Two years to the day.
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Wednesday, March 23 2005 00:21
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quote:The 'aggression' you're talking about is literally so old that the vast majority of people to live while it happened are now dead. So far as the current generation is concerned, the Israelis are freedom fighters trying to keep terrorism in check and the Palestinians are freedom fighters trying to stave off a merciless invading enemy. 'Don't do the crime if you can't do the time' is a good enough thing to say when you're raising a child, but this is different. You have two groups who want to kill each other and each have technically valid reasons to do so; it's time for us to realize that just because there's a reason to hurt someone like the Israelis and Palestinians have been doesn't mean inflicting that pain should be done. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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For Carnage, Apply Within
Member # 95
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written Wednesday, March 23 2005 01:31
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I don't see this as a question of right and wrong, because neither side is what I'd call right. What's more important is that both the Israelis and the Palestinians are behaving in ways that will only extend the conflict, when either side could bring it to an end if they had a genuine commitment to peace. Posts: 567 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Wednesday, March 23 2005 02:31
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quote:I believe at present that the palestineans could do so only if they would reach some military balance with Israel or staging a well organized collective exodus from the land they were born in because Israel has a record for not respecting limits that are not backed by force. In addition, I believe that Israel could do so only under credible pressure from the US to balance the internal political pressure of settlers. Imho, adequate compensation and a serious resettlement option for the Palestineans would still be the cheapest way to peace economically, not even counting the humanitarian benefits on all sides. The obstacles are mainly emotional, imho. Central Europe has an serious demographic problem and relieving Israel from the demographic pressure of the faster multiplying Palestinean population could alleviate several problems. [ Wednesday, March 23, 2005 02:49: Message edited by: No 2 Methylphenidate ] Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Wednesday, March 23 2005 02:42
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The pressure is perhaps not even that essential. A simple cut in military aid would do the trick just fine - Israel is armed to the teeth already, and disproportionately powerful for its size. That alone is bound to create an imbalance. And you can't have peace without balance. Edit: quote:So they are. If war (that is, the reasons for war, not the conduction of war) was based on reason, it would be nearly extinct. Reason is a weak force in the face of emotion, especially hatred. [ Wednesday, March 23, 2005 02:44: Message edited by: A ship then new they built for him ] -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1249
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written Wednesday, March 23 2005 03:38
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quote:It's interesting. Is it even possible to separate reason and emotion? Which one comes first? Fear of death may be part of our "rational" thinking and sometimes lead to irrational things. I think. Well, I admit I haven't visited Gaza refugee camps. Though actually I (sort of) know people (Finns) who came back from there a few weeks ago. It will be interesting to hear about their experiences when they come to Turku next month. ...Anyway, the idea of a total war (with a country or group) is, in a way, impossible. You can't separate and kill or hunt down all members and no one else but the members of a group. Neither could I accept the idea that my house would be bombed just because a suspicious guy lived next door. Posts: 259 | Registered: Saturday, June 1 2002 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Wednesday, March 23 2005 04:58
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Milu wrote: quote:Emotion comes first both in ontogenesis (development of the individual) - as every parent will tell you - as well as in phylogenesis (development of the species). Reason requires more than communication namely the ability to leave one's subjective point of view and adopt (or at least strive to adopt) some more general point of view which is acceptable to your communication partner. In the situation between Israel and the Palestineans where communication is often reduced to nonverbal violence whether bulldozing homes, building a wall, destroying wells, or suicide attacks, there is no basis for reasoning because the realities that both communities have established for themselves are incompatible. If you read Rachel Corrie's account (just click on her picture in Aran's post (1st post in this thread), you realise how the reality conveyed by US-news services differs from the reality that Corrie found in Palestine when she came there. She clung to the hope of a common "human" point of view where deliberate eye-to-eye killing of an unarmed civilian is taboo and risked to die rather than run. Make your own judgement. [ Wednesday, March 23, 2005 05:17: Message edited by: No 2 Methylphenidate ] Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Wednesday, March 23 2005 22:03
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quote:That is the criterium by which I would judge the fear of death to be irrational. It is based on an instinctive urge to survive, and it takes into account only the individual's situation. Based on instinct, *my* survival would be preferrable to that of a dozen other people. It is reason which can cause us to develop "selflessness". [ Thursday, March 24, 2005 03:53: Message edited by: A ship then new they built for him ] -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1249
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written Friday, March 25 2005 19:57
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quote:I was talking more about our way of thinking, about how we form "rational" thoughts every day in different situations. Fear of death is just one example of emotion, love could be another. Emotion and rational thought do not have to exclude each other. My point was something like this: our culture has the habit of separating things - and ways of thinking - into rationality and emotion. However, Some things can't be explained with "pure" reason (I mean, rationality); another thing is that the "opposite" side uses its own reasoning from its own viewpoint. For example, those who declare wars always have reasons to give to at least some of their communication partners. Usually they seem to be something like: "We have to protect these people from that dangerous group of people." Both warmongers and peacemakers have emotions. In fact, what is reason without emotion? For example, why do we have goals? Of course there is always also the false information and nobody knows everything. We make choices, which our world views and values affect. We choose what to do and what not to do. Those who declare wars and participate in them, choose, among other things, to kill people (or have people killed). quote:There are the same kind of people in Palestine and Israel as in any country, that is, their views vary a lot on what's going on. I respect very much what peace activists - Palestinian, Israeli and foreign - are trying to do in the region. Though I have heard that they may sometimes be hated, it's an important work to create alternatives. [ Friday, March 25, 2005 20:10: Message edited by: Milu ] Posts: 259 | Registered: Saturday, June 1 2002 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5287
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written Thursday, March 31 2005 08:54
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The woman who died should not have been killed, but I still don't think it was intentional. As for the Palestinans, they are pawns being used by Arab contries to get rid of Israel. They are taught in school that the greatest thing they can do for their people is blow themselves up. Israel has made bad decisions, such as maccecuring an Arab village during the war of independence, but that dosn't justify the suicide bombings that are going on. I hope that Abbas really wants to make peace, and not take advantage of his people like Arafat did. BTW, I do not support Dubya -------------------- yeah... Posts: 13 | Registered: Monday, December 13 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Thursday, March 31 2005 11:00
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Israel has suicide bombers too, you know. They're both committing atrocities, hence this discussion. -------------------- The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) Famous Last Words - A local pop-punk band They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 5219
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written Thursday, March 31 2005 13:50
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I think you should support the president of the US, even if you don't like him. It's disgusting to see that half of america doesn't respect their leader. As for israelis and palestinians, I say let them wipe each other out. They'll eventually run out of suicide bombers. -------------------- You can take my Windows XP when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 394 | Registered: Saturday, November 20 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, March 31 2005 13:58
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Respect is earned, not given. I respect the office of the presidency. I have no respect at all for the man who currently holds the office and who seems determined to subvert even the Constitution in his quest for whatever he's after. —Alorael, who doesn't think it's right to condemn a country and a former country because of their extremists. On the other hand, they are both too filled with extremist leadership to come to any reasonable compromise: as long as there is a state of Israel there will be suicide bombers, and as long as there are suicide bombers Israelis will feel unwilling to make any concessions. The leadership is probably more of a problem than the average citizen now. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 1817
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written Thursday, March 31 2005 19:18
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Has anyone here respected a president and his decisions in their lifetime? Seems to me it is not the person in charge that is the problem, but all the groups influencing that person are the problem. If the president said that he was going to halt all support for Israel, it is likely he would lose office very quickly. The political forces in the united states that favor israel are staggering. It is in fact considered one of those political loaded topics, one that is certain to blow up on you if you attempt to change in any way the present policies. Posts: 560 | Registered: Saturday, August 31 2002 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Thursday, March 31 2005 21:13
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quote:SIEG HEIL MEIN PRÄSIDENT!!! Happy now? :rolleyes: If there is any difference in respect for a common person and a leader, it is the leader who deserves less implicit respect. The leader is the one who has to prove himself worthy of trust. Someone is a leader because you trust him. That does not mean you must trust him because he is a leader. As for the "wipe each other out" - apathy keeps you alive, yes. But it does not help the rest of the world one bit. [ Thursday, March 31, 2005 21:17: Message edited by: Are run? Kite are. ] -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 5219
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written Friday, April 1 2005 04:24
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It doesn't matter. No matter what anyone says, there will always be people who hate our president, no matter who they are. Many times, sadly, because they're democrat or republican. But that's another story. -------------------- You can take my Windows XP when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 394 | Registered: Saturday, November 20 2004 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5287
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written Friday, April 1 2005 04:59
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quote:That's news to me. Link? -------------------- yeah... Posts: 13 | Registered: Monday, December 13 2004 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, April 1 2005 05:02
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Read the news. It's not hard to find. Ideally international news, since U.S. news tends to paper over that fact. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Friday, April 1 2005 13:22
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http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=israeli+suicide+bombers&btnG=Search+News Please find. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy desperance.net - We're Everywhere ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Friday, April 1 2005 14:22
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It is interesting though that international legislation acknowledges the right of occupied people to use force against their oppressors, both inside the occupied territories and outside them. Based upon the principles of the Hague International Convention of 1907 and confirmed in the Nuremberg Tribunal after World War II, this determination was essential to forestall Nazi claims that partisans, Ghetto fighters, and other underground resistance forces in the territories occupied by Germany had allegedly been 'terrorists'. In the Nuremberg Tribunal it was unequivocally set down that resistance fighters, including those who had struggled within Germany itself, acted in accordance with the regulations of international law. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5287
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written Saturday, April 2 2005 08:26
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I still can't find anything. A google search dosn't help. I'd really appriciate a link to a spacific article. -------------------- yeah... Posts: 13 | Registered: Monday, December 13 2004 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Saturday, April 2 2005 08:33
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quote:I'm with you. That was directed at Kelandon. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy desperance.net - We're Everywhere ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Saturday, April 2 2005 08:38
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I don't have a specific link -- but even if ADoS and I were wrong, I think it's safe to say that their army is committing atrocities fairly regularly anyway, and THAT is not too hard to find. The beginning of this thread is has one example of that. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Saturday, April 2 2005 08:40
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Yes, well, such is war. If they didn't want trouble, they should never have messed with Israel. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy desperance.net - We're Everywhere ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Shake Before Using
Member # 75
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written Saturday, April 2 2005 08:49
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I've searched through about fifteen pages of Google stuff and haven't found a single verifiable piece of news on it. ... Okay, I found one mention of an Israeli suicide bomber, but a moment of research into it reveals that he massacred 29 people in a mosque using a hand grenade and a machinegun, not a bomb strapped to him. Whether or not he died during this wasn't stated, and I didn't feel like looking it up. [ Saturday, April 02, 2005 08:50: Message edited by: Imban ] Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Saturday, April 2 2005 09:03
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quote:Is that to suggest that the Palestinians are entirely at fault for the Israeli-Palestine conflict? -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |