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quote:

New Rules to Bar Gay Men as Anonymous Sperm Donors
By DAVID CRARY, AP


NEW YORK (May 6) - To the dismay of gay-rights activists, the Food and Drug Administration is about to implement new rules recommending that any man who has engaged in homosexual sex in the previous five years be barred from serving as an anonymous sperm donor.

The FDA has rejected calls to scrap the provision, insisting that gay men collectively pose a higher-than-average risk of carrying the AIDS virus. Critics accuse the FDA of stigmatizing all gay men rather than adopting a screening process that focuses on high-risk sexual behavior by any would-be donor, gay or straight.

"Under these rules, a heterosexual man who had unprotected sex with HIV-positive prostitutes would be OK as a donor one year later, but a gay man in a monogamous, safe-sex relationship is not OK unless he's been celibate for five years,'' said Leland Traiman, director of a clinic in Alameda, Calif., that seeks gay sperm donors.

Traiman said adequate safety assurances can be provided by testing a sperm donor at the time of the initial donation, then freezing the sperm for a six-month quarantine and testing the donor again to be sure there is no new sign of HIV or other infectious diseases.

Although there is disagreement over whether the FDA guideline regarding gay men will have the force of law, most doctors and clinics are expected to observe it.

The practical effect of the provision - part of a broader set of cell and tissue donation regulations that take effect May 25 - is hard to gauge. It is likely to affect some lesbian couples who want a child and prefer to use a gay man's sperm for artificial insemination.

But it is the provision's symbolic aspect that particularly troubles gay-rights groups. Kevin Cathcart, executive director of Lambda Legal, has called it "policy based on bigotry.''

"The part I find most offensive - and a little frightening - is that it isn't based on good science,'' Cathcart said. "There's a steadily increasing trend of heterosexual transmission of HIV, and yet the FDA still has this notion that you protect people by putting gay men out of the pool.''

In a letter to the FDA, Lambda Legal has suggested a screening procedure based on sexual behavior, not sexual orientation. Prospective donors - gay or straight - would be rejected if they had engaged in unprotected sex in the previous 12 months with an HIV-positive person, an illegal drug user, or "an individual of unknown HIV status outside of a monogamous relationship.''

But an FDA spokeswoman cited FDA documents suggesting that officials felt the broader exclusion was prudent even if it affected gay men who practice safe sex.

"The FDA is very much aware that strict exclusion policies eliminate some safe donors,'' said one document.

Many doctors and fertility clinics already have been rejecting gay sperm donors, citing the pending FDA rules or existing regulations of the American Society for Reproductive Medicine.

"With an anonymous sperm donor, you can't be too careful,'' said a society spokeswoman, Eleanor Nicoll. "Our concern is for the health of the recipient, not to let more and more people be sperm donors.''

However, some sperm banks, notably in California, have welcomed gay donors. The director of one of them, Alice Ruby of the Oakland-based Sperm Bank of California, said her staff had developed procedures for identifying gay men with an acceptably low risk of HIV.

Gay men are a major donor source at Traiman's Rainbow Flag sperm bank, and he said that practice would continue despite the new rules.

"We're going to continue to follow judicious, careful testing procedures for our clients that even experts within the FDA say is safe,'' said Traiman, referring to the six-month quarantine.

The FDA rules do not prohibit gay men from serving as "directed'' sperm donors. If a woman wishing to become pregnant knows a gay man and asks that he provide sperm for artificial insemination, a clinic could provide that service even if the man had engaged in sex with other men within five years.

However, Traiman said some lesbian couples do not have a gay friend they know and trust well enough to be the biological father of their child, and would thus prefer an anonymous donor.

Dr. Deborah Cohan, an obstetrics and gynecology instructor at the University of California, San Francisco, said some lesbians prefer to receive sperm from a gay donor because they feel such a man would be more receptive to the concept of a family headed by a same-sex couple.

"This rule will make things legally more difficult for them,'' she said. "I can't think of a scientifically valid reason - it has to be an issue of discrimination.''
Discuss.

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Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
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Sounds a bit harsh. I mean, if they want to be gay , it's up to them. They shouldn't be counted any differently from anyone else. That's just another form of racism! I'm probably too young to have the right idea about this, but they can't they tell if people are gay or not - can they?

Anyway, lets see what the rest of you think!

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They try to collect a LOT of information about sperm and egg donors, so that clients can choose what sort of genes they may be getting. I'm sure a donor could conceal homosexuality if they really tried to, but it would require a substantial effort.

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What is the motivation for donating sperm in the first place? I understand there may be some monetary compensation, but it can't be that much, and certainly not enough for me to risk having a child I would have inadvertantly "fathered" running around.

For that matter, aren't sperm banks pretty selective regarding everyone as is? Their clients would certainly have an interest in receiving product from muscle-bound, high-metabolismed, genius Adonises. Most of us on these boards, for example, likely wouldn't pass muster. :)

I looked at the reg, and there are tons of other qualifiers, so I don't think it's entirely built to "stick it to the gays" - the rule doesn't mention this qualifier for discrimination, the draft guidance document does, which doesn't have the force of law. Unsurprisingly, the proposed rule for these regs was published back in 1997, while the draft guidance was published in 2004.

[ Friday, May 06, 2005 11:32: Message edited by: andrew miller ]
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Who is going to admit that they did this? I think that it would be next to impossible to find this out. This article is referring to anonymous donors. People can and will tell you almost anything if they have anonymity. They also will lie blatantly. It is an unenforceable ruling.

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"Anonymous" means that they just donate to the sperm bank, not knowing whether their sperm will ever be used or who it will be used by, not that they don't keep records and information on the donors.

It's as opposed to "directed" sperm donation, where you specifically ask someone to donate the sperm that are to be implanted in you.
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It's probably due in part to the overwhelming number of people who still can't cope with the idea of gay people even existing. Some people probably still think it can be inherited.

quote:
Originally written by andrew miller:

Most of us on these boards, for example, likely wouldn't pass muster. :)
And that's just cruel.

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Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Ephesos:

Some people probably still think it can be inherited.
I think this would also be interesting to discuss. Is being gay a genetic thing? Supposedly if you are 'born' gay then it must be written in your genes and therefore passable to the next generation. Is there any evidence that a 'gay gene' exsists? If it does then women should have the right to at least choose if they wanted a donation from a gay or straight man. If it does not then does the 'born gay' issue even hold water?

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If there is a gay gene, you'd think it wouldn't have lasted very darn long.

My opinion is that it's psychological.

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From my understanding of it, it's thought that genetically you can have a predisposition for it, but it isn't absolutely determined by genes. So genetic and enviornmental factors are probably both important.

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There are all kinds of genes that seem like they should disappear. Tay-Sachs disease, for example, can't be transmitted by anyone with the phenotype because they don't live nearly long enough. It's transmitted entirely through heterozygous carriers. If the "gay" gene were a simple recessive gene, it could stay in the population for a while. Also keep in mind that many homosexuals do have and have had families and children, especially historically. Societal pressure is a terrible thing.

For a better example, look at cystic fibrosis. It's extraordinarily prevalent for a lethal phenotype. What makes it so common? I don't know, but I would bet that it, like the sickle-cell anemia allele, has some benefit to heterozygous carriers that evolutionarily outweighs the disadvantage.

None of the evidence for genetic predisposition towards homosexuality or heterosexuality supports anything nearly as simple as a single gene, recessive or dominant, but that can at least explain how a seemingly disadvantageous trait (from a reproductive standpoint) can spread in a population.

—Alorael, who would like to point out that AL's comment suggests a belief in microevolution. Darwin will have his due! Okay, sorry, but it had to be said.
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quote:
Originally written by Sic transit mundus.:

For a better example, look at cystic fibrosis. It's extraordinarily prevalent for a lethal phenotype. What makes it so common? I don't know, but I would bet that it, like the sickle-cell anemia allele, has some benefit to heterozygous carriers that evolutionarily outweighs the disadvantage.
Current thinking is that being heterozygous for cystic fibrosis provides partial protection against certain bacterial infections, such as typhoid fever and cholera, which take advantage of the CFTR protein (encoded by the gene for cystic fibrosis) in various ways to cause disease.

Now, moving back on topic, I should add that twin concordance studies (comparing how often pairs of identical twins are both homosexual relative to pairs of non-identical twins) have had mixed results and generally suggested a fairly modest genetic contribution to homosexuality.

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Thuryl, you've heard of the lab rat study in the 70's where the mother was exposed to stressful conditions, right?

Essentially, the gist of it is that mothers who were exposed to stressful conditions during pregnancy released a hormone mid-pregnancy that suppressed the effects of testosterone in mental development by way of outsourcing. Offspring of the stressed mothers exhibitied receptive (female) sexual behavior, despite their being genetically male. The conclusion of this study would be that homosexuality is a natural population control- see, for instance, Lemmings. With respect to homosexual tendencies, because Creator is right for once insomuch as a gay "gene" wouldn't last very long, my hunch is that there is not a gene strictly for homosexuality but rather one for propensity to be affected by the hormones.

Here's hoping Stuggie (the biochem major) can shed some light into this situation.

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Yes, I've heard of the "stressed rat" study, although I wasn't aware of the details. It's not implausible. There's plenty of evidence that whatever the major factors influencing sexual orientation are, they start acting in early childhood if not sooner.

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If you are gay and oyu contracted HIV from some-one, you are not able to donate sperm for five years. Wouldn't it of left your system in that time? And wouldn't you of not got it if you wore a condom?

I think that those rules are a bit drastic, but no doubt will be effective. As andrew miller (I think) said, there are plenty more men willing to donate sperm, and possibly with a lot of gays off the waiting list, they can make as much as they want. But, what difference will it make wether the sperm a couple (or lesbians) use is from a gay or a straight?

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quote:
Originally written by Sprung Spring:

If you are gay and oyu contracted HIV from some-one, you are not able to donate sperm for five years. Wouldn't it of left your system in that time? And wouldn't you of not got it if you wore a condom?
Whoa. The prohibition is not if you contracted HIV in the past five years, it's if you had gay sex in the past five years (even if you used protection). If you test positive for HIV, you can't donate at all -- HIV is not something that "leaves your system", ever. The virus just keeps multiplying and your immune system weakens until in 10 years or so you die of an opportunistic infection.

The problem they're trying to address is that in some cases, it can take as many as 6 months after you actually contract HIV before HIV tests return positive results. So they're trying to eliminate groups who are supposedly at high risk for sexually transmissible infections.

[ Friday, May 06, 2005 21:29: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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quote:
Originally written by Sic transit mundus.:

—Alorael, who would like to point out that AL's comment suggests a belief in microevolution. Darwin will have his due! Okay, sorry, but it had to be said.
I make no secret of the fact that I think the genetic makeup of populations can change somewhat over time - that much is pretty obvious. I'm just sceptical that these changes could make men and elephants and kangaroos out of single-celled organisms.

In other words, it didn't have to be said. :P

Edit: On topic, there's also the possibility that homosexuality can be caused by different, unrelated factors. I feel confident that at least some cases are psychological, but that's not to say others aren't caused by a hormone imbalance or something.

[ Friday, May 06, 2005 22:41: Message edited by: Ash Lael ]

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quote:
Originally written by Ash Lael:

Edit: On topic, there's also the possibility that homosexuality can be caused by different, unrelated factors. I feel confident that at least some cases are psychological, but that's not to say others aren't caused by a hormone imbalance or something.
The line between "psychological" and "hormonal" isn't one that can be cleanly drawn. Psychosocial events cause changes in biochemical functioning and vice versa. It's probably never going to be possible to look at particular cases and say whether they were caused originally by a psychosocial event, a biochemical idiosyncrasy, or some combination of the two.

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If homosexuality does have pre-partum hormonal origins, then calling homosexuality "non-natural" and furthering the theory that it's largely sociological is a great way to turn it into a disease to be treated.

Of course, you can always state that all sexuality must possess fecundity as the Church does- of course, the Church also says that infertile women are much more "open to life" than homosexuals, which seems to speak of- dare I say it- a heterocentric bias! Eh.

[ Saturday, May 07, 2005 06:00: Message edited by: Kirk Johnson ]

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quote:
Originally written by Kirk Johnson:

Of course, you can always state that all sexuality must possess fecundity as the Church does- of course, the Church also says that infertile women are much more "open to life" than homosexuals, which seems to speak of- dare I say it- a heterocentric bias! Eh.
The Church, though, has a few examples of infertile women from the Bible to help draw that conclusion. There is only one example of a homosexual realtionship that was not explicitly frowned on and even that can be argued to be nothing of the sort.(Jonathan and David) I also would disagree that the Church states that all sexuality must possess fecundity instead all sexuality must be within marriage. I mean what happens after menopause? Or after a hysterectomy? No sex then, too? I doubt any church says anything of the sort.

Also, if being gay is soley from hormone imbalances or a psychological disposition then it has to be classified as a 'treatable disease' because both suggest something wrong with what shold be. The only way for it not to be treatable is if it is truly genetic and part of the DNA makeup one is born with. Any other underlying cause makes is treatable.

[ Saturday, May 07, 2005 13:50: Message edited by: Jewels of the Forest ]

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quote:
Originally written by Jewels of the Forest:

Also, if being gay is soley from hormone imbalances or a psychological disposition then it has to be classified as a 'treatable disease' because both suggest something wrong with what shold be. The only way for it not to be treatable is if it is truly genetic and part of the DNA makeup one is born with. Any other underlying cause makes is treatable.
Not necessarily. Having a limb amputated isn't a genetic disorder, but it isn't treatable either.

In any case, even if it could be treated, should it be? There are plenty of medical conditions which could be considered abnormalities in the strict sense of the word, but aren't routinely treated (even if treatment is available) because they don't cause any particular harm.

[ Saturday, May 07, 2005 15:17: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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It's a hormonal imbalance at development- that is to say, it assists in forming your body. Once you have those features, you're done. (Homosexuals, for instance, have larger social areas of the brain than normal males, much like females.) For instance, if your mom injects "big ear" hormones into her womb whilst you're developing, you'll come out looking like Ross Perot, and there ain't a damned thing in the world you can do about it.

As for why it shouldn't be cured? Apart from irrational bigotry that a bearer will have to suffer (and at that point, why not cure the diseases of blackness and emotive capacity?), it's a natural population control.

And puh-leeze don't doubt my ecclesiastical rearing. The three tenets to the sacrament of marriage, outside of which sexuality is not permitted, are fidelity, permanence, and openness to new life. The third tenet is the reason why the church frowns on the use of contraceptives and also homosexuality. If you are going to insist that a woman whose uterus was removed as a result of cancer being allowed to marry shows that fecundity is not a black and white determinant of openness to new life, then you are very correct (and also not particularly observant). What I am saying is that the catholic church is choosing its own readings of its own dogma for the purpose of gay-bashing, as it has clearly demonstrated its ability to bend the rules with examples of infertile women.

To put this in simpler terms, the church considers homosexuality to be intrinsically evil because it is a sexual act not open to life. Sex between a man and a woman who cannot give birth (even in the "natural family planning" asscovering the church provides) has the same exact biological ramifications. Attempting to deny homosexuals the unitive aspect of a sexual relationship is difficult to explain without resorting to bigotry.

Oh yeah, just as a point of reference- Sarai and Israel's barren wife only had intercourse with Abram and Jacob after an angel flew down from heaven and assured the couple as a prophecy that she would bear a child. This message is typically not given after a woman has a uterectomy. :P Unless you're going to deny the plausibility of scripture to justify theology, then using that as a point is moot. (I can't remember the name of Jacob's wife offhand. Biblical literature was three years ago.)

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To put it another way, if God can miraculously make a menopausal woman pregnant, he can miraculously make a man pregnant too.

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How the hell did they know the women were barren if they didn't have sex? You're just plain nuts. Genesis 30 pretty much spells it out explicitly, to the point where Jacob's wives are trading nights with him.

How are we supposed to take you seriously when you say stuff like that?

This is one point where I disagree with Catholic theology. I see nothing wrong with contraceptive use. I think the idea behind Catholic thinking is less "no sex without babies" and more "no playing God". I could be very wrong though, I never really understood their POV.

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quote:
Originally written by Ash Lael:

This is one point where I disagree with Catholic theology. I see nothing wrong with contraceptive use. I think the idea behind Catholic thinking is less "no sex without babies" and more "no playing God". I could be very wrong though, I never really understood their POV.
No, it really is "no sex without babies", for the most part. According to Catholic theology, the sexual act exists primarily for the purpose of conception. "No babies without sex" is applicable as well -- IVF is right out.

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