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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Friday, May 6 2005 10:18
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quote:Discuss. -------------------- The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) Famous Last Words - A local pop-punk band They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
Agent
Member # 4506
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written Friday, May 6 2005 10:31
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Sounds a bit harsh. I mean, if they want to be gay , it's up to them. They shouldn't be counted any differently from anyone else. That's just another form of racism! I'm probably too young to have the right idea about this, but they can't they tell if people are gay or not - can they? Anyway, lets see what the rest of you think! - Archmagi Micael -------------------- "You dare Trifle with Exile?" - Erika the Archmage -------------------- My Scenarios: Undead Valley : A small Undead problem, what could possibly go wrong? -------------------- Proof of Richard Black's existance: Richard Black - PROOF of his existance (the Infernal one's website). Posts: 1370 | Registered: Thursday, June 10 2004 07:00 |
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Friday, May 6 2005 10:49
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They try to collect a LOT of information about sperm and egg donors, so that clients can choose what sort of genes they may be getting. I'm sure a donor could conceal homosexuality if they really tried to, but it would require a substantial effort. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Friday, May 6 2005 11:27
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What is the motivation for donating sperm in the first place? I understand there may be some monetary compensation, but it can't be that much, and certainly not enough for me to risk having a child I would have inadvertantly "fathered" running around. For that matter, aren't sperm banks pretty selective regarding everyone as is? Their clients would certainly have an interest in receiving product from muscle-bound, high-metabolismed, genius Adonises. Most of us on these boards, for example, likely wouldn't pass muster. :) I looked at the reg, and there are tons of other qualifiers, so I don't think it's entirely built to "stick it to the gays" - the rule doesn't mention this qualifier for discrimination, the draft guidance document does, which doesn't have the force of law. Unsurprisingly, the proposed rule for these regs was published back in 1997, while the draft guidance was published in 2004. [ Friday, May 06, 2005 11:32: Message edited by: andrew miller ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
Agent
Member # 2210
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written Friday, May 6 2005 11:31
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Who is going to admit that they did this? I think that it would be next to impossible to find this out. This article is referring to anonymous donors. People can and will tell you almost anything if they have anonymity. They also will lie blatantly. It is an unenforceable ruling. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
Shake Before Using
Member # 75
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written Friday, May 6 2005 12:19
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"Anonymous" means that they just donate to the sperm bank, not knowing whether their sperm will ever be used or who it will be used by, not that they don't keep records and information on the donors. It's as opposed to "directed" sperm donation, where you specifically ask someone to donate the sperm that are to be implanted in you. Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Friday, May 6 2005 13:25
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It's probably due in part to the overwhelming number of people who still can't cope with the idea of gay people even existing. Some people probably still think it can be inherited. quote:And that's just cruel. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
Agent
Member # 3364
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written Friday, May 6 2005 18:35
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quote:I think this would also be interesting to discuss. Is being gay a genetic thing? Supposedly if you are 'born' gay then it must be written in your genes and therefore passable to the next generation. Is there any evidence that a 'gay gene' exsists? If it does then women should have the right to at least choose if they wanted a donation from a gay or straight man. If it does not then does the 'born gay' issue even hold water? -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Friday, May 6 2005 18:42
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If there is a gay gene, you'd think it wouldn't have lasted very darn long. My opinion is that it's psychological. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
Warrior
Member # 4590
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written Friday, May 6 2005 19:44
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From my understanding of it, it's thought that genetically you can have a predisposition for it, but it isn't absolutely determined by genes. So genetic and enviornmental factors are probably both important. -------------------- I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation. - George Bernard Shaw Posts: 103 | Registered: Sunday, June 20 2004 07:00 |
Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, May 6 2005 20:02
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There are all kinds of genes that seem like they should disappear. Tay-Sachs disease, for example, can't be transmitted by anyone with the phenotype because they don't live nearly long enough. It's transmitted entirely through heterozygous carriers. If the "gay" gene were a simple recessive gene, it could stay in the population for a while. Also keep in mind that many homosexuals do have and have had families and children, especially historically. Societal pressure is a terrible thing. For a better example, look at cystic fibrosis. It's extraordinarily prevalent for a lethal phenotype. What makes it so common? I don't know, but I would bet that it, like the sickle-cell anemia allele, has some benefit to heterozygous carriers that evolutionarily outweighs the disadvantage. None of the evidence for genetic predisposition towards homosexuality or heterosexuality supports anything nearly as simple as a single gene, recessive or dominant, but that can at least explain how a seemingly disadvantageous trait (from a reproductive standpoint) can spread in a population. —Alorael, who would like to point out that AL's comment suggests a belief in microevolution. Darwin will have his due! Okay, sorry, but it had to be said. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, May 6 2005 20:09
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quote:Current thinking is that being heterozygous for cystic fibrosis provides partial protection against certain bacterial infections, such as typhoid fever and cholera, which take advantage of the CFTR protein (encoded by the gene for cystic fibrosis) in various ways to cause disease. Now, moving back on topic, I should add that twin concordance studies (comparing how often pairs of identical twins are both homosexual relative to pairs of non-identical twins) have had mixed results and generally suggested a fairly modest genetic contribution to homosexuality. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
BANNED
Member # 4
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written Friday, May 6 2005 20:23
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Thuryl, you've heard of the lab rat study in the 70's where the mother was exposed to stressful conditions, right? Essentially, the gist of it is that mothers who were exposed to stressful conditions during pregnancy released a hormone mid-pregnancy that suppressed the effects of testosterone in mental development by way of outsourcing. Offspring of the stressed mothers exhibitied receptive (female) sexual behavior, despite their being genetically male. The conclusion of this study would be that homosexuality is a natural population control- see, for instance, Lemmings. With respect to homosexual tendencies, because Creator is right for once insomuch as a gay "gene" wouldn't last very long, my hunch is that there is not a gene strictly for homosexuality but rather one for propensity to be affected by the hormones. Here's hoping Stuggie (the biochem major) can shed some light into this situation. -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, May 6 2005 21:01
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Yes, I've heard of the "stressed rat" study, although I wasn't aware of the details. It's not implausible. There's plenty of evidence that whatever the major factors influencing sexual orientation are, they start acting in early childhood if not sooner. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
Shaper
Member # 5450
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written Friday, May 6 2005 21:22
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If you are gay and oyu contracted HIV from some-one, you are not able to donate sperm for five years. Wouldn't it of left your system in that time? And wouldn't you of not got it if you wore a condom? I think that those rules are a bit drastic, but no doubt will be effective. As andrew miller (I think) said, there are plenty more men willing to donate sperm, and possibly with a lot of gays off the waiting list, they can make as much as they want. But, what difference will it make wether the sperm a couple (or lesbians) use is from a gay or a straight? -------------------- I'll put a Spring in your step. Polaris Posts: 2396 | Registered: Saturday, January 29 2005 08:00 |
...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, May 6 2005 21:28
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quote:Whoa. The prohibition is not if you contracted HIV in the past five years, it's if you had gay sex in the past five years (even if you used protection). If you test positive for HIV, you can't donate at all -- HIV is not something that "leaves your system", ever. The virus just keeps multiplying and your immune system weakens until in 10 years or so you die of an opportunistic infection. The problem they're trying to address is that in some cases, it can take as many as 6 months after you actually contract HIV before HIV tests return positive results. So they're trying to eliminate groups who are supposedly at high risk for sexually transmissible infections. [ Friday, May 06, 2005 21:29: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Friday, May 6 2005 22:39
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quote:I make no secret of the fact that I think the genetic makeup of populations can change somewhat over time - that much is pretty obvious. I'm just sceptical that these changes could make men and elephants and kangaroos out of single-celled organisms. In other words, it didn't have to be said. :P Edit: On topic, there's also the possibility that homosexuality can be caused by different, unrelated factors. I feel confident that at least some cases are psychological, but that's not to say others aren't caused by a hormone imbalance or something. [ Friday, May 06, 2005 22:41: Message edited by: Ash Lael ] -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, May 6 2005 23:50
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quote:The line between "psychological" and "hormonal" isn't one that can be cleanly drawn. Psychosocial events cause changes in biochemical functioning and vice versa. It's probably never going to be possible to look at particular cases and say whether they were caused originally by a psychosocial event, a biochemical idiosyncrasy, or some combination of the two. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
BANNED
Member # 4
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written Saturday, May 7 2005 06:00
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If homosexuality does have pre-partum hormonal origins, then calling homosexuality "non-natural" and furthering the theory that it's largely sociological is a great way to turn it into a disease to be treated. Of course, you can always state that all sexuality must possess fecundity as the Church does- of course, the Church also says that infertile women are much more "open to life" than homosexuals, which seems to speak of- dare I say it- a heterocentric bias! Eh. [ Saturday, May 07, 2005 06:00: Message edited by: Kirk Johnson ] -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
Agent
Member # 3364
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written Saturday, May 7 2005 13:40
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quote:The Church, though, has a few examples of infertile women from the Bible to help draw that conclusion. There is only one example of a homosexual realtionship that was not explicitly frowned on and even that can be argued to be nothing of the sort.(Jonathan and David) I also would disagree that the Church states that all sexuality must possess fecundity instead all sexuality must be within marriage. I mean what happens after menopause? Or after a hysterectomy? No sex then, too? I doubt any church says anything of the sort. Also, if being gay is soley from hormone imbalances or a psychological disposition then it has to be classified as a 'treatable disease' because both suggest something wrong with what shold be. The only way for it not to be treatable is if it is truly genetic and part of the DNA makeup one is born with. Any other underlying cause makes is treatable. [ Saturday, May 07, 2005 13:50: Message edited by: Jewels of the Forest ] -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, May 7 2005 15:13
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quote:Not necessarily. Having a limb amputated isn't a genetic disorder, but it isn't treatable either. In any case, even if it could be treated, should it be? There are plenty of medical conditions which could be considered abnormalities in the strict sense of the word, but aren't routinely treated (even if treatment is available) because they don't cause any particular harm. [ Saturday, May 07, 2005 15:17: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
BANNED
Member # 4
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written Saturday, May 7 2005 15:40
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It's a hormonal imbalance at development- that is to say, it assists in forming your body. Once you have those features, you're done. (Homosexuals, for instance, have larger social areas of the brain than normal males, much like females.) For instance, if your mom injects "big ear" hormones into her womb whilst you're developing, you'll come out looking like Ross Perot, and there ain't a damned thing in the world you can do about it. As for why it shouldn't be cured? Apart from irrational bigotry that a bearer will have to suffer (and at that point, why not cure the diseases of blackness and emotive capacity?), it's a natural population control. And puh-leeze don't doubt my ecclesiastical rearing. The three tenets to the sacrament of marriage, outside of which sexuality is not permitted, are fidelity, permanence, and openness to new life. The third tenet is the reason why the church frowns on the use of contraceptives and also homosexuality. If you are going to insist that a woman whose uterus was removed as a result of cancer being allowed to marry shows that fecundity is not a black and white determinant of openness to new life, then you are very correct (and also not particularly observant). What I am saying is that the catholic church is choosing its own readings of its own dogma for the purpose of gay-bashing, as it has clearly demonstrated its ability to bend the rules with examples of infertile women. To put this in simpler terms, the church considers homosexuality to be intrinsically evil because it is a sexual act not open to life. Sex between a man and a woman who cannot give birth (even in the "natural family planning" asscovering the church provides) has the same exact biological ramifications. Attempting to deny homosexuals the unitive aspect of a sexual relationship is difficult to explain without resorting to bigotry. Oh yeah, just as a point of reference- Sarai and Israel's barren wife only had intercourse with Abram and Jacob after an angel flew down from heaven and assured the couple as a prophecy that she would bear a child. This message is typically not given after a woman has a uterectomy. :P Unless you're going to deny the plausibility of scripture to justify theology, then using that as a point is moot. (I can't remember the name of Jacob's wife offhand. Biblical literature was three years ago.) -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, May 7 2005 15:44
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To put it another way, if God can miraculously make a menopausal woman pregnant, he can miraculously make a man pregnant too. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Saturday, May 7 2005 15:57
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How the hell did they know the women were barren if they didn't have sex? You're just plain nuts. Genesis 30 pretty much spells it out explicitly, to the point where Jacob's wives are trading nights with him. How are we supposed to take you seriously when you say stuff like that? This is one point where I disagree with Catholic theology. I see nothing wrong with contraceptive use. I think the idea behind Catholic thinking is less "no sex without babies" and more "no playing God". I could be very wrong though, I never really understood their POV. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, May 7 2005 16:06
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quote:No, it really is "no sex without babies", for the most part. According to Catholic theology, the sexual act exists primarily for the purpose of conception. "No babies without sex" is applicable as well -- IVF is right out. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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