Affirmative Action
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| Author | Topic: Affirmative Action |
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Agent
Member # 27
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written Sunday, May 1 2005 20:18
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Affirmative action is a touchy subject. Those born wealthy tend to stay wealthy, and those born otherwise, namely minorities, have a hard time rising up in society. I see affirmative action as a great step forward in granting those without any advantages in life, a chance to succeed. However, minorities aren't the only ones who suffer from inherent [materialistic] disadvantages. There is also the problem of excluding qualified people based on race, namely whites. Why should a more-qualified white student be rejected from a college based on his racial background? I thought this board could use another debate topic, and I'm also doing an ELP project on this subject. I wanted to see different public opinions on the principles of affirmative action. Discuss. Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Sunday, May 1 2005 20:27
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That's not entirely true. People born into poverty can either with some luck work their way out. Or if they're smart sell drugs or grow marijuana. There's huge money in weed if you're smart about it. Believe me huge easy money. Although I'm sure in the US there's really harsh penalties for any drug related offenses. As for affirmative action, no I don't think any position should be given out based upon race gender etc. -------------------- I stop rubber at 160km/h, five times a week. CANUCKS RESPEK! My Style The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5450
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written Sunday, May 1 2005 21:16
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quote:I don't think they should. It doesn't matter whether people are poor or rich, every-one deserves a fair chance in life. -------------------- I'll put a Spring in your step. Polaris Posts: 2396 | Registered: Saturday, January 29 2005 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Sunday, May 1 2005 21:57
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Of couse, the opposite view of that is that the black kid grew up in a disadvantaged situation and is only less qualified because his parents weren't able to afford the education that the white kid got from his folks, so therefore basing such decisions purely on ability is causing a 'rich get richer, poor get poorer' situation. While I have a certain amount of sympathy for that point of view, I think that a person is much more than the product of his circumstances. I think it's the responsibility of each person to deal with the variables of his/her life more than it is the government's. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, May 1 2005 22:20
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In my opinion, affirmative action is the wrong solution to the right problem. Robust social welfare and anti-discrimination systems work more fairly in the long run. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Sunday, May 1 2005 22:29
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The way I see it, we have the choice between affirmative action and reparations. Gee. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, May 1 2005 22:39
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I'll admit the USA's in a somewhat different situation, in that many of their disadvantaged minority groups were either living there for a few millennia or brought there in chains; in either case, they were disadvantaged through no choice of their own by Anglo-European settlement. Most of our disadvantaged minority groups, by contrast, originally immigrated here on their own (we've killed off pretty much all our indigenous people already). Oh, and if that's what it really comes down to, I'd prefer reparations. A one-off event (or at least one occurring within a predefined scale) has much less chance of becoming a political hot potato, even if it ends up leaving the nation a little more drowned in debt than it already is. [ Sunday, May 01, 2005 22:45: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5450
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written Sunday, May 1 2005 22:57
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quote:They havn't really been 'killed off' in Australia: they have just moved away. Mainly to where I live. -------------------- I'll put a Spring in your step. Polaris Posts: 2396 | Registered: Saturday, January 29 2005 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Sunday, May 1 2005 23:11
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While a lot of them were killed, 'pretty much all' is a gross exaggeration. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, May 1 2005 23:14
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I'm not saying they were all deliberately killed off. But proportionately, there are far fewer of them than there were when we got here -- especially compared to the number of native Americans remaining in the USA. Those indigenous Australians who do remain certainly consitute a severely disadvantaged group, though; I'm sure you yourself are aware of the rather disappointing statistics on indigenous Australian life expectancy, socioeconomic status and so on. I'm not entirely sure we should do anything about it, though. If we just wait a while longer, in a few generations they'll all have died off, while if we try to improve their lives the problem will become a chronic one. (No, that's not what I really believe, but I always feel a little uneasy when I make a political post that doesn't advocate some form of genocide.) [ Sunday, May 01, 2005 23:16: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5450
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written Sunday, May 1 2005 23:19
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quote:A reason why there is far fewer from when we got here is because of back then some would of mated (God it seems like I'm talking about animals here) with the white people that arrived. In turn that child might have a child with another white, therefore getting less and less Aboriginal blood in them. And yes, I am aware of them statistics. -------------------- I'll put a Spring in your step. Polaris Posts: 2396 | Registered: Saturday, January 29 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, May 1 2005 23:29
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quote:That isn't really a defence, you know. Attempting to get indigenous Australians to breed themselves out of existence by dispersing them throughout society was a deliberate government policy. It might not have been so bad if it hadn't been obvious from the outset that it was doomed to cause more problems than it solved. [ Sunday, May 01, 2005 23:30: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5450
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written Sunday, May 1 2005 23:43
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Back when there was no Government, however, there was such thing as love. Although, James Cook may not of allowed it. Maybe their child production rate has just slowed down. -------------------- I'll put a Spring in your step. Polaris Posts: 2396 | Registered: Saturday, January 29 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, May 1 2005 23:59
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*laughs bitterly* -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2210
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written Monday, May 2 2005 01:13
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Reparations simply are not going to happen. People have fantasies about it. I'll get money because my great great grandmother was a slave and I deserve land and tax breaks because of it. Not going to happen. It would require free land that could be given away. The government isn't about to give land or cash away. Affirmative action is a necessity because of unequal treatment. It does not just apply to schools and work. Where it is most overlooked is the ability to get loans and money to start businesses and build homes. For a long time capital simply was not available for minorities to start a business or build a home. Banks discriminated heavily in who could get money. Right now, based on statistics minorities pay higher interest rates on home, car, and business loans. This led to incredible inequities. Outsiders owning the businesses and land in poor neighborhoods and not bothering to renovate or maintain them because of low rents. What a misnomer. Drugs are not an easy way to make money. The smarts ones make the money then move sideways into real estate or business. It takes brains to run both a business and a drug operation at the same time. However, most believe they are smart and end up in jail or dead. Every year increases your chance of getting caught. The more flamboyant, the greater the target. The other fast money is jewelry (gem merchants) , gun sales, real estate and law. There is another one-- appraisal of high value items-- commercial real estate, antiques, etc. But this takes time and apprenticeship. [ Monday, May 02, 2005 05:42: Message edited by: Toasted Basilisk on a Shish Kebab ] -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, May 2 2005 01:41
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quote:Of course, all of those require considerable investment: the first three in terms of capital, the last in terms of time. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Monday, May 2 2005 04:31
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Law takes time and capital. They certainly aren't handing anything out for free where I'll be going! :( I like though how practicing law is compared with hawking arms and drugs pretty much in the same breath. :) Law's not just about ambulance chasing and class action suits, you know. Real estate can be fast money, but it's entirely dependent upon interest rates - once Alan Greenspan starts raising the rates, the U.S. market will cool off big time. I am for affirmative action. If our society were a pure meritocracy, then maybe AA wouldn't be necessary, but we're fooling ourselves if we believe it is. [ Monday, May 02, 2005 04:32: Message edited by: andrew miller ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4445
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written Monday, May 2 2005 08:51
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I am of Hispanic descent. However, the particular Hispanics from which I am descended happen to be Mexican aristocracy and Cuban bourgeoisie who got out before their respective revolutions got ugly. To top it all off, my mother is white. Thus, I am essentially a middle class, suburban white kid, and yet every other day I'm getting mail or hearing from the guidance department about some scholarship for Hispanic-Americans for which I am eligible. For now, affirmative action is excellent (What can I say? Gotta look out for numero uno). Once my college is paid for, however, it seems to me that the government should actually make an effort to identify and give aid to disadvantaged people, instead of relying on stereotypes - "Oh, black/hispanic people are poor; let's hand stuff out to them." Replace "black/hispanic" with "poor" and you've got yourself a much better policy. EDIT: Yeah, anti-discrimination laws. Those are actually necessary. [ Monday, May 02, 2005 08:54: Message edited by: PoD person ] Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4506
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written Monday, May 2 2005 09:27
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I'm half-mexican, half-dutch. Even though the last time I was in Mexico was 13 years ago, I feel really sorry for what they have to go through (considering that my dad sometimes talks about it helps me feel sorry). But the point is that those poor countries need our help, just as much as minorities, and immigrants and all that. Yet it isn't going to happen. A huge country such as the US, which is probably THE richest country in the world, gave less money for the Tsunami appeal than us lot in the UK, and that was with the entire world in shock and horror over what happened. No-one wants to give money to other people, but that's the only way for "reparations" and all of that. People will keep on discriminating against others until osmeone puts a stop to it, but no-one will, because they all have their own cosy little lives to think about. They don't actually care what "the minority" needs, all they care about is their own creature comforts. I know I would go crazy without a TV etc, and I wouldn't give it up so someone else can buy some blankets to eat, even though I care about those things. At the moment, the best solution is making businesses and the people who matter accept minorities. That way, other people will have to do the same eventually. Ofcourse, this is a very lenghty process, so is for the most part ignored right now. - Archmagi Micael A QUESTION: Which one of you - HONESTLY - would give up your TV or computer, so someone you've never met can eat once a week.??? -------------------- "You dare Trifle with Exile?" - Erika the Archmage -------------------- My Scenarios: Undead Valley : A small Undead problem, what could possibly go wrong? -------------------- Proof of Richard Black's existance: Richard Black - PROOF of his existance (the Infernal one's website). Posts: 1370 | Registered: Thursday, June 10 2004 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 27
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written Monday, May 2 2005 09:35
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If selling my computer meant feeding someone else once a week for the rest of their lives, then yes, I would sell it. Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, May 2 2005 12:05
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The problem with reparations is that it is almost guaranteed to be unhelpful in the long term and not even very helpful in the short term. Poor people of any ethnicity tend to have trouble managing windfalls. At least affirmative action is a way to make sure aid is productive. That said, I still think affirmative action is the wrong way to solve the problem. A better system in general for helping the poor would go a long way and it wouldn't be such a charged issue. —Alorael, who has come to terms with the fact that he could lower his standard of living and give the extra money to charitable causes but doesn't. He would sell his computer, but only because he could earn the money to buy another (which he in fact intends to do soon). He would not give up all money earmarked for computer-related expenditures he ever earned. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, May 2 2005 12:39
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quote:If a large number of people would do so voluntarily with no incentive, we wouldn't need governments, now would we? -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Monday, May 2 2005 12:40
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I frequently give to charity, but have not bought myself a computer yet. Does that count? :P I still think Thuryl is exaggerating. There are tons of Aboriginals in Australia. Just not very many in the capital cities. Whether that's because they feel a greater connection to their heritage in places like Bourke or some other reason, I don't know. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5450
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written Monday, May 2 2005 13:00
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quote:People may be shocked to hear that becasue they watch too much Law And Order (which is a good show, I might say ;) ). I agree with Ash though, last time I went to Melbourne I seen pretty much no Aborigines around. They prefer to stick to the areas that their grand-fathers, grand-mothers etc. lived. -------------------- I'll put a Spring in your step. Polaris Posts: 2396 | Registered: Saturday, January 29 2005 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Monday, May 2 2005 14:46
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Reparations are just an idle thought that happened to be spoken out loud in the wrong company. It would be impossible to calculate the damage done to a culture by the incursion of a stronger culture. I strongly suggest "guns, germs, and steel" by Jared Diamond for anyone interested in why civilization is distributed as it is. As to affirmative action, I have a hard time believing that the true intent of the (US) legislation was to disadvantage some truly qualified applications because they happened to be of a certain ethnic group. Like all laws, it has been mangled and LCD'd in order to receive approval from the masses. Our current "enlightened" era of government would like to be forgiven for the errors of the past and to make sure that it never happens again. Eye candy. It will happen again, somewhere on the planet, (perhaps) because it is human nature to conquer and therefore oppress. Drat. Only my 3rd post and already have written a rambling opinion. Forgive me. Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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