Youth in Asia and the US Supreme Court
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Friday, October 7 2005 23:00
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The state of Oregon has a little law on the books called the Death with Dignity Act. It is built upon the hippocratic oath, and assumes that the doctor patient relationship is well enough developed that the doctor knows a patient can't be cured, and the patient understands the potential left in their lifetime. Someone sued, and now the US Supreme Court will listen to the case and decide on the constitutionality of the matter. Since we have little hope in swaying the judges, let it be understood that opinions reflected in this thread will not have the same force as opinions of the supreme court. *this message is sponsored by robert's rules of order (hardback edition)* Poll Information This poll contains 2 question(s). 25 user(s) have voted. You may not view the results of this poll without voting. function launch_voter () { launch_window("http://www.ironycentral.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=poll;d=vote;pollid=GqgPvoHTRMwQ"); return true; } // end launch_voter function launch_viewer () { launch_window("http://www.ironycentral.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=poll;d=view;pollid=GqgPvoHTRMwQ"); return true; } // end launch_viewer function launch_window (url) { preview = window.open( url, "preview", "width=550,height=300,toolbar=no,location=no,directories=no,status,menubar=no,scrollbars,resizable,copyhistory=no" ); window.preview.focus(); return preview; } // end launch_window   Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5886
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written Friday, October 7 2005 23:33
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The simple fact of the matter is, I own my life. I understand why some might be opposed to voluntary euthanasia. Many of the Christian faith, and perhaps others, fear that any kind of euthanasia has the effect of cheapening life and fear that this could influence society's views such that other justifications for it could be brought foward. However, this neurotic fear will not stop me from asking to die when I am in pain and terminally ill. Perhaps the real point of contention (this relates more to the second question) with this issue is that someone could possibly make a mistake: this person could actually get over their pain and disease and survive to live longer. There are many cases where this has happened. So yes, people can make mistakes, and our prognosis-developing techniques are flawed and based upon incomplete information. But since people own their own lives, they should be making the choice for themselves, at their own cost. Especially if they are elderly and have no dependents. Edit: I am sorry, this might be an ignorant question, but what does this have to do with youths in Asia? Did I reply too soon? Edit2: To answer my own question, it appears that yes, I did. :( [ Saturday, October 08, 2005 01:56: Message edited by: Aranea Hirsuta ] -------------------- My friend! Do not fear the flames of the demonic legion! Let the flames incinerate your weakness, strip away all neuroses, and transform you into a newly-forged brazen GOD! Then you will show the subhuman supplicants the true meaning of domination and the proper use of POWER! --Daemon Pavidum Posts: 52 | Registered: Friday, June 3 2005 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Friday, October 7 2005 23:40
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Say "Youth in Asia" quickly. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Friday, October 7 2005 23:42
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Oh hairy one you must speak the words aloud. It is a dark and contentious topic for some people, but not many people have problems with young people in asia. It's nice to start the topic with a little off-topic humor to lighten the mood. *this message sponsored by heat of the moment* Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5886
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written Friday, October 7 2005 23:49
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Oh, duh, yeah, I get it, thanks. Hehe. -------------------- My friend! Do not fear the flames of the demonic legion! Let the flames incinerate your weakness, strip away all neuroses, and transform you into a newly-forged brazen GOD! Then you will show the subhuman supplicants the true meaning of domination and the proper use of POWER! --Daemon Pavidum Posts: 52 | Registered: Friday, June 3 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, October 8 2005 00:35
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In some western cultures, America in particular which I know best, it is apparent to me that we are quite afraid of death. We resort to going to extreme and extremely expensive lengths to stave off death for as long as possible. We have developed medical technologies which now enable us to cling to a life far beyond the place where all in nature has decreed otherwise, even when the quality of life is virtually non-existent. Does this make sense? Is this necessary? Why are we compelled to worship every last possible rasping breath to the degree that we use technology to cheat death, often after not caring for our bodies while we live and invoking disease as a consequence? New technologies are not given pause for philsophical debate. They are implemented because they can be without much question as to the overall need or affect. They are implemented because there is money to be made. There is much money to be made off the fear of death. I think clinging to life to such an unreal degree is only necessary if we are terrified to die in some timely, reasonable, and—yes—dignified fashion. I don’t know about you, but I’m not shuffling off this mortal coil after languishing for weeks, months, or years in some rapaciously and mercenarily overpriced hospital bed, costing unimaginable thousands or millions of my family’s and country’s finances. Similarly, we are so quick to sue and blame others when accidents occur and claim lives. There is no way we can prevent all such situations nor is it necessarily the case that someone messed up or a cut a corner and is to blame for a technological failure. Life is often messy and unpredictable. Our inventions are dangerous and imperfect by nature. Much technological progress rides on a foundation of much spilt blood—intentionally or accidentally. There are no guarantees in life or for the length of life. I believe in reasonable caution and accountability, for sure. Beyond a certain point, we cross over into hysterical selfishness and unreasonableness. No one and nothing can protect us from everything all the time. Being so viciously litigous and not particularly stoic in the face of tragic and accidental deaths also betrays our fear of death. We are simply terrified to die. It is a part of life we find unthinkable and unacceptable, a fact betrayed by our behavior. If one embraces a more natural, whollistic kind of life in general, then being sustained for long periods by tubes and machines is not living at all anyway, and not a viable option for ending a life. Who would want to live or die like that? The expense is incredible...and for what? In the cases of the very old, it really is their time to go when bodies fail to that degree, but we are so afraid to let people go, to let them die (or I daresay to reap what they have sown), that we will bankrupt our families and the living on behalf of the dying. This is insane imbalance and nature does not work this way. What I am not sure of is whether it is the elderly dying or the living families around them who are more the promoter of this behavior. I suspect it is plenty of both, but perhaps more the latter. Ironically, I think it is selfish, to cling to anyone’s life when perhaps it is time to let them go for the good of us all. Staving off the inevitable simply because it CAN be done is not the greatest good. It is self-serving and ultimately futile. The values represented by our present approach in America are quite surreal and nonsensical to me the longer I look at them. Underneath it all, I see the simple fear of death. We haven’t really come to terms with it yet in a healthy and meaningful way. The fact that we don’t really permit anyone to grieve in the necessary and healthy fashion in various intellectualized western nations is another matter all its own. [ Saturday, October 08, 2005 00:41: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Saturday, October 8 2005 06:26
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It was actually the U.S. Justice Department under Ashcroft that brought the case. They lost at the trial and appellate levels, so now they're trying their luck in the Supreme Court. The case actually has more to do with federalism than anything else. Several years ago, the court heard a case and found that while there wasn't an inherent right to die in the Constitution, legislative bodies (Congress or individual state legislatures) were not prohibited from passing legislation regarding this issue. Oregon did, and now those conservative hypocrites (States' rights! States rights! Oh... wait a minute! Trump states' rights! Trump states' rights!) are twisting a part of the Controlled Substances Act (which was designed to go after abuse of drugs for recreation purposes) to try to overrrule Oregon's law. I believe that the Supreme Court will likely affirm the Court of Appeals decision - this is too gross a twisting of Congress' intent in drafting the CSA and too great a violation of states' rights. Frankly, I think that people should have this right. If you don't like the law, you don't have to use it. It's also a place where people should butt out of other peoples' business. The entire basis for a stance against this law is religious. Given that religion is a personal matter, not a state matter, what happens to an individual in the afterlife is their business. I respect religious folks' right to be crazy. They should respect others' rights to be "crazy" as well, and certainly not try to wield state and national power to get their way. That's authoritarian. EDIT: Also, for individuals with so firm a faith in an afterlife, they sure do fear death a lot. Something to think about. [ Saturday, October 08, 2005 06:30: Message edited by: Drew ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Mongolian Barbeque
Member # 1528
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written Saturday, October 8 2005 09:53
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I remember when I was a kid and heard adults speaking out against euthanasia. My reaction to it all was "What's so bad about kids in China?" Finally one day I came across the word in a book and looked it up in the dictionary, learning its meaning, pronunciation, and etymology. And what do you know, the adults weren't talking about kids in China after all. -------------------- The A.E. van Vogt Information Site My Tribute to the Greatest Writer of the Science Fiction Golden Age Posts: 907 | Registered: Monday, July 15 2002 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Saturday, October 8 2005 10:19
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Synergy, yet again you've managed to summarize the standard American attitude in a single post (albeit a rather long one). (applause) I think that all voluntary euthanasia should be legalized, it should just be protected to the degree that people don't decide to end it all on a whim. The desire to die must be persistent, as weird as that sounds. From what I've heard about other systems, I like the models offered in the Netherlands and Germany the most (thank you 8:30 a.m. philosophy class). In Germany, active euthanasia is unsupported by the public, so they stick with the passive variety (which we use in the U.S., usually by removing a feeding tube). After all, when so many people are haunted by the past atrocities of Nazi doctors performing active euthanasia, it's understandable. However, a private organization called Deutsche Gesellschaft für Humanes Sterben (it translates to the German Society for Dying with DIgnity) offers support to its members who would rather commit suicide than go through a prolonged and painful terminal illness. They also offer training for family members in Sterbebegleitung (accompaniment in dying), which means helping someone carry out their suicide. It seems odd, and many people disagree with it, but it's an interesting alternative. However, the laws in Germany run something to the effect that anyone assisting with the suicide must leave before the dying person loses consciousness, or else they are legally responsible for reviving them. In the Netherlands, voluntary active euthanasia is permitted, provided that: 1) the patient's request is voluntary and well-thought-out, 2) the patient is headed for long and painful suffering, 3) every other alternative has been tried & the patient believes there's no other way, 4) the patient knows exactly what's going on, 5) a second opinion has been obtained verifying the patient's condition, and 6) the physician must act with due care. This system has worked, and the entire process is socially tolerated. The government is watching it, however, and hopes to avoid the whole "slippery slope" scenario. While I believe that either system is preferable to the one present in America, I'm pretty certain that a majority of Americans wouldn't accept it, due to the mindset already explained by Synergy. Still, it's a choice (parallel to the abortion discussion... creepy), and people should be able to act on their choice. And anything that John Ashcroft supported, I think I'm legally bound to oppose. I hate him. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, October 8 2005 10:31
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HA! You thought that was long. Don't worry, I think I said nearly all I really wanted to contribute to this one. I have to give my roommate some credit too. He quite some time back, first made a point of how scared we Americans are of death apparently, which led to a good discussion on the topic and further thinking on the matter by me. It was interesting, Ephesos, to hear a bit more specifically how other nations have decided to approach those little ones in the far east. It's a highly tricky one, this matter, no matter where we land on the issue. Pinning down how to handle it legally looks complicated, though to me, it could start as simple as, if you require being hooked up to some machine to keep living, you should have the right to disconnect the thing and turn it off and whatever happens after that is what happens. Once we start considering lethal injections to hasten the process beyond a "natural" death, it gets much messier. -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
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written Saturday, October 8 2005 10:35
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Yeah, I honestly need to look into more countries' perceptions of euthanasia. Could be interesting, particularly among nations with more varied religious opinions (i.e.: Japan, China, Iran, South Africa, etc.). And I have my usually-boring but surprisingly-informative philosophy class to thank for my enlightenment about Germany and the Netherlands. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, October 8 2005 17:08
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quote:That's already the case in almost every country, as part of the right to refuse medical treatment. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6278
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written Saturday, October 8 2005 17:15
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Personally, I believe that someone or something has put me here. So have a bit of a problem with switching off the lights prematurely, because I wanna see where this is going. Having said that, I'm not terminally ill or in constant pain, and I might well change my mind if I was unfortunate enough to find myself in that position. I'm not at all afraid to die, but I am very afraid of pain and suffering usually associated with it. (I really hope I will one day die quickly, or peacefully in my sleep at 98.) I don't think suicide or assisted death is a good thing in any circumstance. We didn't make ourselves born, so we shouldn't kill ourselves either. However, I attibute everyone the right to choose for themselves, so people who DO choose Euthanasia should have the right to do so. Although - do you think legalising assited death might open opportunities to hide murder? Say, to get rid of terminally ill or heavily disabled relatives who are a constant burden on their families? (This is just an example, think "frail old rich Auntie" or something) The more I think about it, the more complex it seems to become. -------------------- I outnumbered them one to thirty! Posts: 33 | Registered: Tuesday, September 6 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, October 8 2005 17:31
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quote:Not likely. Or at least, it wouldn't be any easier than it already is to bump someone off and make a fake suicide note. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Saturday, October 8 2005 20:26
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I like the Netherlands' system, although I'm a bit surprised to hear that it works. There's a lot of ambiguity in all that; how do they decide what's "well-thought-out", for instance, or "due care", and what do they do if the patient can't speak or think clearly? I'm against euthansia for myself, but like Laurana, I don't know if that will change some day. But honestly, I place the value of life over the value of the choice between life and death. There has to be a really good reason for me to approve of euthanasia. Drew, I believe in the afterlife, and yet I definitely fear death. What I fear is not literal oblivion, though; it's not making as much of my time here as I should have. A little obsessive, maybe, but that's the way it is for me and probably for plenty of others as well. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon Polaris = joy. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
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written Saturday, October 8 2005 20:49
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I'm just curious, but who besides myself was offended by this poll? And why? I was offended because UBB wouldn't give me the space to ask the right question, so I ended up with crappy ones. And I forgot to add the real ones into the first post, so the poll is even more useless now. For the record, the first question should have read ....would you like to have the right to deliberately die. The second question is more metaphysical, and can stand on its own merit. *this message sponsored by the pole building manufacturers association* Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, October 8 2005 21:08
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quote:How do you reconcile this with the problem of evil, the mainstream solution to which is to give free will an absolutely paramount position in religious moral philosophy -- that is, that it's best for people to be able to make the wrong choice rather than to take that choice away from them? In fact, one could make a good case that as a Christian it's your moral duty to give other people as many opportunities to sin as possible. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Saturday, October 8 2005 21:43
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quote:I believe a lot of paperwork is involved in the decision to go for active euthanasia. And while there are cases of active euthanasia where the patient never filled out all of the paperwork, they are usually cases where they had privately told their doctor of their wishes, and later became unable to sign the right forms. This can work because apparently the Netherlands medical system is often a bit more in-touch with patients and their families. The idea of a "family doctor" who makes house calls is alive and well there, as I understand it. Thus, it's a lot easier than it would be in the U.S, where hospitals would inevitably get sued. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Sunday, October 9 2005 12:33
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quote:Hmm. It still seems a bit hypocritical to me. If your immortal soul is going to be in the bosom of the Lord, how can you even wait to die? Death is objectively permanent. Given that, why should anyone other than ourselves have a right to say whether we can make such a decision when we choose? It seems to me that each of us has the most interest in how long we live. I believe that their are circumstances when death becomes a better choice than continuing to live. One of those circumstances is when someone is terminally ill and in constant, severe pain. When my grandfather was dying from about five different kinds of cancer, I couldn't help but wonder whether it would have been better for him to end it before it got really bad, when his liver was failing, and he lost everything that was important to him as a man - his strength, his ability to even move or eat or taste, his sight and hearing, and eventually his mind. Unfortunately for the guy, he had an amazing consititution, such that his body had him hanging on for two-thirds of a year - eight months of constant, mind-boggling pain and personal humiliation. If you had to face that, knowing you were going to die at the end of it, wouldn't you want to just go peacefully sooner? I remind you that Oregon's law was dubbed the "Death with Dignity Act" for a reason. If God is a forgiving God, I can't see how He would possibly not be merciful to someone making this decision. How can such a choice possibly come from sin? In all the time that the law has been in effect (maybe three years?), only a little over two-hundred people have availed themselves of it. People aren't dying in droves or "abusing" it. Frankly, I don't understand why the government is so opposed to this law. [ Sunday, October 09, 2005 12:37: Message edited by: Drew ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
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written Monday, October 10 2005 02:31
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Personally, I am not sure if I would want to take my own life if terminally ill. Probably not, as long as I am not in unbearable pain. However, I sure want the right to choose that, and likewise for everyone else. [ Monday, October 10, 2005 02:32: Message edited by: Atrus ] -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6347
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written Monday, October 10 2005 03:08
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Youth in Asia... I didn't get it until I looked at this thread... and I stayed away until now because I thought the thread dealt with sweat shops and the such... >.< But, well, I didn't vote. I don't understand the second question of the thread. Life is sacred. People could make mistakes. That said, though, I know that under certain extreme circumstances, laws wouldn't matter much to me, and I'd do anything in my power to end it. And if it wouldn't be in my power (in the most extreme of cases), I'd be mighty thankful for a bit of help. quote:Honestly, I didn't read beyond this part of the thread. For now, that's enough for what I have to say. I'll read more when it's not 8am. Though I'm not sure if I'll post more, because then I'd have to go into greater detail about my views of death, and how ridiculous I find present Western views of death. I'll only say this, for now... Yes, it seems that a fear of death is a very human feeling. This seems to be particularly the case when it comes to people who don't believe in an after-life. And as much as the present trend in the West these days seems to favor the religious right, it seems to me that a large portion of westerners are, basically, atheists. At least to a certain degree. I'm not. I believe in some form of continuation (what, exactly, is a long story for another time). I made my peace with death a long time ago, and this is something I'm quite thankful for. I look forward to death. Not in some morbid way, but simply in the sense that my beliefs are such that a good death is the reward to a good life. Death is not the beginning, in my opinion; it is simply the continuation of The Great Adventure. A step forward; not an end. Ultimately, I can't help but feel that we focus far too much on the length and duration of life... saddly, doing so, we tend to forget about the quality of life. Which is, IMHO, a far more important detail. -------------------- "Take time to listen to what is said without words, to obey the law too subtle to be written, to worship the unnameable and to embrace the unformed." -- Lao Tzu Posts: 124 | Registered: Monday, September 26 2005 07:00 |