on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armour and shouting 'All gods are false'." Posts: 564 | Registered: Wednesday, April 14 2004 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 07:36
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I'm not suggesting that the U.S. government was behind 9/11, but you have to admit that's more plausible than suggesting that it didn't happen at all. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 07:57
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I understand why he was arrested and convicted, and I can accept why, but I disagree with it. The slope of denial of free speech to disaster is at least as slippery as the slope of denying the Holocaust to repeating it. More so, I'd say. Still, I'm not sure Austria can get rid of its Holocaust laws. Doing so could easily turn into a political blunder as outsiders, particularly those who are very sensitive about the Holocaust, protest loudly. —Alorael, who can understand denying lunar landings. It's nutty, but the evidence that is meaningful to non-scientists could be faked. Denying 9/11 is difficult, particularly because of the notable landmark of Ground Zero. Denying the Holocaust is easier more than half a century after the fact. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 11:29
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The guy is a moron to deny the Holocaust in the first place, and then go to a country that would jail him for it. I can't get myself worked up to care too much about moral quandries that are easily avoided with a bit of common sense. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 32
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 11:44
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How do you know we didn't just pop into existence five seconds ago and have all these memories imprinted into our heads? EDIT: Not that I am in favor of such a view though. [ Tuesday, February 21, 2006 11:45: Message edited by: Lt. Sullust ] -------------------- Lt. Sullust Cogito Ergo Sum Polaris Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 11:55
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quote:I popped into existence after the eugenically motivated treatment of non-Aryans. I suspect most people on this board did so as well. I would think that since we didn't experience this stuff, the memories have indeed been imprinted into our brains. The Irving question is if we should collectively allow misinformation to be imprinted, and it is a troubling issue. It reminds me of the creation/I.D./evolution debate vis a vis schools and biology class. This is by no means an exact comparison, as there are living people which experienced the hatred themselves, and actual events are different than theories of anything. Anyway, two days ago I would have said "Who's he?" in response to inquiries. Now I know more. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 59
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 12:59
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I'm a pretty radical supporter of free speech, so I'm against laws of this kind. quote:Yes, it's hardly a coincidence that Germany and Austria have such laws. Posts: 950 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 15:05
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If mankind fails to act to prevent future genocides, then people might as well deny the existance of the Holocaust, because mankind clearly hasn't learned anything from it. If mankind chooses to remember the Holocaust, then people and governments must act to prevent anything similar from happening. Dikiyoba. Edit: And let's not forget the Soviet Union under Stalin. An estimated 20 million people died. [ Tuesday, February 21, 2006 15:06: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ] Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 15:09
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quote:That's different in another way, too: if a school proposed teaching a history class that denied that the Holocaust ever happened, I'd be up in arms against it. That's a government-funded, government-run institution. This I find a little harder to get worked up about, because it's a private citizen. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 15:18
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There is no shortage of examples of the mass destruction of humans by humans for particularly stupid reasons. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 15:29
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EDIT: I've said something stupid here. I've admitted it was stupid. There is no reason to keep proving to me that it was. [ Wednesday, February 22, 2006 19:03: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 17:51
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I don't know about "perfectly acceptable", Zeviz... where exactly do you live? You say that here and you can expect quite a storm of refutal and accusations of racism. About Irving, I agree with Alorael - it may not be right to lock him up, but Austria doesn't have much of a choice. I'd argue for his freedom, but practicality is always a nice thing to maintain. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon Polaris = joy. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Tuesday, February 21 2006 19:34
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You know, Zeviz, just because they ARE out to get you doesn't mean you're not paranoid. :P -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Wednesday, February 22 2006 09:29
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quote:Until recently, Berkeley, California, the only place where I had stuff thrown at me when walking next to a guy in kippah at night. That didn't happen even in Moscow, where we had chalk marks on all Jewish mailboxes in our apartment building ("we know where you live" kind of thing) and excrement smeared over our apartment door one night. (To be fair, most people wouldn't be dumb enough to walk down a street wearing a kippah in Moscow, especially not at night, so comparison isn't exactly fair.) And if you think I am just paranoid, I am in a big company, because after (or mabe even before, I don't remember) the chalk marks on Jewish mailboxes incident my parents and their Jewish friends installed steel-reinforced doors in our apartments, so they took the warning seriously enough. That's why I think this guy goes beyond the limits of "protected free speech". There were a couple of attacks against Jews on major holidays almost every year I've been in Berkeley, so it's kind of hard for me to appreciate the abstract "slippery slope" argument, when I have physical danger to worry about. [ Wednesday, February 22, 2006 09:31: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, February 22 2006 10:33
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According to that theory, Zeviz, shouldn't the existence of hate crimes against gays be justification to ban speech suggesting that homosexuality is unnatural? Hell, that kind of speech has an even more direct link to hate crimes than holocaust denial does (though I agree there is a legitimate link there, as well). It's a ridiculous idea. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Wednesday, February 22 2006 13:31
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Or hate speech against a football team you don't support and/or their fans? There tends to be a bit of violence there. Or how about outlawing being angry? There's a strong link between that and violence. Alternatively, you could just, you know, ban the violence itself. Anyway, I don't believe in free speech being a moral right... but I do believe that it's desirable in cases like this. If openly denying the Holocaust lands you in jail, that just pushes the idea underground. It becomes easy for adherents to point at cases where those "brave" enough to "expose the truth" were locked up for it. And it's all because the Jews don't want people to question the Holocaust myth, or they might see it for the bundle of lies that it is. Those bloody Jews. Someone needs to put them in their place. Allowing free public discourse on the subject allows debunking of such myths. And the propogation of the myths themselves, of course, but what are you going to do? -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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